83 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

I know. With how hard it can be to identify abominations, you'd think it would be more secure to keep all the mages in an enclosure of some kind. Maybe a tower out on a lake? Maybe a ... circular building of some kind?

 

But that's totally useless. Because they could all become abominations, then just massacre the meatsuits, and then you have an army of demons overrun templars. 

 

A circle is a totally useless building if it does nothing but provide a central base of operations for a demon army, sorrounded by a group of meatsuits who have no ability whatsoever to fight them. 

[thats1evildude]

Oh, templars can fight demons and abominations OK. But containing that threat is another matter entirely.

[AnimalBoy]

Mages. Always side with the mages.

[ArcaneEsper]

I mean I've played both and in my opinion there's nothing in either mission that trumps the other story wise. Alexius and Envy both sorta felt a bit flat to me because there was nothing intimidating about them as characters. Sure one's a demon and another a Magister with time magic but there's nothing particularly scary or threatening about them.

Though I'll admit IHW ties in the Emerald Graves and Emprise du Lion much better but CotJ gives us Calpernia (along with her quest) and Barris (along with his War Table missions) and for me the payoff of going with the Templars is much better.

Though at the end of the day all this is purely about preference. Objectively speaking there is no "superior one"

[fhs33721]

I know. With how hard it can be to identify abominations, you'd think it would be more secure to keep all the mages in an enclosure where they could be watched? Maybe a tower out on a lake? Maybe a ... circular building of some kind?

Might actually be a worthwhile argument if the Templars weren't already completely horrible at their job while the circle system was still intact. But they always sucked at their job.

 

In DA:O There is a demon infested Orphanage in the middle of Denerim and they sent one blind dude, who dies.

Also there is a huge blood mage hideout also in the middle of Denerim and they send one dude, who also dies.

And let's not forget that Jowan first esily escaped the Circle, the escapes again when they send one dude to recapture him, a known bloodmage, and Loghain bails him out and the one dude they send surprisingly not dies but just becomes a vegetable.

Also the Circle gest overrun by demons, most of the templars died/became possessed as well and they had to call reinforcements from Denerim (That probably wouldn't have helped either, since at this point I'm convinced the headquarter in Denerim would most likely decide to send just one dude ).

In DA2 it doesn't get better, As there are tons of bloodmages and even more demons running around outside the Circle while Merediths templars are apparently too busy beating up the mages that are already contained in their circle to do anything about it.

Their recruits get possessed by demons and nobody suspects that until one of them transforms into a demonic form right in front of Cullen.

The first enchanter is able to exchange letters with and bloodmage.

The blood mage mentioned above is investigated by .... you guessed it... one dude, who then dies.

Some of the templars actively work toghether with blood mages in Act 3, and then die while doing so.

And a whole bunch of blood mages escaped from the circle during the course of DA2.

And when an apostate mage/abomination blows up the chantry they decide to kill every mage, except the one that blew up the chantry, and some of the mages escape anyways.

[Lumix19]

I thought Champions of the Just was pretty good. The only thing was that the reveal of Corypheus' plan to kill Celene and the demon army was a bit contrived. Envy was pretty stupid for revealing all that.
In Hushed Whispers didn't have the dark psychological thrill of Champions but at least the reveal of Corypheus' plan seemed more organic.

[Addictress]

The year timeskip is merely there for dramatic purposes. Given the speed at which red lyrium grows, they were only exposed to it relatively close to the time you appear in the future. The companions weren't all that there anyway, but were snapped back to reality by the sight of you.

The mental decay also happens over a very long period. It took Meredith 3 years or so to go completely mental. It also took Bartrand 3 years to go fully mental as well, in case you forgot. Unless of course you believe that Bartrand sacrificed his entire entourages and hired new ones several times before your confrontation.

Also red Templars exposed to reasonable amounts of red lyrium still have their mental acuity.

Regarding Bartrand, you can see the idol glowing as if it were activated when Bartrand touched it. Given the idols special significance, perhaps it is a channel for the living red lyrium to exert its will. Who knows, but it clearly a tool and not a random chunk of red lyrium. Notice how it also glows near Varric, but not as persistently as when Hawke touches it. When he does he manages to overpower it. Perhaps it is more attuned to dwarves?

Are you looking for a plot hole or something, cause you haven't really found one. I can give you a few if you really want to gnaw on for your Dragon Age Hate therapy sessions.

Here

This is an adequate explanation that averts my wrath.

[Addictress]

Might actually be a worthwhile argument if the Templars weren't already completely horrible at their job while the circle system was still intact. But they always sucked at their job.

In DA:O There is a demon infested Orphanage in the middle of Denerim and they sent one blind dude, who dies.
Also there is a huge blood mage hideout also in the middle of Denerim and they send one dude, who also dies.
And let's not forget that Jowan first esily escaped the Circle, the escapes again when they send one dude to recapture him, a known bloodmage, and Loghain bails him out and the one dude they send surprisingly not dies but just becomes a vegetable.
Also the Circle gest overrun by demons, most of the templars died/became possessed as well and they had to call reinforcements from Denerim (That probably wouldn't have helped either, since at this point I'm convinced the headquarter in Denerim would most likely decide to send just one dude ).
In DA2 it doesn't get better, As there are tons of bloodmages and even more demons running around outside the Circle while Merediths templars are apparently too busy beating up the mages that are already contained in their circle to do anything about it.
Their recruits get possessed by demons and nobody suspects that until one of them transforms into a demonic form right in front of Cullen.
The first enchanter is able to exchange letters with and bloodmage.
The blood mage mentioned above is investigated by .... you guessed it... one dude, who then dies.
Some of the templars actively work toghether with blood mages in Act 3, and then die while doing so.
And a whole bunch of blood mages escaped from the circle during the course of DA2.
And when an apostate mage/abomination blows up the chantry they decide to kill every mage, except the one that blew up the chantry, and some of the mages escape anyways.

I just laughed so deeply
I haven't been so amused in so long :'D
LOLLLLL
Seriously *wiping eyes*

Oh Maker. I'm saving this post on my Fumblr.

[GoldenGail3]

I just laughed so deeply
I haven't been so amused in so long :'D
LOLLLLL
Seriously *wiping eyes*
Oh Maker. I'm saving this post on my Fumblr.

I have a question, if you don't mind me asking. Did you block me? Just curious... I haven't blocked you, lol.

[Addictress]

I have a question, if you don't mind me asking. Did you block me? Just curious... I haven't blocked you, lol.

No, I didn't know you could block on here!

[GoldenGail3]

No, I didn't know you could block on here!

You can block others messages, so I assumed you did the same to me. I'm a bit of a pain in the arse to you....

[thats1evildude]

I'm just struggling with the idea that templars can't sniff out demons. In theory, that would mean that a sufficiently clever group of demons could turn a Circle into, 100% pure, abominations right under the templars noses if they're just careful enough.

Luckily, most demons aren't that clever. Most of them are like, "Huzzah! I'm flesh now! Time for a killing spree!"

But blood mages working in concert with demons? Sure. That's basically what happened in Ferelden.

[GoldenGail3]

Luckily, most demons aren't that clever..

Are you refering to that quest "Those Demons are clever" quest? Were you go hunt down a rebel Mage who has GW Mage armor on him?

[thats1evildude]

Uh, not really.

[GoldenGail3]

Uh, not really.

LOL, okay.

[Tidus]

My character is a mage so,I side with the mages since Templars always enjoyed killing mages or scaring young mages in the Tower.

 

Even in Val the Templars was baddies and thought their selves above all others including the Chantry in which they serve..

 

Nope the jackboot Templars will rot in their red lyrium.

[Knight of Dane]

They could have always done their jobs, what with all the demons running about (and all the action in the Hinterlands). Leaving the commoners out to dry and heading for middle-of-nowhere-Ferelden doesn't seem sane, or advisable, or worth consideration.

 

No but it was the orders of their superiors. Remember that these are people who are meant to obey their superiors regardless of brain function

 

They didn't have to leave their posts in the first place. The Templars at the Hasmal Circle were still receiving Lyrium. Heck, they could have stayed in Val Royeaux if they wanted, where both the Chantry and the locals were practically begging them to act as protection.

 

But no, we'll march for some warlord trying to stake a claim. 

 

You are right, and many did. Barris also explains that many templar groups remain seperate in the mission itself. But this is cow-bell mentality. You leader says that the right course of action is one thing. As you can see on Cullen and Lysette not all reacted the same way. I just don't see it as a fault that some chose to follow the leaders they had been told to obey their whole lives.

 

5) Stay with the fractured Chantry that's desperately in need of your help and protection? 

 

Some did it appears, but remember that the Nevarran Accord were broken, that was what bound them to the chantry. Just as the Inquisitor can express this was a failure of authority. The mages rebelled and no one was stopping them, the chantry remained passive.

[Knight of Dane]

Luckily, most demons aren't that clever. Most of them are like, "Huzzah! I'm flesh now! Time for a killing spree!"

But blood mages working in concert with demons? Sure. That's basically what happened in Ferelden.

 

I still remember that rage demon in the alienage now that you mention their.. demeanor..

 

"Your maker is nothing compared to my GLORY!" *Spawns in a room with broken furniture no light and a pile of corpses*

[Dai Grepher]

Champions has just as many plot holes regarding the templars, including but not limited to how they could miss a demon taking them over, the whole red lyrium bit, all of their officers being comically an corruptly evil, etc. And I can't agree that the Fade feels any more personal. It's a cool concept, but it's as alien as the bad future. I think both quests are underwhelming. 

 

Because it wasn't the demon until later. Lucius was in fact commanding them up until the point when they would begin giving red lyrium to the lower ranks, which is about the time the Herald can show up with the Orlesian lords. Lucius also allowed the Envy Demon to copy him, and even helped it do so.

 

The "whole red lyrium bit" is explained as the higher ranks taking it and demonstrating that there was no harm in doing so.

 

It wasn't all of their officers. Some resisted, and were either killed or were being attacked.

 

The Fade is more abstract and thought-like in CotJ. IHW makes it seem like a total mess. The map isn't consistent with Origins either.
 

[Dai Grepher]

The year timeskip is merely there for dramatic purposes. Given the speed at which red lyrium grows, they were only exposed to it relatively close to the time you appear in the future. The companions weren't all that there anyway, but were snapped back to reality by the sight of you.

The mental decay also happens over a very long period. It took Meredith 3 years or so to go completely mental. It also took Bartrand 3 years to go fully mental as well, in case you forgot. Unless of course you believe that Bartrand sacrificed his entire entourages and hired new ones several times before your confrontation.

Also red Templars exposed to reasonable amounts of red lyrium still have their mental acuity.

 

Except for the fact that Denam will be completely transformed into a Behemoth by the time you close the Breach with the mages. So yes, it can corrupt that fast. Also, it was established in Cassandra's quest that Seekers have a high resistance to red lyrium, and are thus deemed unsuitable for red lyrium corruption. It also shows that they can be corrupted physically in their blood somehow as Daniel states. So not only should Cassandra not be red-eyed, but they should have corrupted her with whatever they did to Daniel.

 

They all would have been exposed to red lyrium immediately after being captured. But the real question is why they were allowed to keep their armor and weapons.

[nightscrawl]

Plot convenience aside, there is a practical reason as well: they have to be more or less functional party members and also provide the proto-Inquisitor with important information. They can't do that if they were as insane as they should be.

 

 

The answer is that In Hushed Whispers is a lot of nonsense and Champions of the Just is infinitely better, so you should side with the templars.

 

Pfft... D o r i a n  P a v u s.

 

I actually do like Alexius and Felix a fair bit, too. In general, I think there is a more personal and emotional vibe to IHW, and a more overarching dangerous and creepy vibe with CotJ. Plot and role-play reasons aside, it's another way for the player to make a choice to play the game as they want to play it, particularly in successive plays. Each mission is so very different from the other that I don't really think any sort of comparison is fair and ultimately comes down to personal preference and however you want to RP.

[Aren]

Meredith's sword was not made with red Lyrium but with red kryptonite,that's why she behaved like superman at the end game.

 

 

[vbibbi]

Templars are supposed to snuff out demons. Sure, other templars were - for entirely insane reasons - on its side, but that's something that makes the Fionna mess look like good writing. That's not really helping the case here. The time magic is "explained", but the explanation is dumb. It's much the same with the templar's mindless following of orders and their general inability to realize that their entire leadership has gone coo-coo for cocopuffs. 

 

I don't see how Envy wanting to BE you is any more personal than Alexius wanting to KILL you. The Fade sequence is a neat concept that ultimately didn't pay off too much for me, and I actually prefer the introduction of Cole in In Your Heart Shall Burn, who I think gives a far better send off to Rodrick. And I prefer the way it portrays the impending threat of Corypheus. 

I think someone wanting to be me is exponentially more personal than wanting to kill me. It involves a degree of intimacy that nothing else in the series has. Trying to take someone's identity is very intrusive, it's very intentional and specific to one person, whereas killing, in this instance, is more to remove a threat/obstacle and less because Alexius has a personal vendetta against the Herald.

[nightscrawl]

^ Perhaps "personal" isn't the correct word in that instance. While I agree about Envy, I think IHW is more... heartbreaking perhaps? because of Alexius and why he's doing it. Alexius was a great man once, and he fell very far after a tragedy in his life. My Inquisitor really can't be pissed at Alexius for trying to kill him. The whole thing just comes across as too pathetic to allow that.

 

That's just my perspective, of course.

[The Baconer]

You are right, and many did. Barris also explains that many templar groups remain seperate in the mission itself. But this is cow-bell mentality. You leader says that the right course of action is one thing. As you can see on Cullen and Lysette not all reacted the same way. I just don't see it as a fault that some chose to follow the leaders they had been told to obey their whole lives.

 

I see it as a fault when said leaders have conspicuously dropped all pretense of actually carrying out the Order's mandate. "Just following orders" can only go so far.