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[greenbrownblue]

Hey there everybody,

 

so I have been recently wondering about how to answer the question Inquisitor asked Solas: "Why this world has to die for the elves to return".

I still do not have a full answer, tho I am trying to base it on my spirit theories (here is 1st & and here is the 2nd) .

 

While crafting a superb demon-slaying rune I realized I needed pure dragon blood. That is weird... So demons are weak against pure dragon blood?

 

Now... Let's think who was forced to drink pure dragon blood .... Oh yes , THE QUNARI! I do not recall any qunari  who has been possessed by a demon and mages are very rare in Qunari society. What is even more interesting is that if a qunari happens to be a mage, it is an EXTREMELY powerful one (saarebas boss fight in the Trespasser DLC was one of the hardest). Why weak qunari mages do not exist?

 

Only people who have a connection to the Fade are capable of magic (fade magic of cuz. blood magic draws power from the blood and taint magic draws from the taint). If dragon blood is like an "antitode" against demons (or spirits - according to Solas they are one and same) who are natural inhabitants and "antidote" against a connection to the Fade, then maybe only truly powerful qunari can overcome this mix of their blood and dragon blood that they have in veins (kinda like our antibodies). It could explain why weak qunari mages do not exist.

 

Anyway, would qunari do fine in a world without the Veil? In my opinion not really, though I see certain advantages. The biggest minus is obviously not being able to use magic, which in a Fade-world is crippling. There are some advantages I see too. Anybody who is not taught how to resist possession and how to live in  a world with spirits is left vulnarable (I guess this is why elves left to find Solas by the end of the Trespasser DLC). Qunari will be more resistant to the natural inhabitants of the Fade.

 

However, in the "dawn of the Seeker", Avexis can command dragons. Could some dragons command the Qunari?  Iron Bull mentions that he felt the dragon speaking to him. Kieran says he noticed Qunari Inquisitor's blood and that "it does not belong to your [Qunari] people" and that he "feels bad for what happened to his [Qunari] people". It almost sounds as if qunari were crippled, not gifted.

 

Ugh, wish David Gaider could drop more hints.

Anyway, as much as I love elven lore, I am not an expert when it comes to the Qunari, so all comments are welcome. Perhaps there is more to it than I am seeing.

[sandalisthemaker]

Well, there will be no more hints from Gaider. 

 

We haven't been exposed to very many Qunari mages so far.  It could be that the Qunari kill mages who seem weak/unable to control their powers.  There have been no examples of saarebas abominations either in-game or in any lore that I am aware of, but the Qunari have a fable that they tell to young Qunari who begin showing magical tendencies. (As shown in WoT vol 2).  

 

In the fable, the saarebas is actively resisting a demon by submitting to the Qun.

 

The fact that the Tamassrans teach this to their children  likely proves that possession is a very real threat for Qunari mages too.

 

It is interesting that dragon blood is needed for a demon slaying rune, but demons being weak to dragon blood doesn't necessarily mean that having dragon blood provides a resistance to demons.  Plus, Hakkon (the high dragon) seemed to be possessed by some sort of spirit. So it appears that dragons can be possessed. 

 

I wonder if demons being weak to dragon blood will be a part of the lore, and not just a crafting mechanic specific to DAI. 

[thats1evildude]

I wouldn't read too much into rune components. I mean, giant spider glands make Dragon-slaying Runes and Corpse Hearts make Cleansing Runes. How the **** does that make any sense?

[greenbrownblue]

I wouldn't read too much into tune components. I mean, giant spider glands make Dragon-slaying Runes and Corpse Hearts make Cleansing Runes. How the **** does that make any sense?

Ir does make sense to me. If you read Orleasian history wyverns are told to be able to even kill a high dragon!!! Wyvern glands are used for dragon slaying rune.

 

For a cleansing runes (that counter tainted creatures) you need corpse/horror/revenant heart (master slaying runes) - all those creatures are DEMON possessed! We know that Black city tains spirits that come to close, nothing is said about demons. From Here Lies the Abyss we know that Grey Wardens (with their "tainted" blood) were vulnarable to Corypheus and his Nightmare general.

Anyway it " *** does make sense" if you try to make some research.

[greenbrownblue]

Well, there will be no more hints from Gaider. 

 

We haven't been exposed to very many Qunari mages so far.  It could be that the Qunari kill mages who seem weak/unable to control their powers.  There have been no examples of saarebas abominations either in-game or in any lore that I am aware of, but the Qunari have a fable that they tell to young Qunari who begin showing magical tendencies. (As shown in WoT vol 2).  

 

In the fable, the saarebas is actively resisting a demon by submitting to the Qun.

 

The fact that the Tamassrans teach this to their children  likely proves that possession is a very real threat for Qunari mages too.

 

It is interesting that dragon blood is needed for a demon slaying rune, but demons being weak to dragon blood doesn't necessarily mean that having dragon blood provides a resistance to demons.  Plus, Hakkon (the high dragon) seemed to be possessed by some sort of spirit. So it appears that dragons can be possessed. 

 

I wonder if demons being weak to dragon blood will be a part of the lore, and not just a crafting mechanic specific to DAI. 

Wait, wait, from what I remember Hakkon was not demon possessed or spirit possessed. It was used as a vessel for an Avvar god, right? So there is no example of demon possession of a dragon.

 

I saw that codex entry about withstanding demon possession too, but it has been written by a Qunari therefore I considered it being as worthy as Dalish writings on the evanuris. After all Qunari will do everything to justify the idea of banning magic in their society.

 

Well, at least both of us do not know any case of a possessed qunari.

 

I am just wondering, this is what David Gaider wrote on this forum:

 

#3 

 David Gaider

Posted 14 September 2010 - 11:53 PM

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Regular people can be possessed by demons, and are still dangerous, but they are not abominations. Abominations have access to a mage's full power -- even a weak mage turned into an abomination is dangerous -- while a possessed human (or possessed anything) is only as dangerous as the demon that did the possessing. 

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Forget the Saarebas - why we never hear anything about "regular" qunari being possessed? 

[Gervaise]

The Avaar gods are simply spirits.   The more powerful spirits are the ones they encourage to occupy a mortal vessel, like the dragon.   Now whether or not you consider the spirit is a demon is I suppose a matter for belief, but essentially the dragon is possessed by a spirit/demon.   When you kill it, the spirit/demon returns to the Fade where is will await its next summoning by the believers who need it.  

 

However, we know that there are two types of possession; willing and unwilling, at least where intelligent creatures are concerned.    In the Hakkon dragon's case it is not clear whether it would be considered an unwilling possession or a willing one or how exactly the spirit is encouraged into the dragon.

 

As for the qunari, they definitely do have possession because that is why they keep such careful watch on their mages and pity them because if they become possessed that is the ultimate loss of self.     I don't think Iron Bull would have had such a thing about demons if he hadn't witnessed fellow qunari become possessed at some point.  Likely it is something that occurs more frequently on Seheron because of the mental strain it seems to put on the qunari there.   However, the leadership would want to play this down and prefer to suggest that they have simply gone Tal'Vashoth rather than they have been possessed.    

[The Baconer]

There is a quest in Dragon Age 2 called The Lost Patrol, in which a Qunari Karataam goes missing in the Wounded Coast. Upon finding their remains, the player is attacked by an Abomination and some Shades. One might inter the Karataam had a Saarebas who got possessed. 

[greenbrownblue]

There is a quest in Dragon Age 2 called The Lost Patrol, in which a Qunari Karataam goes missing in the Wounded Coast. Upon finding their remains, the player is attacked by an Abomination and some Shades. One might inter the Karataam had a Saarebas who got possessed. 

Hummm, good point, tho there are two facts that do not fit this theory. If the Qunari were demon possessed then the bodies would not just lay around (they would be possessed). Also, companions, Hawke, Qunari, DA wikia say nothing about the patrol being possessed.

[KaiserShep]

I wouldn't read too much into tune components. I mean, giant spider glands make Dragon-slaying Runes and Corpse Hearts make Cleansing Runes. How the **** does that make any sense?

Well, we are talking about alchemy here. 

[The Baconer]

Hummm, good point, tho there are two facts that do not fit this theory. If the Qunari were demon possessed then the bodies would not just lay around (they would be possessed). Also, companions, Hawke, Qunari, DA wikia say nothing about the patrol being possessed.

 

The theory is not that the entire patrol was possessed by demons, only the Saarebas attached to the unit. Hence the single Abomination. Said Abomination then attacked the unit and summoned demons. Hence the Shades. 

[greenbrownblue]

The Avaar gods are simply spirits.   The more powerful spirits are the ones they encourage to occupy a mortal vessel, like the dragon.   Now whether or not you consider the spirit is a demon is I suppose a matter for belief, but essentially the dragon is possessed by a spirit/demon.   When you kill it, the spirit/demon returns to the Fade where is will await its next summoning by the believers who need it.  

 

However, we know that there are two types of possession; willing and unwilling, at least where intelligent creatures are concerned.    In the Hakkon dragon's case it is not clear whether it would be considered an unwilling possession or a willing one or how exactly the spirit is encouraged into the dragon.

 

As for the qunari, they definitely do have possession because that is why they keep such careful watch on their mages and pity them because if they become possessed that is the ultimate loss of self.     I don't think Iron Bull would have had such a thing about demons if he hadn't witnessed fellow qunari become possessed at some point.  Likely it is something that occurs more frequently on Seheron because of the mental strain it seems to put on the qunari there.   However, the leadership would want to play this down and prefer to suggest that they have simply gone Tal'Vashoth rather than they have been possessed.    

Wait... There is something I do not understand. Ameridan said that the dragon was a vessel that carried a spirit of an Avvar God (btw, meaning that Hakkon existed both physically and ... and ... and... in a spirit form?). Cassandra also says " We need to stop the dragon. It still carries the spirit of Hakkon." DA wikia says that the dragon was forced and bound to serve, not possessed. Possession is when a spirit/demon from the Fade wants to cross over the Veil to the mortal world... 

 

Ok... This is getting messy.......... 

Do you have any dialogues or codex entries stating that Hakkon "possessed" a dragon? Not sure if I am just being petty or if carrying a spirit and possession are two different things.

[greenbrownblue]

Well, we are talking about alchemy here. 

Well... As I wrote in the answer... It kinda makes sense that wyvern glands are needed to craft a dragon slaying rune :v ...

[greenbrownblue]

The Avaar gods are simply spirits.   The more powerful spirits are the ones they encourage to occupy a mortal vessel, like the dragon.   Now whether or not you consider the spirit is a demon is I suppose a matter for belief, but essentially the dragon is possessed by a spirit/demon.   When you kill it, the spirit/demon returns to the Fade where is will await its next summoning by the believers who need it.  

 

However, we know that there are two types of possession; willing and unwilling, at least where intelligent creatures are concerned.    In the Hakkon dragon's case it is not clear whether it would be considered an unwilling possession or a willing one or how exactly the spirit is encouraged into the dragon.

 

As for the qunari, they definitely do have possession because that is why they keep such careful watch on their mages and pity them because if they become possessed that is the ultimate loss of self.     I don't think Iron Bull would have had such a thing about demons if he hadn't witnessed fellow qunari become possessed at some point.  Likely it is something that occurs more frequently on Seheron because of the mental strain it seems to put on the qunari there.   However, the leadership would want to play this down and prefer to suggest that they have simply gone Tal'Vashoth rather than they have been possessed.    

Btw, if the two things are different then I am VEEEEEERY curious whether Solas is a vessel for a spirit, or is possessed by a spirit, or if is a spirit in physical form. 

[The Baconer]

Wait... There is something I do not understand. Ameridan said that the dragon was a vessel that carried a spirit of an Avvar God (btw, meaning that Hakkon existed both physically and ... and ... and... in a spirit form?). Cassandra also says " We need to stop the dragon. It still carries the spirit of Hakkon." DA wikia says that the dragon was forced and bound to serve, not possessed. Possession is when a spirit/demon from the Fade wants to cross over the Veil to the mortal world... 

 

Ok... This is getting messy.......... 

Do you have any dialogues or codex entries stating that Hakkon "possessed" a dragon? Not sure if I am just being petty or if carrying a spirit and possession are two different things.

 

It is possession. When a mage is possessed by a spirit, their physical body becomes the vessel that the spirit uses to interact with the material world. It is the same with the dragon. 

[Riot Inducer]

I rather like this theory but I have to point out that nowhere outside of the gameplay feature of Inqusition's crafting is Enchantment/Runecrafting stated to use anything other than lyrium. Dagna states enchantment is the process of working lyrium into rational patterns that "beat like something alive". Or in other words the lyrium is formed into a shape that produces a stable spell effect. 

 

Not saying the lore couldn't have been updated to include the need for specific reagents however that has not been reflected in any dialogue or codex so far. 

[greenbrownblue]

It is possession. When a mage is possessed by a spirit, their physical body becomes the vessel that the spirit uses to interact with the material world. It is the same with the dragon. 

How so? Hakkon did not need to cross over the Veil, did he? I mean, he is called a son of Korth. Can a spirit be someone's son?Possession is when a spirit attaches itself to sth in the mortal world in order to cross over the Veil. I tried to CTR+F the world "possess" in the articles about Hakkon and the word is not used to describe the relationship between the dragon vessel and the Hakkon.

 

I do not remember all JoH dialogues, but is there any dialogue/codex/letter talking about "possession" of the dragon by a spirit?

[greenbrownblue]

I rather like this theory but I have to point out that nowhere outside of the gameplay feature of Inqusition's crafting is Enchantment/Runecrafting stated to use anything other than lyrium. Dagna states enchantment is the process of working lyrium into rational patterns that "beat like something alive". Or in other words the lyrium is formed into a shape that produces a stable spell effect. 

 

Not saying the lore couldn't have been updated to include the need for specific reagents however that has not been reflected in any dialogue or codex so far. 

I do not understand... Are you saying that only lyrium is needed to craft a rune :/ ?

[myahele]

Qunari skin (maybe even genetics) is interesting. Combining certain ingredients will result in their skin taking certain properties. I would not be surprised if over-consumption of lyrium does something to them; especially mages.

 

The super-powered Qunari mage ends up attracting demons and even makes the environment black/white

[greenbrownblue]

The super-powered Qunari mage ends up attracting demons and even makes the environment black/white

Where is that thought from?

[NaclynE]

Hey there everybody,

 

so I have been recently wondering about how to answer the question Inquisitor asked Solas: "Why this world has to die for the elves to return".

I still do not have a full answer, tho I am trying to base it on my spirit theories (here is 1st & and here is the 2nd) .

 

While crafting a superb demon-slaying rune I realized I needed pure dragon blood. That is weird... So demons are weak against pure dragon blood?

 

Now... Let's think who was forced to drink pure dragon blood .... Oh yes , THE QUNARI! I do not recall any qunari  who has been possessed by a demon and mages are very rare in Qunari society. What is even more interesting is that if a qunari happens to be a mage, it is an EXTREMELY powerful one (saarebas boss fight in the Trespasser DLC was one of the hardest). Why weak qunari mages do not exist?

 

Only people who have a connection to the Fade are capable of magic (fade magic of cuz. blood magic draws power from the blood and taint magic draws from the taint). If dragon blood is like an "antitode" against demons (or spirits - according to Solas they are one and same) who are natural inhabitants and "antidote" against a connection to the Fade, then maybe only truly powerful qunari can overcome this mix of their blood and dragon blood that they have in veins (kinda like our antibodies). It could explain why weak qunari mages do not exist.

 

Anyway, would qunari do fine in a world without the Veil? In my opinion not really, though I see certain advantages. The biggest minus is obviously not being able to use magic, which in a Fade-world is crippling. There are some advantages I see too. Anybody who is not taught how to resist possession and how to live in  a world with spirits is left vulnarable (I guess this is why elves left to find Solas by the end of the Trespasser DLC). Qunari will be more resistant to the natural inhabitants of the Fade.

 

However, in the "dawn of the Seeker", Avexis can command dragons. Could some dragons command the Qunari?  Iron Bull mentions that he felt the dragon speaking to him. Kieran says he noticed Qunari Inquisitor's blood and that "it does not belong to your [Qunari] people" and that he "feels bad for what happened to his [Qunari] people". It almost sounds as if qunari were crippled, not gifted.

 

Ugh, wish David Gaider could drop more hints.

Anyway, as much as I love elven lore, I am not an expert when it comes to the Qunari, so all comments are welcome. Perhaps there is more to it than I am seeing.

 

I...ehhhh...all I can say is if demons are weak against dragon blood then how was the archdemon taken over in both DAO and DAI? it seems like all naturalistic beings are affected by the blight somehow. 

 

As far as qunari lore wise qunari I do believe are part dragon's themselves in some account in a way. I can't remember how much is in their DNA code but it seems to be true. But them being superior to demons I am not 100% sure about that. it seems like the qunari preferabbly not deal with them at all. I think not only is Iron Bull mehhhh with demons but Sten is as well. If I remember right Sten was forced to trip balls which caused him to get confused and accidently killed those civillians. It's just to save face he plays it off as "I just killed them" without explaining why.

[greenbrownblue]

I...ehhhh...all I can say is if demons are weak against dragon blood then how was the archdemon taken over in both DAO and DAI? it seems like all naturalistic beings are affected by the blight somehow. 

Hum, what do you mean...? Demons are not blighted creatures, only spirits denied their original purpose. Archdemon is not a demon-possessed creature, but a taint-touched creature. 

[myahele]

Where is that thought from?

In the final fight with the out of control Saarebas, more and more demon popped up as the fight continued.

 

My best guess is that thedemons were attracted to the magical energy that he was pouring out and sought to posses 

[greenbrownblue]

In the final fight with the out of control Saarebas, more and more demon popped up as the fight continued.

 

My best guess is that thedemons were attracted to the magical energy that he was pouring out and sought to posses 

Oh ok... I see what you mean now. Good catch, but does not it actually prove my point? That Saarebas summon a huge number of demons, but was not possessed. So he either had some super high focus or that dragon blood works like a shield/antidote.

Also, Yavana said that the dragons had once ruled the skies (before the Veil). I can hardly imagine such powerful creatures being demon possessed.

[Gervaise]

Since Mythal is shown in both human and dragon form, plus there is also a dragon guardian of her ancient shrine, I think it is a pretty good bet that the dragons that ruled the skies before the Veil were connected in some way to the evanuris.   There is also the codex where the story is recounted of someone who was considered to have committed treason in taking and flying in the form of the gods.    So I think that all the evanuris could shape change into dragons at will and were able to command ordinary dragons as a result.

 

The reason I described Hakkon as being possessed  is that it is very clear the Avaar regard spirits as their gods.   Each tribe has its own spirits associated with it.    The spirits can aid them from the Fade or they can be encouraged to enter a mortal form so they can assist more directly.    If the mortal form is killed, the spirit simply returns to the Fade to reform itself.      To some extent this is what happened to Mythal.     However, when she found a mortal host, she chose a human because of the greater potential in such a vessel.    A dragon is very powerful and has a degree of intelligence in its natural form but not as great as with a human.  The limits of intelligence of the god/dragon are probably determined by the power of the spirit that occupies it but there are certain things it cannot do.  For example, a human or elf host has the ability to transform into a dragon but not it would seem the reverse.

 

As for archdemons, I think the clue is in the name.   The dragon is the vessel of a very powerful spirit/demon, which gives it a high degree of reasoning intelligence.   However, it is still limited by the natural mind of the dragon and when this becomes corrupted by the Blight, the creature goes insane.    According to the  Grey Wardens, when one of them kills the creature, the passage through the Grey Warden destroys both the soul of the archdemon and the soul of the Grey Warden, which presumably means neither could be reborn, or at least the old god soul is so damaged it loses any sense of its former identity.    Whereas directing the soul through Kieran means that it retains a level of sentience such as Mythal enjoyed as a wisp and this can subsequently be built upon to restore the former power of the "god".

 

It seems to me there is too much of a coincidence that the god Hakkon is a dragon and the old gods were thought to be dragons, for them not to be essentially much the same in origin.   I think all the elves were also originally spirits of the Fade but they were able to interact with the material world without any barrier and, like Cole, they gradually become more and more material.    When the Veil was raised it cut them off from the source of much of their spiritual power but a vestige remained of their origins in the magic in their blood, which humans (apart from possibly mages) do not possess.

[myahele]

I personally believe that Dragons rule prior to the rise of the Elves and that the great war that the Evanuris were known for was them rising up to defeat them.

 

Just like how Tevinter emulated the Elves as status symbol; Orlais emulating Tevinter; the elves could very well emulated Dragons. Especially since "dragons are the blood of the world" Elvhen blood is connected to the Fade, but in either case, their extinction doesn't won't affect the world. Especially since Solas would love to kill the Evanuris (pinnacle of Elvhen)

 

Maybe the Old Gods are the last remnants of these dragons? We know that there's a difference between Ancient Dragons vs modern Dragons. Then there's the lesser offshoot of dragons: Wyverns, etc.

 

Like how the Veil made Elves the way they are now, perhaps something similar was done to Dragons to make them the way we know now?