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[Fade9wayz]

I have seen the Ark Theory and this topic also states if we did it than maybe other cycles did it to. I do like the Ark Theory but would rather Bioware canonize an ending then precede in going to Andromeda because of their stated reason for going to Andromeda lol. I don't care if they step on my ending choice because they step all over them with each entry to the series since they wanted to open it to newcomers with each game. So I call total and complete BS that they care about Player choices so why should they care now with the ME3 endings lol. Only choice I saw that went through to ME3 from ME1 was my LI choice. 

And maybe some other cycles managed to do it. There is indeed no evidence to the contrary. Not that there is any supporting that theory either, since our cycle is apparently the first one that benefitted from a jammed Citadel beacon. We'll only know when MEA is distributed, and I don't see the point of speculating on this. Maybe yes, maybe not. It still doesn't automatically infer Reapers went to other galaxies.

 

Now, you're free to believe or not what BW stated. Beliefs are usually not very rational and heavilly biased by whatever emotion, subjective perspective and personal history created them, not to mention the more or less conscious personal gains one hopes to get by applying to any system of belief. You admitting your personal preferences only shows us your theories only stand on beliefs and wishes rather than evidences. As I said, you're free to believe whatever you want, and even promote your preferences, but do not push them on us as facts.

 

I, for one, have absolutely no problem imagining reasons for Shepard (or the galaxy medias at large) not knowing of any contingency plans, or even being led to believe there can't be any contingency plan. Riots would undoubtly ensue, and Reapers would be clued in on it and would try and destroy the ARK. To avoid the ARK being discovered, they'd just need to conceal the ressources allocated to it in the Crucible's ones. Account fraud is probably as old as sapience.

I can even imagine Shepard/Liara suspecting/knowing and never having any reason to mention it because it's in their best interest to keep it top secret (they definitely wouldn't get it in some e-mail and Liara woudn't leave it open on her terminals), and it's out of their hands anyway.

 

Honestly, avoiding retcon isn't that hard. Making it plausible depends on the quality of writing, and trusting BW to pull it off is an entirely different problem which I won't get into since I don't care for such arguments.

[Iakus]

And you can't read their minds.

Moreover, the content of their minds is irrelevant. All that matters is what makes it into the game.

But I can read their intent.  We are supposed to take what the Leviathan says as Veritas, because they are trying to shore up their poor story decisions

 

What made it into the game was stupidly overpowered space Cthulhu with a mandate so broadly written they were able to mulch their own creators in the pursuit of "preserving life"

 

If the reapers can reach Andromeda, so can the Synthesis wave. Then they gain understanding and are no longer the enemy. Peace out.

 

If there are mass relays joining the galaxies, I'd say that's possible.  Otherwise, well, it depends on the range of the blast waves in the MW.  

[CronoDragoon]

There's no way the Crucible wave is reaching Andromeda. Remember that they are doing this move so that they don't have to deal with the effects of the Crucible. Perhaps Reapers have been to Andromeda and were defeated somehow, but it won't be by the Milky Way wave. Maybe that's where the Remnants come in or whatever they are called.

Realistically, asserting Reapers have been to Andromeda causes more problems than it solves. I have an easier time believing the Leviathans programmed the Catalyst to stay in the Milky Way than I do believing the Catalyst's mind control over the Reapers can span galaxies.

[Iakus]

There's no way the Crucible wave is reaching Andromeda. Remember that they are doing this move so that they don't have to deal with the effects of the Crucible. Perhaps Reapers have been to Andromeda and were defeated somehow, but it won't be by the Milky Way wave. Maybe that's where the Remnants come in or whatever they are called.
 

I am inclined to agree.  However, the fact that the Crucible wave is capable of reaching systems without mass relays does leave the possibility open, however remote.

 

 

Realistically, asserting Reapers have been to Andromeda causes more problems than it solves. I have an easier time believing the Leviathans programmed the Catalyst to stay in the Milky Way than I do believing the Catalyst's mind control over the Reapers can span galaxies.

 

If the Reapers have not been to Andromeda, then there has to be a reason for it.  For all the jokes about Skynet, the Reapers are really more along the lines of the AI designed to make paperclips, and simply doesn't know when to stop.  

 

And assuming the Catalyst has miniaturized QEC devices built into the Citadel, then its effective range for controlling reapers is unlimited.

[CronoDragoon]

I am inclined to agree.  However, the fact that the Crucible wave is capable of reaching systems without mass relays does leave the possibility open, however remote.
 
 
If the Reapers have not been to Andromeda, then there has to be a reason for it.  For all the jokes about Skynet, the Reapers are really more along the lines of the AI designed to make paperclips, and simply doesn't know when to stop.  
 
And assuming the Catalyst has miniaturized QEC devices built into the Citadel, then its effective range for controlling reapers is unlimited.

With all due respect Iakus, this is exactly what I mean when I say you are perfectly willing to make assumptions that cement this as a problem, but are unwilling to make any whatsoever that alleviate it.

Since at this point I am just advocating a wait and see approach over and over (this entire discussion is meaningless if it turns out Reapers have been to Andromeda in MEA or tried and were prevented somehow) I'll take my leave.

[Iakus]

With all due respect Iakus, this is exactly what I mean when I say you are perfectly willing to make assumptions that cement this as a problem, but are unwilling to make any whatsoever that alleviate it.

Since at this point I am just advocating a wait and see approach over and over (this entire discussion is meaningless if it turns out Reapers have been to Andromeda in MEA or tried and were prevented somehow) I'll take my leave.

Well, I did say I was inclined to agree with you on that point, even if I allowed for the possibility of being wrong.

 

But in the end, you can afford to take a more "wait and see" approach because you were happy (or at least content) with how ME3 turned out.  While I found it a crushing disappointment.  And fully expect to see yet more handwaving away of implications they themselves opened up.  Everything I cited here about the possibility of Reapers going to Andromeda is a logical extension of what we know about the Reapers.  

 

I Call me pessimistic if you like, but I see myself as being a realist here.

[Sylvius the Mad]

But I can read their intent. We are supposed to take what the Leviathan says as Veritas, because they are trying to shore up their poor story decisions

But we don't have to do that. If it's that intent that creates these perceived Inconsistencies, and we can ignore that intent without contradicting the game's actual content, we'd be fools not to ignore it.

[Iakus]

But we don't have to do that. If it's that intent that creates these perceived Inconsistencies, and we can ignore that intent without contradicting the game's actual content, we'd be fools not to ignore it.

And that's how IT was born...

[ArabianIGoggles]

Except he's not.

 

The Leviathan of Dis is a billion years old, and was not the oldest Reaper.

 

That mens the Leviathans were harvested over a billion years ago.

It is speculated that the Leviathan of Dis is near a billion years old.  Stating that they are over billions of years old as fact is nonsense.  

[DarthSliver]

You may want a canon ending but that isn't what you claimed you claimed...

 

"Sorry but moving to Andromeda means that the cycles have ended and if the cycles have ended than that means we won the war with the Reapers. We can't get to Andromeda before the Trilogy or during the Trilogy it has to be after."

 

That is a direct quote. I clearly showed that premiss is wrong.

 

You made the above quote in response to me saying...

 

"Not only that but much of the refusal to accept that the reapers are likely to have been limited to the milky way, is because certain people on this thread have an agenda of trying to force Bioware to canonize one of the endings, or more specifically the ending THEY want canonized. Or it is the agenda to try and stop the game from being made in Andromeda so they try and "explain" why moving here doesn't make a difference so Bioware should just make the game in the Milky way. Aka certain posters here have an agenda and they don't care about facts and evidence they just want what they want period and everyone else can go frak themselves."

 

So how do you respond to me showing that you can leave during the trilogy and not after? By stating you are aware of the theory but dismiss it because you WANT a canon ending. Which just proves my point doesn't it?

 

Well what I meant is that the Ark Theory is the best theory they can use for us getting to Andromeda but we all know Bioware isn't into using fan theories unless we are merely predicting it. IT was the biggest theory for fixing the endings when we first saw ME3 endings, but that artist integrety to the crap endings we got now.  It is likely that we are moving to Andromeda via similiar means to the Ark Theory and by similiar I mean before the endings happen. If the Andromeda move happens after ME3 than one of the endings would've occurred. But with the tech level we have and know from the series, we really just don't have means to get to another galaxy until the Reaper threat is dealt with and the races can study the dead Reapers.

 

A canon ending has to be made if we leave after ME3 has a occurred and we both know Bioware doesn't wanna make a canon ending for ME3. I only want a canon ending to be made so the Andromeda move doesn't feel like a cop out to avoid the endings like a plague. Their reason for moving to Andromeda is because Milky Way is too familiar and not enough unexplored areas. I strongly feel that Bioware needs to face the music with endings for Mass Effect series to continue on and not leave the endings in its current mess that it will probably stay in. I explained in previous threads why the endings were a mess and its not because we don't get a happy ending. Its because firstly we shouldn't have gotten choices to end the series and secondly our choices throughout the series should've effected how we beat the Reapers. 

[Joseph Warrick]

In Leviathan, we learn the space kid and by extension the reapers are dumb and misinterpreted the leviathans' intentions. The leviathans wanted taxes from the lesser races under their empire and wrote space kid to make sure those races didn't self-destruct by creating rebellious robots. And space kid did what we all know.

 

So all reaper activity is concerned with the original leviathan empire, i.e., the milky way. Andromeda was not part of it. Reapers are physically able to go to Andromeda, but space kid isn't written to care about that galaxy.

[Gothfather]

In Leviathan, we learn the space kid and by extension the reapers are dumb and misinterpreted the leviathans' intentions. The leviathans wanted taxes from the lesser races under their empire and wrote space kid to make sure those races didn't self-destruct by creating rebellious robots. And space kid did what we all know.

 

So all reaper activity is concerned with the original leviathan empire, i.e., the milky way. Andromeda was not part of it. Reapers are physically able to go to Andromeda, but space kid isn't written to care about that galaxy.

 

The "space kid" actually creates a very reasoned and intelligent solution to the problem.

 

Here are the key points to the logic.

 

Dead races don't give tribute.

 

Organics WILL create machines to improve their lives.

 

Those Machines will have limits so the organics will continue to try and improve their machines to further make their lives easier.

 

To solve this issue organics will create machine that can evolve.

 

With this evolution the machines will surpass their creators and rebel.

 

These wars will result in species destroying themselves.

 

Tribute does not flow from a dead race.

 

So the catalyst harvest the 'Master' race creating harbinger the 'leader' of the reapers.

 

Then it harvest every advance race taking all their resources, knowledge, genetics material, technology and history and preserves them into a new set of reapers to serve their leader harbinger. Each race is preserved in the form of a new servitor reaper and thus nothing is lost to the constant wars between organics and synthetics.

 

The cycles are the ultimate manifestation of the tribute system. It isn't a "dumb" solution at all.

 

Reapers are not machines they are cybernetic organisms, both synthetic and organic.

 

The catalyst is aware that its solution is imperfect because organics have shown that they can communicate across cycles and it's efforts to destroy the knowledge of the crucible have failed over multiple cycles. Now organics have built it and reached the citadel proving that the status quo of the cycles is unsustainable now. So a new solution must be found.

 

Then we get those stupid choices that really come down to pick your favourite colour because nothing you did in the series before mattered up until that very moment. The entire ending of the series is hinged upon that one choice. That is why those endings were so bad.

[Joseph Warrick]

The dumbness level of the solution is beside the point. Sorry for bringing it up. The point is the reapers are concerned with the original leviathan empire because it's what leviathans specified when they wrote space kid. So the reapers don't care about Andromeda.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Exactly. I don't really know why people want to continue opening the can of  worms that BioWare wants to close. The Milky Way, the reapers, and that ending are the can of worms. The only way to recan it is to get a bigger can. That can is Andromeda. Say goodbye to the Milky Way. Like Mac Walters said in his Final Hours interview, "It's a wasteland."

 

So let's for the sake of a better story and better gaming experience just live with the idea that there are no reapers in Andromeda, m'kay?

 

And yes, there is a possibility that other races have escaped to Andromeda. Possible "remnants." Perhaps the Inusannon are the remnants and were defeated by the people of Andromeda. Their remnants are in cryostasis. Leave it to humanity to awaken an ancient and deadly terror. 

[Ahglock]

The reapers committed 680 harvesting cycles since being created, assimilating all known technological advances to bolster their already immensely impressive technology. Each cycle begins every 50k so they've been around for a long time and as said have assimilated vast amounts of technology with which to use obviously to further increase their effectiveness. Meaning they would have plenty of time to acquire the means to do so the likely hood they explored the andromeda galaxy is very high. Also the andromeda galaxy is 9.006 billion years old, the milk way is only 13.21 billion years so they're not far behind the milky way.

Is that an actual #? 680 cycles is only 34millionish years. Billions of years behind is pretty big in comparison. This kind of implies since they are supposedly a billion+ years old that they worked as intended for a long time or at least the preserve life mandate is new.


Side note on the reapers mandate. The leviathans probably never knew it. They create thralls to do the work. They most likely told a slave race good at tech to program it with certain mandates. But just like supervisors at most jobs they aren't concerned with the specifics or the how it gets done just the overall picture. Leviathans now are even further removed from the truth and have no reason to explain the full details of what they did and all the features they asked for in their reaper app in a 3 minute conversation with you. Even if inclined to tell the truth, people lie all the time especially lies of omission.

And that's assuming the slave race didn't intentionally sabotage the project as an act of rebellion.

Typing on phone fun.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

So who really built "the Intelligence" and who really programmed it?

 

You wouldn't know them and there isn't time to explain.

[themikefest]

So let's for the sake of a better story and better gaming experience just live with the idea that there are no reapers in Andromeda, m'kay?

I will headcannon my main character having a poster of Harbinger in the cabin. That way the reapers, or rather Harbinger, can be in Andromeda.

[themikefest]

So who really built "the Intelligence" and who really programmed it?

Leviathan. They suffered from politician syndrome. The big head. Believing everything they say and do is right no matter what. Then one day they woke up inside of a giant blender.
 

You wouldn't know them and there isn't time to explain.

I sure there would've been time had 6-12 more months were given for the game

[Killroy]

I sure there would've been time had 6-12 more months were given for the game

 

Purely wishful thinking. They went into development of ME3 without a clue of how to end the trilogy. They had years to work out the story but waited until the last second to even start thinking about it.

[Commandr_Shepard]

I want a complete break from the original ME Trilogy, because part 3 ruined it all. So I better be able to pretend that is the case with ME:A.

[ZipZap2000]

Purely wishful thinking. They went into development of ME3 without a clue of how to end the trilogy. They had years to work out the story but waited until the last second to even start thinking about it.

Then wrote an all encompassing ending that effectively ended their most successful franchise, without thinking about what they were gonna do for an income afterwards.

[DarthSliver]

ok so I was thinking and I just figured out a good reason for why Andromeda would be Reaped. Its possible that the Reapers know Andromeda will eventually collide with the Milky Way so they tried to enter it into a cycle phrase or have succeded already. But since we won the war there are no longer Reaper activity and the races there were able to stop them or stumbled upon dead Reapers because we obviously won against them. Its more likely they failed to bring Andromeda out of "Chaos" what they believe to be chaos. The two galaxies being predicted to collide is reason enough for them to bring order to Andromeda, they don't really have any reason to bring order to other galaxies unless a predicted event like that is to occur. Of course that reason could be used for why we are going to Andromeda but its more likely the Ark Theory will be true or a form of it so the endings can be avoided. Endings being avoided is why the Reapers would've failed to take control of Andromeda.

[Gothfather]

The dumbness level of the solution is beside the point. Sorry for bringing it up. The point is the reapers are concerned with the original leviathan empire because it's what leviathans specified when they wrote space kid. So the reapers don't care about Andromeda.

 

I agree which is what I have bloody wrote in this entire thread but that wasn't your opening point you said and I quote

 

"In Leviathan, we learn the space kid and by extension the reapers are dumb and misinterpreted the leviathans' intentions."

 

There is nothing dumb about the solution. It was NOT what the Leviathans had intended but there was nothing stupid or dumb about it.

[Killroy]

ok so I was thinking and I just figured out a good reason for why Andromeda would be Reaped. Its possible that the Reapers know Andromeda will eventually collide with the Milky Way so they tried to enter it into a cycle phrase or have succeded already. But since we won the war there are no longer Reaper activity and the races there were able to stop them or stumbled upon dead Reapers because we obviously won against them. Its more likely they failed to bring Andromeda out of "Chaos" what they believe to be chaos. The two galaxies being predicted to collide is reason enough for them to bring order to Andromeda, they don't really have any reason to bring order to other galaxies unless a predicted event like that is to occur. Of course that reason could be used for why we are going to Andromeda but its more likely the Ark Theory will be true or a form of it so the endings can be avoided. Endings being avoided is why the Reapers would've failed to take control of Andromeda.

 

...when galaxies collide it's catastrophic. Do you think two galaxies just smoothly combine into one large galaxy and everyone has a party? Everything would die, including the Reapers.

[Gothfather]

ok so I was thinking and I just figured out a good reason for why Andromeda would be Reaped. Its possible that the Reapers know Andromeda will eventually collide with the Milky Way so they tried to enter it into a cycle phrase or have succeded already. But since we won the war there are no longer Reaper activity and the races there were able to stop them or stumbled upon dead Reapers because we obviously won against them. Its more likely they failed to bring Andromeda out of "Chaos" what they believe to be chaos. The two galaxies being predicted to collide is reason enough for them to bring order to Andromeda, they don't really have any reason to bring order to other galaxies unless a predicted event like that is to occur. Of course that reason could be used for why we are going to Andromeda but its more likely the Ark Theory will be true or a form of it so the endings can be avoided. Endings being avoided is why the Reapers would've failed to take control of Andromeda.

 

That is not a good reason.

 

The mass relays are designed to steer technology into a specific direction aka one that uses reaper tech so that the reapers can more effectively harvest races in each cycle. This is why we find Prothean tech in our solar system. It was deliberately left there instead of harvested to leave the technological seeds to the mass effect of eezo. The reason for this in it's entirety is for efficiency. It allows the reaper to better predict where population centres will form, where a race will likely end up technologically because they have billions of years worth of history stored in the reapers. All that knowledge means it is easy to predict how races will interact and develop using mass effect technology. And they create the perfect political and economic hub in the form of citadel what just happens to be a trap. Again this is all done to make the harvests more efficient.

 

I could go on but I think it is fairly well established that the reapers goal is an efficient harvest. It is NOT efficient to send ship off to Andromeda to harvest the galaxy now. Andromeda is getting closer with each passing cycle but it is billions of years away from colliding with the MW, there is zero reason to start harvesting that galaxy when it is so far and so long away. You method is quicker but quicker isn't the same as efficient at all. Countless studies have shown that speeding to work is inefficient you are more stress, burn a lot more fuel and arrive almost at the same time as someone who drives at a leisurely pace doing the speed limit. Yes speeding will get you to your objective slightly faster but you gain nothing for it and lose so much more interms of cost in fuel, wear and tear on your vehicle and stress. There is nothing efficient about it.

 

Going to Andromeda now isn't efficient, there is no advantage to the reapers for harvesting them early because their programming is ONLY concerned with the MW which i have so clearly shown. I have shown the actual actions of the catalyst confining itself to ONLY the milky way. I have shown that the Leviathans themself only view the MW as important based on their scale of thought being limited to the our GALAXY, singular.

 

Capability doesn't equate to need. Most innovation and change happens because of NEED things rarely advance or change if there is no need. This is why we have the saying "Necessity is the mother of invention." The Reapers don't need to harvest any other galaxy so they don't. Yes they can do it but the ydon't need to so they don't. It really is that simple.