457 réponses à ce sujet

[Gothfather]

They show some individuality. Sovereign, Harbinger, and the Rannoch Reaper all seem a little different to each other (and IIRC the Rannoch Reaper mentioned Harbinger speaking of Shepard, which doesn't sound quite hive-minded). Inside each individual Reaper you have a hive mind (see Legion's explanation).

 

The reapers seem to have individuality that is clear but they don't seem to be able to act independently they all server their creator, the catalysis, which claims to be the embodiment of collective intelligence of all reapers. I view the reapers as all unique but with no 'free will.' They appear to be designed to have none, while EDI appears to be designed to simulate human intelligence and thus has 'free will.' Reapers have a collective will and intelligence but one that is made up of individuals so the "mind" of any single reaper is an 'individual' it's 'will' represents the 'will' of the catalysis. It also seem that its own 'will' if it even has one which is suspect it doesn't is so subverted it has no concept of 'free will.' Which also explains Sovereign's submissiveness of Shepard's resistance. It is irrelevant because Reapers do what they are commanded/programmed to do period, so individual defiance is meaningless to their perspective. 

 

Reapers are a collective intelligence. Hive minds are a collective intelligence. Not all collective intelligences are hive minds. It does appear that while Reapers are a collective intelligence they are not a singular hive mind but rather have a singular 'will.'

[Spectr61]

There isn't a single piece of evidence that supports your position it is all supposition. There isn't anything that even suggest the reapers are extra galactic,

Snip.

All the extra galactic camp can do is say well there isn't any evidence that disproves it. PFFFT You must provide evidence to SUPPORT your actual claim.

Snip.
 
NOTHING in the endings or the Leviathan conversation support the reapers being extra galactic.
Snip.
 
Again i ask as I have ask countless times provide me with just ONE piece of evidence that the reapers are out an about in other galaxies.

Snip.
:

Goth, the "evidence" you linked;

https://m.youtube.co...eature=youtu.be

Key takeaway; quote at 4:56; "physical data drawn from organic life in the cosmos".

Cosmos = universe. Universe = all galaxies.

Is this extra galactic enough?

[Sifr]

So we are not just talking one single source and saying see! we have two confirmed sources that confirm each other. So while one might suspect either source individually they confirm each others' story from their own perspectives,

 

Both of whom are unreliable sources however.

 

The Leviathan are too arrogant to admit to ever screwing up. The Catalyst is a broken program that does not understand that it's screwing up.

 

Thus we cannot take either their words at face value, because neither believes they are wrong.

[straykat]

Aww facts are so mean. boo hoo for you. It is typical of the childish 'opinion age' that I don't like you so I'm not going to listen to your facts. lol boo hoo i didn't coddle you. Being wilfully ignorant doesn't hurt anyone else but yourself.

 

The amazing thing is that had you actually clicked on the links to the post you quoted of mine all your questions would have been answered so why so ornery? because you were too fraking lazy for actually read the post and obtain the knowledge before you tried to join the conversation. I don't reward foolishness.

 

It's not that big of a deal.

 

I just to come here to chill and bs a bit. I expect occasional arguments, but I'm not here for a holy war. I don't even know all of your facts because I barely glanced at your ALL CAPS wall 'o text. And are you completely devoid of perspective or something? Why are you so proud of it? If I'm not mistaken, you're older than me even. Why would something like this make you this pissed off? Don't answer that.

 

Go ahead and argue with Iakus if you want though. He's been raging for 5 years. You're two peas in a pod.

[Arcian]

I've given up reading those posts, they don't make sense and I cant tell if its trolling or not anymore. Broken logic everywhere.

The only thing that's broken here is this bottle of ryncol you've been sipping from.

[ZipZap2000]

The only thing that's broken here is this bottle of ryncol you've been sipping from.

I drink from a martini glass with a slice of lime actually.

*Sips Ryncol*

[AngryFrozenWater]

Both of whom are unreliable sources however.

 

The Leviathan are too arrogant to admit to ever screwing up. The Catalyst is a broken program that does not understand that it's screwing up.

 

Thus we cannot take either their words at face value, because neither believes they are wrong.

It all has to do with your perspective. And that's OK. One can make the case that neither can be trusted and that they screwed up. I used to do that. In that case there are more plotholes than ever. So, I tried it the other way around. What if what is told to Shepard in the game is true? The fun part of that is that there are less plotholes in the ending.

 

Does that mean that I like the ending? No. It should never have been there. I prefer the destroy option, but my game really ends after shooting Marauder Shields, because anything after that has nothing to do with what Shepard tried to accomplish before. All options are designed by the writers to either severely cripple Shepard or to kill him/her and/or lead to either an eugenic solution or more genocide. To me there is no replay value in that part.

[Hammerstorm]

It's not that big of a deal.

 

I just to come here to chill and bs a bit. I expect occasional arguments, but I'm not here for a holy war. I don't even know all of your facts because I barely glanced at your ALL CAPS wall 'o text. And are you completely devoid of perspective or something? Why are you so proud of it? If I'm not mistaken, you're older than me even. Why would something like this make you this pissed off? Don't answer that.

 

Go ahead and argue with Iakus if you want though. He's been raging for 5 years. You're two peas in a pod.

 

To be fair, Gothfather did give all the information that you requested in a previous comment in this thread. So I can see why he got a bit aggressive.

And while I can see why you may see it as being a bit over the top, he has been arguing this thing with people that refuse to use any concrete fact to dispute his fact (a couple of time all over the bsn). So I guess he has tired of repeating himself every time someone seems to ignore his previous comments.

 

But we are all friends here.

(Except Zip that didn't want to share his Ryncol )

[AngryFrozenWater]

Goth, the "evidence" you linked;

https://m.youtube.co...eature=youtu.be

Key takeaway; quote at 4:56; "physical data drawn from organic life in the cosmos".

Cosmos = universe. Universe = all galaxies.

Is this extra galactic enough?

No. It is not, because you are taking it out of context. Here is the context:

 

Leviathan: To find a solution, it required information - physical data drawn from organic life in the cosmos. It created an army of pawns that searched the galaxy, gathering this data.

 

The leviathan is again very specific. It does not say that the data was taken from the universe. The data was taken from the galaxy instead. The MW is of course also part of the cosmos.

 

Galaxy also happens to be one of the synonyms for cosmos.

[Gothfather]

Both of whom are unreliable sources however.

 

The Leviathan are too arrogant to admit to ever screwing up. The Catalyst is a broken program that does not understand that it's screwing up.

 

Thus we cannot take either their words at face value, because neither believes they are wrong.

 

Very much so they are both unreliable sources. This is often how sources go, individually you can't trust what is said is true but when two sources confirm each other it no longer is considered unreliable. This is especially true when the sources are in conflict with each other in some way. This need not be armed conflict. Each has an agenda it may wish to push but their agendas are in conflict so when they both confirm what the other is saying you can view the actual confirmed material as trust worthy. This is how confirming sources works. It pretty standard practise.

 

The interesting thing is you say you can't take either of their words at face value which is true so you CONFIRM what they are saying and you get confirmation so I am not asking that you just take their words at face value. The leviathans hate the reapers they themselves state the reaper are created to do X. Then the reapers themselves state we were created to do X. This is now two confirmed sources both of which are PRIMARY sources. so you are no longer taking their words at face value you have confirmed said words. This is how confirmation works this is how you vette information.

[Gothfather]

Goth, the "evidence" you linked;

https://m.youtube.co...eature=youtu.be

Key takeaway; quote at 4:56; "physical data drawn from organic life in the cosmos".

Cosmos = universe. Universe = all galaxies.

Is this extra galactic enough?

 

 

No. It is not, because you are taking it out of context. Here is the context:

 

Leviathan: To find a solution, it required information - physical data drawn from organic life in the cosmos. It created an army of pawns that searched the galaxy, gathering this data.

 

The leviathan is again very specific. It does not say that the data was taken from the universe. The data was taken from the galaxy instead. The MW is of course also part of the cosmos.

 

Galaxy also happens to be one of the synonyms for cosmos.

 

What AngryFrozeWater said.

 

The only way the extra galactic camp can make things work is if they take a quote out of context. Either by not quoting the whole sentence or quoting something in isolation because quoting the sentence before and after changes the meaning completely. Which is why I bring up context up so often. Context can change the meaning of words dramatically, sarcasm can provide context so words mean the exact opposite. Context is vital in talking about these things.

 

We are told the catalysis drew data from organic life in the cosmos, the very next sentence shows us HOW the catalysis obtained this data which was sent out a bunch of pawns to search the GALAXY. So how can anyone conclude this is extra galactic evidence when we are specifically told it is galactic in scale?

[Spectr61]

No. It is not, because you are taking it out of context. Here is the context:
 
Leviathan: To find a solution, it required information - physical data drawn from organic life in the cosmos. It created an army of pawns that searched the galaxy, gathering this data.
 
The leviathan is again very specific. It does not say that the data was taken from the universe. The data was taken from the galaxy instead. The MW is of course also part of the cosmos.
 
Galaxy also happens to be one of the synonyms for cosmos.

Or, from the same source, under definitions, cosmos = universe.

http://www.dictionar...m/browse/cosmos

As for the context, my reading of those two sentences, one containing "cosmos", and one containing "galaxy", mean at least they either had the ability or actually did gather "physical data" from the cosmos, including our galaxy. Else why use the word cosmos?

[AngryFrozenWater]

Or, from the same source, under definitions, cosmos = universe.

http://www.dictionar...m/browse/cosmos

As for the context, my reading of those two sentences, one containing "cosmos", and one containing "galaxy", mean at least they either had the ability or actually did gather "physical data" from the cosmos, including our galaxy. Else why use the word cosmos?

Click the last word in my post (cosmos), plus read the sentence that contains it, and all will be revealed.

 

Did you actually read what I wrote?

[The Hierophant]

There's no point in debating this now. Just wait until MEA's out. 

[Spectr61]

Click the last word in my post (cosmos), plus read the sentence that contains it, and all will be revealed.
 
Did you actually read what I wrote?

Yes, that's why I provided a link to the definition of cosmos from your source.

Care for another, say Webster's?

http://www.merriam-w...ctionary/cosmos

Note the consistency of cosmos = universe.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Yes, that's why I provided a link to the definition of cosmos from your source.

Care for another, say Webster's?

http://www.merriam-w...ctionary/cosmos

Note the consistency of cosmos = universe.

OK. So you read it, but you did not comprehend it? Sorry. I can't help that.

[Spectr61]

OK. So you read it, but you did not comprehend it? Sorry. I can't help that.

To me, it's incomprehensible to not understand the simple definition of a word.

Try to twist it using context all you want, but the facts are "cosmos" was used in one sentence, and "galaxy" in the very next.

Those words are obviously very different, and just as obviously have different definitions.

I personally don't care either way, but the definitions stand.

Stipulate; the writer chooses his words for a reason.

And thank you for the generous unasked for offer, but no, your help is neither desired nor solicited.

[In Exile]

To me, it's incomprehensible to not understand the simple definition of a word.

Try to twist it using context all you want, but the facts are "cosmos" was used in one sentence, and "galaxy" in the very next.

Those words are obviously very different, and just as obviously have different definitions.

I personally don't care either way, but the definitions stand.

Stipulate; the writer chooses his words for a reason.

And thank you for the generous unasked for offer, but no, your help is neither desired nor solicited.

I don't know why you're trying to ascribe coherence to a mechanism that's obviously gibberish. It doesn't matter what the Leviathan programmed the Catalyst to do. What it does is total gibberish. That it's so stupid as to think the cosmos is the galaxy is no less ridiculous than the genocide solution its come up with

[Miserybot]

Woah!

 

This probably means something!

[Spectr61]

I don't know why you're trying to ascribe coherence to a mechanism that's obviously gibberish. It doesn't matter what the Leviathan programmed the Catalyst to do. What it does is total gibberish. That it's so stupid as to think the cosmos is the galaxy is no less ridiculous than the genocide solution its come up with

I'm not trying to ascribe, describe, or inscribe anything.

Merely listing definitions to different words.

All else is opinion.

[In Exile]

I'm not trying to ascribe, describe, or inscribe anything.

Merely listing definitions to different words.

All else is opinion.

 

You're saying that we should draw a particular inference from the use of "cosmos" and its literal definition - that's absolutely an argument for a particular position. It's a fair one, but frankly it bugs me when people try and shirk that part.

[Spectr61]

You're saying that we should draw a particular inference from the use of "cosmos" and its literal definition - that's absolutely an argument for a particular position. It's a fair one, but frankly it bugs me when people try and shirk that part.

"Shirk" which part?

All inferences and assumptions are the readers personal purview.

I advocate no position, neither by inference nor suggestion.

Literal definitions have little wiggle room however.

[Iakus]

In Exile hit on this before me, but if we're going to play a game where we extrapolate what the Catalyst intends:

 

"Preserve life at all costs", completely against the Leviathan's intentions, turned into "commit complete genocide of every space-faring species". 

 

At that stage, I wouldn't put much stock in "Preserve life at all costs" means "The Catalyst decided to reach out to intergalactic travel". 

I'd actually see that as strong evidence that they would go beyond the galaxy.  As it shows the Catalyst is not constrained by the bounds the Leviathans intended.

 

"preserve life at all costs" to the Reapers meant "mulch all advanced organic life and 'preserve' them as immortal Reapers" Clearly they too their orders to a "logical" extreme.

 

So why stop there?

[KaiserShep]

How long would it take to establish a relay network in multiple galaxies? It's not like they're running a Starbucks.

[UpUpAway95]

How long would it take to establish a relay network in multiple galaxies? It's not like they're running a Starbucks.

 

Question is - how long have they perhaps had?  The Milky Way, I believe, is estimated to be 12 billion years old.  I don't think the game tells us how long ago the Leviathan species first evolved, etc.... but, presumably it would be at least 50,000 years less than this this.

 

Another question might be, how many cycles would it take for them to become "legion" in numbers... if it requires the harvest of billions of individual humans to construct just one Reaper and each cycle of 50,000 years harvests only 1 to 6 Milky Way species to create those Reapers.  So, if their source of "manpower" is from just within the MW galaxy, their maximum numbers would be in order of just 40,000 (Hardly "legion" when compared with the sizes of the populations they are said to have harvested and the alleged centuries that it took to harvest some of those populations.)  Clearly, harvesting organic species from only within the Milky Way Galaxy would be an extremely slow way for Reapers to "reproduce" themselves and fortify their numbers.

 

There are "multiple" holes in the lore... and this is exactly what will afford Bioware the "wiggle room" to retcon and/or insert new lore to "cover off" the move to Andromeda in this series.  As the authors of the series, they can choose to write whatever they darned well please in this respect since they invented this lore to start with.  Regardless of whatever they do, some fans will not like it... that's just inevitable.  We can speculate all we want... but the "only truth" will be whatever Bioware actually writes into the Codex for ME:A.