457 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Hmmm... but now that the Catalyst is dead the reapers, if any left are no longer controlled by the catalyst. They are chaotic. Each a "nation", independent, and have weaknesses because we blew them out of the sky. And without the Catalyst, they are now dumb.

[MrFob]

Pretty sure the Leviathan had an interest in not being mulched either the Catalyst saw fit to do that though

Plus there is also the possibility of synthetic life being created in Andromeda, going Skynet, and then coming to the Mike Way, inn which case going to Andromeda and harvesting life there becomes a part of preserving life in the Milky Way

 

Yea, that would be my first thought as well.

 

I am still saying the most hilarious way for BW to start ME:A would be to set it after a canon synthesis ending, where we (including the protagonist) are all green and go to Andromeda to "upgrade" them to our final level of evolution, whether they want it or not. Muhahahaha!!!!

[themikefest]

Pretty sure the Leviathan had an interest in not being mulched either the Catalyst saw fit to do that though

Plus there is also the possibility of synthetic life being created in Andromeda, going Skynet, and then coming to the Mike Way, inn which case going to Andromeda and harvesting life there becomes a part of preserving life in the Milky Way

The Mike Way? Excellent. A galaxy named after me. Awesome. So the next game after Andromeda will take place in the Mike Way. Outstanding.  BioWare, make my galaxy awesome. hahahaha

[Eryri]

Plus there is also the possibility of synthetic life being created in Andromeda, going Skynet, and then coming to the Mike Way, inn which case going to Andromeda and harvesting life there becomes a part of preserving life in the Milky Way

This. The Catalyst is absolutely convinced that all forms of organic life will, inevitably, create synthetic life that will surpass and destroy its creators. No exceptions. This is, supposedly, why it refuses to stop its assault unless Shepard makes a decision and fires the Crucible to change the Galaxy, and why it vastly prefers the most drastic and permanent solution, Synthesis. Therefore, the Catalyst must logically believe that Andromeda, with no cycle to keep it in check, must be positively infested with synthetic life forms. Or, more likely, one very powerful synthetic singularity that has destroyed or consumed its competitors.

If the catalyst knows that it has the capability to send Reapers to Andromeda, then it would follow that whatever hyper-evolved singularity that must (by its own logic) exist there, can make that journey here too. It would also be reasonable for the Catalyst to worry about this singularity coming to the MWG to consume it for desert after depleting Andromeda. It therefore follows that, in order to protect the MW, it would be obligated to set up cycles in every galaxy that it can possibly reach. Anything less would be to neglect its duty to the MW...

Unless, of course, the idea of synthetics inevitably destroying Organics isn't true. Which would make the fact that it stubbornly forced Shepard to make some grotesquely drastic, but completely unnecessary, choice even more annoying.

[Giantdeathrobot]

It is only logical for an experiment to have as large a sample size as possible both to test different variables and observe results. The other galaxies would have had life and societies evolve differently and may have even come to a solution. If not, the Reapers could do a different test to see if that is more or less effective, like say maybe a harvest every 100,000 years rather than 50,000.

 

Why do you impose a logical and scientific thought process to an entity (the Catalyst) that was, in the end, a buggy AI interpreting its prime directive too literally? It might very well stick to the Mily Way because the Leviathans, among other oversights, didn't bother telling it to monitor and resolve organic/synthetic problems outside of the galaxy they were in at the time.

[Drone223]

That leaves a physical limit. Okay for whatever reason the Reapers were physically prevented from making the trip. What was that limit and how did we overcome it? What makes humans so special yet again? This too is important.

There's also the problem of how inconsistent/lore breaking its going to be with the technology level of the galaxy in the trilogy.

[Mistic]

Plus there is also the possibility of synthetic life being created in Andromeda, going Skynet, and then coming to the Mike Way, inn which case going to Andromeda and harvesting life there becomes a part of preserving life in the Milky Way

 

But, as Eryri has pointed out, that would create a never-ending cycle of fearing that every galaxy out there has developed or may develop Super AI that will threaten the MW in the future, so why not invade them all at the same time? Because if they can't invade every galaxy, then it's still better for them to build their forces and keep investigating the MW.

 

If the directive is to preserve organic life from synthetics in the MW, that life in other galaxies is being wiped out by synthetics shouldn't matter to the Reapers as long as those AI stay put in their little corners of the universe. And if they try to do something funny, well, the Reapers have the biggest and most advanced fleet in the MW, and spend most of the time in the borders of the galaxy. Any invasion should have to get through them first.

[Iakus]

But, as Eryri has pointed out, that would create a never-ending cycle of fearing that every galaxy out there has developed or may develop Super AI that will threaten the MW in the future, so why not invade them all at the same time? Because if they can't invade every galaxy, then it's still better for them to build their forces and keep investigating the MW.

 

Indeed.  The Reapers should want to invade every galaxy they can reach for just that reason

 

 

If the directive is to preserve organic life from synthetics in the MW, that life in other galaxies is being wiped out by synthetics shouldn't matter to the Reapers as long as those AI stay put in their little corners of the universe. And if they try to do something funny, well, the Reapers have the biggest and most advanced fleet in the MW, and spend most of the time in the borders of the galaxy. Any invasion should have to get through them first.

Except no such limitation exists.  Both the Catalyst and the Leviathan say "preserve life" not "preserve life in this galaxy"

[AresKeith]

There's also the problem of how inconsistent/lore breaking its going to be with the technology level of the galaxy in the trilogy.

See Han's post on page 4

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The Catalyst is the sum of his programming. If it was only programmed to monitor the Milky Way, it is conceivable that the Reapers would never have ventured outside of it. It may have been programmed that way as well, since its intended function was to monitor the Leviathan's vassals, all of whom also resided in the Milky Way. Monitoring all life in the entire universe would have been an impossibility, so the Catalyst would need some limits placed on its focus. We just don't know what those limits were.

 

Personally I'd prefer that the Reapers were active in the entire Local Group, as it gives a convenient explanation for why there is no civilization on par with the ancient Leviathans (presumably) in Andromeda, but I think the devs can go in either direction without issue. The only thing we know about the Catalyst's programming was that it had a vague mandate to preserve life. Beyond that we know nothing, and nothing at all is said about other galaxies.

Yeah, with how far away the closest galactic groups besides ours are, the Reapers having a reach beyond that while still being as effective as they are makes little to no sense. The Catalyst could perhaps predict others would think the same thus use that distance as a buffer while it focused on the Local Galactic Group. And it means we get to still have Mass Relays in Andromeda. 

[Iakus]

Hmmm... but now that the Catalyst is dead the reapers, if any left are no longer controlled by the catalyst. They are chaotic. Each a "nation", independent, and have weaknesses because we blew them out of the sky. And without the Catalyst, they are now dumb.

 I admit finding Reapers in Andromeda who found themselves with true free will following the events of ME3 would be an interesting development...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 I admit finding Reapers in Andromeda who found themselves with true free will following the events of ME3 would be an interesting development...

Reminds me about that fake leak about Whisper(?) who was a Reaper that disagreed with the rest of his kind and became an ally. 

[ZipZap2000]

No it wouldn't.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Synthesis canon. We go to impose Synthesis on all life in the universe.

[Lunch Box1912]

▲ I just threw up in my mouth

[ZipZap2000]

Synthesis canon. We go to impose Synthesis on all life in the universe.

We could impose order on the chaos of organic evolution.

I like it.

[Drone223]

See Han's post on page 4

None of that can be done a few months let alone 3 years it would take a few centuries (or many decades at best) for the galaxy to develop such technology. Also at no point in the trilogy or the EU did the galaxy show any potential of being able to develop the means to travel to other galaxies. The technology to travel to other galaxies in the trilogy simply doesn't exist in the time frame of the trilogy.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Indeed.  The Reapers should want to invade every galaxy they can reach for just that reason

 

Except no such limitation exists.  Both the Catalyst and the Leviathan say "preserve life" not "preserve life in this galaxy"

 

And the Catalyst's interpretation of "preserve life" was "turn everyone into space slush and stick them into glorified attack drones every 50 000 years".

 

From there, having the Catalyst not bother with places other than the Milky Way doesn't seem like such a stretch.

[Iakus]

And the Catalyst's interpretation of "preserve life" was "turn everyone into space slush and stick them into glorified attack drones every 50 000 years".

From there, having the Catalyst not bother with places other than the Milky Way doesn't seem like such a stretch.

On the contrary, I think it demonstrates a level of extremism in the pursuit of the Catslyst's goal that it would not let mere distance deter it. Not if it had the ability to overcome it. The Catalyst is willing to butcher the galaxy every 50,000 years. It built the relay network and the Citadel to shape the development of galactic civilization to suit it's purposes. What won't it do to achieve its goals?

[themikefest]

On the contrary, I think it demonstrates a level of extremism in the pursuit of the Catslyst's goal that it would not let mere distance deter it. Not if it had the ability to overcome it. The Catalyst is willing to butcher the galaxy every 50,000 years. It built the relay network and the Citadel to shape the development of galactic civilization to suit it's purposes. What won't it do to achieve its goals?

Wasn't the relays built to make the cycle more efficient? Seems like the thing was impatient. It got bored. Had its toys build the relays. Wonder how long the cycles were before the relays were built?

[DarthSliver]

Well we are all forgetting the biggest issue here is that the red button on that panel that Shepard was reaching for didn't happen to get pressed and didn't become the the destroy all Reapers button that it should've been. 

 

The Catalyst is the biggest reason why ME3 is a letdown in my opinion then they justify its information with Leviathan DLC. To be completely honest, I am disappointed that Reaper Indocrination didn't happen on Shepard to stop us. Instead they turned the Reapers into Galactic Terminators that use the Milky Way as a test lab so other Terminators can't do what they are doing. The solution was maybe organics shouldn't be treating AI as simple mind slaves, not to mention its usually the creators aggronance that causes the issues by just looking at Geth vs Quarrans. 

 

So now we are left with the question "why didn't they make Andromeda into a cycle fest too?" and this is all because instead of just canonizing Destroy or having a vote system for most fan appealing ending. They are taking us to Andromeda to flee the mess the ME3 endings made and yes a mess because thats why we are going to a new galaxy so they don't have to clean the mess up. 

 

But you see I think the Reapers went to other galaxies, Sorta feel their numbers don't match up with how many cycles actually occurred in the MW. It probably will go like they were working on setting up a cycle in Andromeda but we messed that up in MW by winning. If they didn't go to other galaxies, maybe its because the Catalyst couldn't control the Reapers that far of a distance maybe?

[Gothfather]

It's going to take some serious handwaving to explain why there are no Leviathans or Reapers in Andromeda.

 

It will takes zero hand waving.

 

The Leviathans were not the first technologically advance race. They are an aquatic species their technology was limited by their environment. Then an advance race arrives on their planet their ability to indoctrinate allows them to capture said race and use their technology to boost their own. Obviously their capture of the first servitor race happened in stages, over time. Once they were freed from their planet by "stealing" tech they started enslaving the galaxy.  Their servitor races would advance in technology create AIs that would rebel and then wars would be fought between the created vs the creators in cycle after cycle and it was disruptive to the tribute system the Leviathans created. Leviathan's tech in not their own it was taken from their servitor races. This is all TOLD in broad strokes in the Leviathan DLC.

 

They created the catalyst solve a problem how to stop their servitor races from destroying themselves. The Leviathan races didn't have this problem as they don't advance on their own technologically they use servitor races to do so. But the disruption to their tribute was problematic for them losing races to the same cycle over and over again. So the Catalyst was designed to solve the problem. And it "solved" it by "preserving" every advance organic race's knowledge, culture and history within the reapers created in each cycle. This resulted in the Leviathans being harvested except a remnant, and we have seen how remnants from a cycle can survive already so no hand waving required so far. The Leviathan remnant has survived by staying hidden because the catalyst is still looking for signs of their existence or at least that is what Leviathan's fear. 

 

The reapers are a solution to a very specific problem for a very localized area. The catalyst was not created to stop ALL life from creating AI. Catalyst was designed to stop the Leviathan servitor races from disruption tribute payments by creating AIs that would result in them destroying themselves. The catalyst has ZERO reason to expand its solution to any other galaxy. Its solution stopped the cycle of a servitor race creating an Ai that would result in synthetic/organic wars among the leviathan servitor races. Once the cycles were established in the Milky way it "solved" its directive and doesn't need to expand this to neighbouring galaxies. Again this is all in the game already. In fact the catalyst states that it is the manifestation of ALL Reaper intelligence and the destroy option will destroy ALL reapers. We are told reapers 'hibernate' between cycles I even believe this is confirmed by the catalyst. Again no hand waving to explain where reapers are between cycles. We also know that the solution to stop the reapers requires the mass relay system and that there is ZERO evidence that this system extends to other galaxies. 

 

The reapers have a very limited mandate because they were programmed as such, they have zero motivation to do anything but "solve" the problem of Leviathan servitor races advancing till they destroyed themselves and it isn't a large leap nor does it need extensive hand waving to imagine that the leviathans limited the scope to just the milky way. AKA defined servitor races to all races within the milky way. I mean I don't define most things in relationship to visible universe why would the Leviathans? When people complain to the authorities to solve issues they don't expect them to solve them in relationship to the known universe they expect things to be solved within a LIMITED scope. Solve the issue of traffic congestion in my city not the world. Solve the issue of crime in my neighbourhood not the solar system. Solve the issue of X within the nation not the galaxy. There is zero reason to think that the leviathans decided that they were going to solve their specific problem of THEIR servitor races destroying themselves in the context of finding a solution to this issue in the entire universe. people don't approach problems in this way.

 

 

There is ZERO reason to extrapolate the Reaper problem to outside the milky way. There is ample evidence to suggest it was confined here and we know that ALL reapers where in the milky way at the time of ME3 because we are told. The games provides no evidence that reapers ever went to other galaxies while there is evidence (but not proof) that they confined their operation to the milky way.

 

And this isn't a case of lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. I don't have to provide evidence of lack when their is no evidence that contradicts said notion. In other words, I don't have to prove that the posting on the BSN isn't the means by which Aliens are kept from destroying the earth. Someone has to provide evidence that posting on the BSN is the reason why aliens can't destroy the earth. It is not a valid argument when i point out that there is no evidence for the BSN posts saving the world to say lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack. There actually has to be evidence to suggest something before you need evidence of lack.

 

So no there isn't any hand waving required as all of the above can be gleamed by the existing game. Please if you have EVIDENCE to the contrary provide it. What evidence is there that the reapers are in Andromeda?

[CosmicGnosis]

It's such a shame that so many of you just don't like the Reaper plot and the ending choices. Creator vs. Created, God vs. Humanity, Organic vs. Synthetic, Order vs. Chaos... these are all fascinating concepts that are represented by the choices of Destruction, Control, and Synthesis. The whole thing could have been handled better, but I appreciate the attempt. I'm actually able to enjoy the ME3 ending and all of its philosophical implications.

 

The scale is enormous; Shepard's choice is the biggest since the creation of the harvest cycle at least one billion years ago. It's impossible to truly comprehend something so grand. It's no surprise that Shepard passes into myth. As long as history survives the passing of the eons, Shepard will be remembered for all time. And this is why I want the fate of the Milky Way to have some kind of effect on Andromeda. Completely ignoring the ending choices actually diminishes their epic consequences.

[Balsam Beige]

It's such a shame that so many of you just don't like the Reaper plot and the ending choices. Creator vs. Created, God vs. Humanity, Organic vs. Synthetic, Order vs. Chaos... these are all fascinating concepts that are represented by the choices of Destruction, Control, and Synthesis. The whole thing could have been handled better, but I appreciate the attempt. I'm actually able to enjoy the ME3 ending and all of its philosophical implications.
 
The scale is enormous; Shepard's choice is the biggest since the creation of the harvest cycle at least one billion years ago. It's impossible to truly comprehend something so grand. It's no surprise that Shepard passes into myth. As long as history survives the passing of the eons, Shepard will be remembered for all time. And this is why I want the fate of the Milky Way to have some kind of effect on Andromeda. Completely ignoring the ending choices actually diminishes their epic consequences.

It was such a shame when I first finished the original endings and almost threw my game controller through my 52 inch television because of the nonsense.

[Goatmanwashere]

It's going to take some serious handwaving to explain why there are no Leviathans or Reapers in Andromeda.

 

How so? The Reaper's programming and directive seemingly specify that their goal is to preserve life in the MIlky Way Galaxy, so there is absolutely no reason for why they would bother with Andromeda. Had their programming included the directive to preserve life the entire Universe or just he Local Group, then they would've had reason to travel to Andromeda - but since there are at least 54 galaxies just in the Local Group, many of which are closer to the Milky Way (and smaller which would make them easier to reap), one wonders why their presence in Andromeda would be such a certainty. This would further derail into the area where we are forced to ponder where the Reapers core directives end and begin, how they would go about achieving this enormous task, etc. They are not infinite in number and has to start from scratch at each new galaxy (and who knows how long it actually took them to initially subjugate all the species of the Milky Way, and build the Cittadel and the Mass Relays), turning it all into a logistical nightmare even for the Catalyst (eg. how many ships can we send to this galaxy while still mainting our duties in these galaxies). Besides, their presence would go against what seems to have been the Leviathans wishes. The Leviathan were concerned about why their servants in the Milky Way were dying out, and since there is no indication they ever bothered with any other galaxy, those galaxies wouldn't be included in the Reapers directive.

 

Whether you consider all this handwaving or not is another discussion entirely... though if you do, I would wonder what piece of lore in fiction you do not consider handwaving.

 

On the contrary, I think it demonstrates a level of extremism in the pursuit of the Catslyst's goal that it would not let mere distance deter it. Not if it had the ability to overcome it. The Catalyst is willing to butcher the galaxy every 50,000 years. It built the relay network and the Citadel to shape the development of galactic civilization to suit it's purposes. What won't it do to achieve its goals?

 

There is absolutely nothing to indicate their directive was to implement this solution beyond the Milky Way Galaxy however.