457 réponses à ce sujet

[Mistic]

On the contrary, I think it demonstrates a level of extremism in the pursuit of the Catslyst's goal that it would not let mere distance deter it. Not if it had the ability to overcome it. The Catalyst is willing to butcher the galaxy every 50,000 years. It built the relay network and the Citadel to shape the development of galactic civilization to suit it's purposes. What won't it do to achieve its goals?

 

They won't think outside the box, for starters.

 

They had time and resources, and we know what they didn't do with them: they didn't invade other galaxies (they admit they spend most of the time awaiting the next cyle) and they didn't explore every alternative, instead choosing their first solution as the best and only solution. A very human mistake, actually. What's more, they wasted them into making sure that future civilizations would evolve in the same way. You know, the way that ended so badly in the past. One of the points the series makes since the very ME is that Reapers are stagnant, lack originality and creativity, have to steal from other races and prefer easily controlled environments instead of risky adventures.

 

That's not a very high-level logical fanatism. That's the fanatism of an Inquisitor which is content with policing the people of the country he lives in or an isolationist empire who controls its subjects with an iron fist but ignores what happens beyond its walls.

 

Not to mention that Insane Troll Logic may be applied to Andromeda too, in at least two ways:

 

1-The directive was to find a solution to the conflict between organics and synthetics in the Leviathans' former dominion (that is, the Milky Way). What other galaxies may do is their own problem. In fact, in the most extreme scenario, if an alien AI invades the MW is not the Reapers' problem, since they weren't programmed to solve conflicts between galaxies.

 

2-Should they even fear an AI invasion? The only AI civilization we have for a comparison is the geth, who were pretty much content with the idea of building a Dyson sphere and live their lives alone. The Catalyst may think that every synthetic lifeform, once it wins, will become an isolationist society. Terrible for their doomed organic creators, but certainly not a danger to other galaxies.

[CronoDragoon]

Believe it or not I do want MEA to be a fresh start.

 

If that's true then why are you unwilling to make any assumptions that would resolve what is in your mind this important plot point, but are willing to make assumptions that compound it as a problem? We don't actually know what the Catalyst's mandate was. We are never presented with its programming code. There are many assumptions we could make that would resolve this issue. Such as: the Leviathans were not a space-faring race and were only concerned with local tribute: the broadest they were willing to consider gaining tribute was within the Milky Way. Therefore, when they programmed the Catalyst, they used the word "galaxy" or more probably a specific circumference to define the Catalyst's area of operation instead of "everywhere" or "universe."

 

There's nothing that can ever prove or disprove this, but if Andromeda comes along and there's no Reapers, it would be a consistent assumption. So given that Andromeda will likely not have anything to do with Reapers, what exactly is the harm of assuming something that resolves a possible plot hole which doesn't actually have anything to do with the story being told? It will be by definition irrelevant to the story BioWare wants to tell.

[Mistic]

There are many assumptions we could make that would resolve this issue. Such as: the Leviathans were not a space-faring race and were only concerned with local tribute: the broadest they were willing to consider gaining tribute was within the Milky Way. Therefore, when they programmed the Catalyst, they used the word "galaxy" or more probably a specific circumference to define the Catalyst's area of operation instead of "everywhere" or "universe."

 

That's a good point. Otherwise, if the Catalyst followed a general directive like "protect all life", it should have explored all the universe to gather data before reaching a conclusion, shouldn't it?

[Sylvius the Mad]

It's true we don't know, but if they have, where are they? What happened to them? That's important.

And if they haven't then why? Their mandate is to protect "all life" and their single minded focus, which has trapped the entire galaxy, including their own creators, in a cycle of destruction for a billion years or more, is unlikely to be thwarted because they "inferred" a limit to this galaxy.

That leaves a physical limit. Okay for whatever reason the Reapers were physically prevented from making the trip. What was that limit and how did we overcome it? What makes humans so special yet again? This too is important.

They don't need to have inferred a limit. That limit might have been hard-coded. It might even have been hard-coded by accident.

[Battlebloodmage]

Maybe it was in the South part of town of the galaxy, and the Reapers don't want to get robbed. 

[Killroy]

It's such a shame that so many of you just don't like the Reaper plot and the ending choices. Creator vs. Created, God vs. Humanity, Organic vs. Synthetic, Order vs. Chaos... these are all fascinating concepts that are represented by the choices of Destruction, Control, and Synthesis. The whole thing could have been handled better, but I appreciate the attempt. I'm actually able to enjoy the ME3 ending and all of its philosophical implications.

 

The scale is enormous; Shepard's choice is the biggest since the creation of the harvest cycle at least one billion years ago. It's impossible to truly comprehend something so grand. It's no surprise that Shepard passes into myth. As long as history survives the passing of the eons, Shepard will be remembered for all time. And this is why I want the fate of the Milky Way to have some kind of effect on Andromeda. Completely ignoring the ending choices actually diminishes their epic consequences.

 

[CronoDragoon]

Andromeda ignoring the ending choices just means it properly evaluates the ending consequences, since the Crucible's effects were contained within the Milky Way. It was never a universal change.

[DarthSliver]

Maybe we are setting up our own Relay Network but a massive Relay for jumping between MW and Andromeda. But before we do that, our people must establish themselves in Andromeda and probably figure out the best location to place it. 

 

I don't think the endings of ME3 should be ignored in MEA because its obviously we need the cycles in MW to have been ended to be able to reach Andromeda in the first place. I wouldn't mind a canon ending  to ME series so we can get a game series like "Meanwhile in MW . . . " type of thing. 

 

The thread question is brought up because we all know or feel at this time that Andromeda move is getting away from the endings despite the fact in the ME series we don't have the means to get to another galaxy. This means that we had to have won against the Reapers to even get to Andromeda and with Bioware refusing to make a canon ending to the Trilogy it has left more questions than anything else. We are trying to figure this out with logical conclusion just as much as hardcore fans of Star Wars are trying very hard to figure out who Supreme Leader Snoke is or who is the parents of Rey. We just want answers to things. But I figured out enough to know that the Reaper war we won in METrilogy propelled us to be able to make intergalactic travel and that the Reapers were probably capable of getting to other Galaxies but were solely focused on solving the Synethic vs Organic issue they failed to see they were part of the issue. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

And let's not forget that we're getting hand-me-down "oral" history from Leviathan that's over a billion years old. 

 

"You have come too far."

 

You know we've discussed this crap I don't know how many times and still people don't get it. Their directive was to preserve life. So they made jam out of it. I still don't know what the purpose of preserving the knowledge was for. We don't learn that until the miracle of synthesis. But it seems like the Catalyst pulled that out of his hind quarters only once before and it failed because "it cannot be forced." Meaning what? How did they try it? I know... I know... you wouldn't know them and there isn't time to explain. But for some stupid reason Shepard is special. Shepard is ready. Or is it humans are special. Humans are ready? Really? Is that what the whole thing was about? And The Shepard is the sacrifice for all the galaxy for their sins? 

 

No, you say. You killed Sovereign. You destroyed the reapers. You survived. OR You're now a reaper god policing the galaxy trying to solve the problem of maintaining peace between organics and synthetics.

 

Please.... get out of the MW before the ending and get as far away as possible. Leave this behind. Please.

[Iakus]

How so? The Reaper's programming and directive seemingly specify that their goal is to preserve life in the MIlky Way Galaxy, so there is absolutely no reason for why they would bother with Andromeda. Had their programming included the directive to preserve life the entire Universe or just he Local Group, then they would've had reason to travel to Andromeda - but since there are at least 54 galaxies just in the Local Group, many of which are closer to the Milky Way (and smaller which would make them easier to reap), one wonders why their presence in Andromeda would be such a certainty. This would further derail into the area where we are forced to ponder where the Reapers core directives end and begin, how they would go about achieving this enormous task, etc. They are not infinite in number and has to start from scratch at each new galaxy (and who knows how long it actually took them to initially subjugate all the species of the Milky Way, and build the Cittadel and the Mass Relays), turning it all into a logistical nightmare even for the Catalyst (eg. how many ships can we send to this galaxy while still mainting our duties in these galaxies). Besides, their presence would go against what seems to have been the Leviathans wishes. The Leviathan were concerned about why their servants in the Milky Way were dying out, and since there is no indication they ever bothered with any other galaxy, those galaxies wouldn't be included in the Reapers directive.

 

Whether you consider all this handwaving or not is another discussion entirely... though if you do, I would wonder what piece of lore in fiction you do not consider handwaving.

 

 

Actually, their directive does not specify a limit to the Milky Way.  Their goal is to "preserve life" not "galactic life' or "Milky Way life"  but life in general.  And "at all costs"  They are functioning without limits.

 

It may be a massive task, and a logistical nightmare, as you said.  But the Reapers are functionally immortal and with the resources of an entire galaxy at their disposal.

 

And recall, they subjugated the Milky Way the first time without a single "true" Reaper.

[Iakus]

 

That's not a very high-level logical fanatism. That's the fanatism of an Inquisitor which is content with policing the people of the country he lives in or an isolationist empire who controls its subjects with an iron fist but ignores what happens beyond its walls.

 

Not to mention that Insane Troll Logic may be applied to Andromeda too, in at least two ways:

 

1-The directive was to find a solution to the conflict between organics and synthetics in the Leviathans' former dominion (that is, the Milky Way). What other galaxies may do is their own problem. In fact, in the most extreme scenario, if an alien AI invades the MW is not the Reapers' problem, since they weren't programmed to solve conflicts between galaxies.

 

2-Should they even fear an AI invasion? The only AI civilization we have for a comparison is the geth, who were pretty much content with the idea of building a Dyson sphere and live their lives alone. The Catalyst may think that every synthetic lifeform, once it wins, will become an isolationist society. Terrible for their doomed organic creators, but certainly not a danger to other galaxies.

1) Except what happens in other galaxies will eventually effect this one, assuming it's possible to travel beyond your home galaxy.  If organic life arises in other galaxies, they will "inevitably" create synthetics that will surpass their masters, go Skynet, and destroy all organic life.  The Reapers cannot risk them coming here.  It is the Reapers' problem because it is their mandate to "preserve life"

 

2) The Catalyst is convinced that given enough time, synthetics will exterminate all organic life.  It is "inevitable" You can't even challenge the Catalyst with the geth way of thinking.

[Iakus]

Andromeda ignoring the ending choices just means it properly evaluates the ending consequences, since the Crucible's effects were contained within the Milky Way. It was never a universal change.

 

I am not, in principle, against ignoring the endings.  As long as they're honest about it.  However, the existence of a power as great as the Reapers, with a mandate of such massive scope, leaves a greater mess than the Bioware writers intended.  Fleeing to a nearby galaxy rather than admitting they hadn't considered these ramifications is not a good way to start a "new" story.

 

Edit:  I guess my problem is:  I thought through the logical ramifications of the Reapers better than the writers did.

 

And let's not forget that we're getting hand-me-down "oral" history from Leviathan that's over a billion years old. 

 

"You have come too far."

 

You know we've discussed this crap I don't know how many times and still people don't get it. Their directive was to preserve life. So they made jam out of it. I still don't know what the purpose of preserving the knowledge was for. We don't learn that until the miracle of synthesis. But it seems like the Catalyst pulled that out of his hind quarters only once before and it failed because "it cannot be forced." Meaning what? How did they try it? I know... I know... you wouldn't know them and there isn't time to explain. But for some stupid reason Shepard is special. Shepard is ready. Or is it humans are special. Humans are ready? Really? Is that what the whole thing was about? And The Shepard is the sacrifice for all the galaxy for their sins? 

 

No, you say. You killed Sovereign. You destroyed the reapers. You survived. OR You're now a reaper god policing the galaxy trying to solve the problem of maintaining peace between organics and synthetics.

 

Please.... get out of the MW before the ending and get as far away as possible. Leave this behind. Please.

Problem is, the Leviathan and Catalyst stories line up.  "There was no mistake, it still serves its purpose" (new theory, the Catalyst was originally an AI that ran a jam cannery)  So however insane and troll the Catalyst's logic is, the writers intended it to be "true"  Heck they charged us ten bucks for confirmation on everything it said.

 

And if what we were told is true, however insane, then the mess the Leviathans made is easily spread even further than this galaxy.  Andromeda is simply not far enough away to run.  The entire local cluster may not be enough!

[Drone223]

They don't need to have inferred a limit. That limit might have been hard-coded. It might even have been hard-coded by accident.

If there were indeed limits then the mandate wouldn't be as broad as "preserve all life" and catalyst wouldn't had turned the leviathans into reaper goo. But the mandate the catalyst was given was broad and its why the it turned against its creators so its more than likely that no limits were given to it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

No such limit was brought up by the leviathans when they talked about the catalysts goal, "preserve all life" is an extremely broad mandate.

The leviathans might not be aware of the limitation. Or they could think it's so obvious as to not bother mentioning it.

Imagine this:

All life = life in any location

Location = defined by distance and direction from centre of milky way

Distance = measured using a finite scale

See the problem?

[Eryri]

1) Except what happens in other galaxies will eventually effect this one, assuming it's possible to travel beyond your home galaxy.  If organic life arises in other galaxies, they will "inevitably" create synthetics that will surpass their masters, go Skynet, and destroy all organic life.  The Reapers cannot risk them coming here.   It is the Reapers' problem because it is their mandate to "preserve life"
 
2) The Catalyst is convinced that given enough time, synthetics will exterminate all organic life.  It is "inevitable" You can't even challenge the Catalyst with the geth way of thinking.

The Reapers have another problem related to the above. The Reapers are handicapped by their need to 'preserve' organics, both in terms of leaving undeveloped species alone, and by their ridiculously slow method of only reproducing every 50k years. A hypothetical super AI, of the sort that the Catalyst apparently has nightmares about, would have no such restrictions. If it's indifferent or outright hostile to Organics then it could strip mine every world in its home galaxy and build an armada that makes the Reapers seem utterly puny, one that really could 'darken the sky of every world'. The Reapers would be hopelessly outmatched by a genuine, fully-fledged, recursively self-improving AI singularity. Their only defence would be to nip it in the bud before it arises. Which would mean policing the entire local group. An admittedly impossible task, but one that flows naturally from the Catalyst's back assward troll logic.

[Drone223]

The leviathans might not be aware of the limitation. Or they could think it's so obvious as to not bother mentioning it.

Imagine this:

All life = life in any location

Location = defined by distance and direction from centre of milky way

Distance = measured using a finite scale

See the problem?

If the mandate had limits then the leviathans would've made the mandate "preserve all life in this specific galaxy" but this is not the case. The mandate was just "preserve all life" it didn't go into any specifics and the they gave the catalyst free reign to interpret it as it saw fit.

[CronoDragoon]

If the mandate had limits then the leviathans would've made the mandate "preserve all life in this specific galaxy" but this is not the case. The mandate was just "preserve all life" it didn't go into any specifics and the they gave the catalyst free reign to interpret it as it saw fit.

 

"Preserve all life" isn't a programmable mandate, and it's not even clear that is a summary of the actual mandate. The Catalyst gives a different account of what his mandate was, by saying it was to create balance and preserve peace between organics and synthetics. Point being, we have no actual idea what the specific language is that governs the Catalyst's behavior. It might well have been limited to the galaxy.

[azarhal]

it should have explored all the universe to gather data before reaching a conclusion, shouldn't it?

 

The Catalyst didn't have reapers or a mass relays networks when it decided that harvesting was the most efficient solution to the problem of synthetic vs organics. That all happened after it destroyed the Leviathans and made the first reaper (Harbringer).

 

What it had was some sort of "pawns" that collected data for him. Going by the term "pawns", it was probably indoctrinated organics instead of machines (kinda like the Collectors). The Catalyst range of action was always limited to the resources under its control. He's far from being omnipotent.

[Drone223]

"Preserve all life" isn't a programmable mandate, and it's not even clear that is a summary of the actual mandate. The Catalyst gives a different account of what his mandate was, by saying it was to create balance and preserve peace between organics and synthetics. Point being, we have no actual idea what the specific language is that governs the Catalyst's behavior. It might well have been limited to the galaxy.

But the leviathans did create the catalyst with the goal "preserve all life at any costs."  They gave it no limitations as to how to carry out its goal (its why the leviathans were forced into hiding). If limitations existed then the catalyst wouldn't be given free reign to carry out its goal and its mandate would've been more specific.

[CronoDragoon]

But the leviathans did create the catalyst with the goal "preserve all life at any costs."  They gave it no limitations as to how to carry out its goal (its why the leviathans were forced into hiding). If limitations existed then the catalyst wouldn't be given free reign to carry out its goal and its mandate would've been more specific.

 

Those are different sorts of limitations (in any case, since semantics are important here, it's "preserve life" not "preserve all life." Like I said, I don't think it ultimately matters because it's certainly not the actual language given to the Catalyst's coding). It's entirely possible that while the Leviathans didn't limit the Catalyst on the means, they did on the distance. After all, it doesn't help them if the Catalyst takes off for another galaxy and leaves the Milky Way alone.

[Killroy]

Ignore Drone. He can't wrap his head around the Leviathans. He thinks the Leviathans we encountered in the DLC are the same ones that made the Catalyst.

[Gothfather]

/snip

 

 

There is absolutely nothing to indicate their directive was to implement this solution beyond the Milky Way Galaxy however.

 

Not only that but there is evidence that the directive is limited to the milky way. That evidence being that the Leviathans created the catalyst to solve the problem of servitor races creating AI, those AI rebel against their creators. This starts a war which results in disruption to the tribute system the Leviathans created. The core problem the Leviathans were trying to solve was the disruption to the tribute system. They were not trying to solve the problem of the root cause of organic-synthetic conflict. Ergo the catalyst "solution" doesn't need to expand past the milky way because Leviathans never left the milky way so there were and are no servitor races outside our galaxy.

[Iakus]

The Reapers have another problem related to the above. The Reapers are handicapped by their need to 'preserve' organics, both in terms of leaving undeveloped species alone, and by their ridiculously slow method of only reproducing every 50k years. A hypothetical super AI, of the sort that the Catalyst apparently has nightmares about, would have no such restrictions. If it's indifferent or outright hostile to Organics then it could strip mine every world in its home galaxy and build an armada that makes the Reapers seem utterly puny, one that really could 'darken the sky of every world'. The Reapers would be hopelessly outmatched by a genuine, fully-fledged, recursively self-improving AI singularity. Their only defence would be to nip it in the bud before it arises. Which would mean policing the entire local group. An admittedly impossible task, but one that flows naturally from the Catalyst's back assward troll logic.

This human understands

[Iakus]

If the mandate had limits then the leviathans would've made the mandate "preserve all life in this specific galaxy" but this is not the case. The mandate was just "preserve all life" it didn't go into any specifics and the they gave the catalyst free reign to interpret it as it saw fit.

in fact, it's the lack of specifics that got them mulched to begin with

[Sylvius the Mad]

If the mandate had limits then the leviathans would've made the mandate "preserve all life in this specific galaxy" but this is not the case. The mandate was just "preserve all life" it didn't go into any specifics and the they gave the catalyst free reign to interpret it as it saw fit.

Using natural language to try to understand a computer is folly.

Unless we can see the code, and we can't, we don't know for sure whether there are limitations.