457 réponses à ce sujet

[Gothfather]

But the leviathans did create the catalyst with the goal "preserve all life at any costs."  They gave it no limitations as to how to carry out its goal (its why the leviathans were forced into hiding). If limitations existed then the catalyst wouldn't be given free reign to carry out its goal and its mandate would've been more specific.

No. False. The leviathans created the catalyst to solve the problem of the endless cycle of organics creating synthetics which rebelled. Which cause wars that would destroy their servitors and that  would stop tribute payments.

 

The Leviathans goal was to maintain the tribute system. The catalyst 'solves' this by harvesting. It harvests the Leviathans and the original reapers are formed then it harvests all advance organic life preserving its organic dna, its culture and history along with resources to further the Neo-Leviathans aka the original reapers. The harvesting of the cycles is the ultimate form of the tribute system. It isn't about preserving life for life's sake.

 

There is zero reason the catalyst would feel a need to expand this beyond the Milky way. The leviathans never laid claim to the visible universe they only laid claim to all of the milky way. You don't buy a guard dog to guard your neighbours home you buy it for your home. You don't vote for city mayor to solve the problems of a neighbouring city you elect the mayor to solve the problems of your city. people don't think of solutions on a universal level they think what will solve the problem on the local level.

 

Nothing in the game suggests the idea that reapers are beyond the milky way yet there is plenty of evidence (granted not proof) that points to them confining their solution on the local level aka the milky way.

[Iakus]

"Preserve all life" isn't a programmable mandate, and it's not even clear that is a summary of the actual mandate. The Catalyst gives a different account of what his mandate was, by saying it was to create balance and preserve peace between organics and synthetics. Point being, we have no actual idea what the specific language is that governs the Catalyst's behavior. It might well have been limited to the galaxy.

"The lesser species were in our thrall, serving our needs. We grew more powerful, and they were cared for. But we could not protect them from themselves. Over time, the species built machines that then destroyed them. Tribute does not flow from a dead race.  To solve this problem, we created an intelligence with the mandate to preserve life at any cost."

 

"The intelligence has one purpose: preservation of life. That purpose has not been fulfilled"

[CronoDragoon]

"The lesser species were in our thrall, serving our needs. We grew more powerful, and they were cared for. But we could not protect them from themselves. Over time, the species built machines that then destroyed them. Tribute does not flow from a dead race.  To solve this problem, we created an intelligence with the mandate to preserve life at any cost."

 

"The intelligence has one purpose: preservation of life. That purpose has not been fulfilled"

 

I know. I just rewatched both the Leviathan and Catalyst convos to make sure I was giving correct info.

 

The Catalyst says what I said above he says. And still the point remains that we have no idea what the actual command was and never will. At some point the Leviathans will have had to define life, and we don't know how they did so. If they defined life as "all sentient beings in the galaxy" then this becomes a non-issue. We just don't know.

[AresKeith]

"The lesser species were in our thrall, serving our needs. We grew more powerful, and they were cared for. But we could not protect them from themselves. Over time, the species built machines that then destroyed them. Tribute does not flow from a dead race. To solve this problem, we created an intelligence with the mandate to preserve life at any cost."

"The intelligence has one purpose: preservation of life. That purpose has not been fulfilled"

Note that you bolded preserve life and not preserve all life

[Mistic]

1) Except what happens in other galaxies will eventually effect this one, assuming it's possible to travel beyond your home galaxy.  If organic life arises in other galaxies, they will "inevitably" create synthetics that will surpass their masters, go Skynet, and destroy all organic life.  The Reapers cannot risk them coming here.  It is the Reapers' problem because it is their mandate to "preserve life"

 

2) The Catalyst is convinced that given enough time, synthetics will exterminate all organic life.  It is "inevitable" You can't even challenge the Catalyst with the geth way of thinking.

 

1) That's only if we assume there was no limit in their programation.

 

2) The Catalyst never suggests that AI are evil genocidal monsters hellbent on destroying all life in the universe. In its own words, organics create synthetics to improve their existence. But that has limits. To exceed those limits, synthetics must evolve so, by definition, they will try to surpass their creators. "The result is conflict, destruction, chaos. It is inevitable". The implication is that sooner or later organics will screw it again and create another AI that will wage war against them, a war that will bring mutual assured destruction. The Catalyst is in fact trying to save them both ("Reapers harvest all life -organic and synthetic- preserving them before they are forever lost to this conflict").

 

Edit:  I guess my problem is:  I thought through the logical ramifications of the Reapers better than the writers did.

 

I'd dare to say that players realizing the holes in the plot and the explanations is a grand Mass Effect tradition.

 

Considering this, it may be for the best if Bioware never answers this question. For those who don't care (the vast majority, I suspect), it'll change nothing. For those who do, I think canon might be more disappointing than fanon.

 

The Catalyst didn't have reapers or a mass relays networks when it decided that harvesting was the most efficient solution to the problem of synthetic vs organics. That all happened after it destroyed the Leviathans and made the first reaper (Harbringer).

 

What it had was some sort of "pawns" that collected data for him. Going by the term "pawns", it was probably indoctrinated organics instead of machines (kinda like the Collectors). The Catalyst range of action was always limited to the resources under its control. He's far from being omnipotent.

 

An abolute directive should force them to look for better means instead of quick fixes, shouldn't it? After all, if it's so absolute that they fear AI invasions from other galaxies would jeopardize their plan, it should be so absolute that they fear that not having enough information would jeopardize the task they were entrusted with.

[Iakus]

Note that you bolded preserve life and not preserve all life

I also didn't highlight "please mulch us" 

[Sylvius the Mad]

in fact, it's the lack of specifics that got them mulched to begin with

But that lack of specifics creates opportunities for other unforeseen gaps.

[Sylvius the Mad]

But the leviathans did create the catalyst with the goal "preserve all life at any costs." They gave it no limitations as to how to carry out its goal (its why the leviathans were forced into hiding). If limitations existed then the catalyst wouldn't be given free reign to carry out its goal and its mandate would've been more specific.

1. You're assuming the leviathans told you the whole truth.

2. You're assuming the Catalyst was similarly honest.

3. You're assuming definitions for "preserve", "all", "life", and "any".

Your assumptions are creating this problem for you.

[Sylvius the Mad]

1) Except what happens in other galaxies will eventually effect this one, assuming it's possible to travel beyond your home galaxy. If organic life arises in other galaxies, they will "inevitably" create synthetics that will surpass their masters, go Skynet, and destroy all organic life. The Reapers cannot risk them coming here. It is the Reapers' problem because it is their mandate to "preserve life"

2) The Catalyst is convinced that given enough time, synthetics will exterminate all organic life. It is "inevitable" You can't even challenge the Catalyst with the geth way of thinking.

Do you have any direct evidence that the Reapers are even aware that other galaxies exist, let alone what they are?

[Gothfather]

1) That's only if we assume there was no limit in their programation.

 

2) The Catalyst never suggests that AI are evil genocidal monsters hellbent on destroying all life in the universe. In its own words, organics create synthetics to improve their existence. But that has limits. To exceed those limits, synthetics must evolve so, by definition, they will try to surpass their creators. "The result is conflict, destruction, chaos. It is inevitable". The implication is that sooner or later organics will screw it again and create another AI that will wage war against them, a war that will bring mutual assured destruction. The Catalyst is in fact trying to save them both ("Reapers harvest all life -organic and synthetic- preserving them before they are forever lost to this conflict").

 

 

I'd dare to say that players realizing the holes in the plot and the explanations is a grand Mass Effect tradition.

 

Considering this, it may be for the best if Bioware never answers this question. For those who don't care (the vast majority, I suspect), it'll change nothing. For those who do, I think canon might be more disappointing than fanon.

 

You are expecting people to make inductive and deductive reasoning about the reapers, and then use this information to form a premiss. That isn't how the internet works. First you come up with an opinion, then search for evidence to support while ignoring all evidence to the contrary. And never EVER change your opinion based on the evidence other people present that is just being a wishy washy flip flopper.

 

Not only that but much of the refusal to accept that the reapers are likely to have been limited to the milky way, is because certain people on this thread have an agenda of trying to force Bioware to canonize one of the endings, or more specifically the ending THEY want canonized. Or it is the agenda to try and stop the game from being made in Andromeda so they try and "explain" why moving here doesn't make a difference so Bioware should just make the game in the Milky way. Aka certain posters here have an agenda and they don't care about facts and evidence they just want what they want period and everyone else can go frak themselves.

[Iakus]

1) That's only if we assume there was no limit in their programation.

 

 

 The lack of a "don't mulch me" instruction shows how far the Catalyst is willing to expand on its lack of programming, and exploit loopholes, in pursuit of its goal

 

 

 

 

2) The Catalyst never suggests that AI are evil genocidal monsters hellbent on destroying all life in the universe. In its own words, organics create synthetics to improve their existence. But that has limits. To exceed those limits, synthetics must evolve so, by definition, they will try to surpass their creators. "The result is conflict, destruction, chaos. It is inevitable". The implication is that sooner or later organics will screw it again and create another AI that will wage war against them, a war that will bring mutual assured destruction. The Catalyst is in fact trying to save them both ("Reapers harvest all life -organic and synthetic- preserving them before they are forever lost to this conflict").

 

No, but the Catalyst does state that conflict is "inevitable.  And that in the end, synthetics will wipe out all organics.  the Milky Way was locked down thanks to the harvests (by the Catalyst's way of thinking) but what if synthetic life arose in other galaxies?  What if they evolved unchecked and eventually came here?  

 

 

 

I'd dare to say that players realizing the holes in the plot and the explanations is a grand Mass Effect tradition.
Considering this, it may be for the best if Bioware never answers this question. For those who don't care (the vast majority, I suspect), it'll change nothing. For those who do, I think canon might be more disappointing than fanon.

If they want to reboot everything and pretend the trilogy never happened, I say go for it.  but if they hope to simply slip away from the mess they made,  nearby galaxies really isn't far enough   

[Iakus]

Do you have any direct evidence that the Reapers are even aware that other galaxies exist, let alone what they are?

I have as much evidence in that as I do that the Council is aware of them.

[LinksOcarina]

Do you have any direct evidence that the Reapers are even aware that other galaxies exist, let alone what they are?

 

Better question.

 

Why would they care about any other galaxy when their mandate was for the Milky Way only?

 

Of course, I am presuming that too...but it at least makes tangible sense. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

I have as much evidence in that as I do that the Council is aware of them.

So that's a no?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Better question.

Why would they care about any other galaxy when their mandate was for the Milky Way only?

Of course, I am presuming that too...but it at least makes tangible sense.

We don't need to presume that. We just need not presume the opposite.

http://mathworld.wol...isticLogic.html

[Mistic]

 The lack of a "don't mulch me" instruction shows how far the Catalyst is willing to expand on its lack of programming, and exploit loopholes, in pursuit of its goal

 

But its Insane Troll Logic in other instances shows that it isn't as free from its programming as it should be (otherwise, this whole mess wouldn't have started in the same place).

 

If there's something clear, it's that the Leviathans were lousy programmers.

 

No, but the Catalyst does state that conflict is "inevitable.  And that in the end, synthetics will wipe out all organics.  the Milky Way was locked down thanks to the harvests (by the Catalyst's way of thinking) but what if synthetic life arose in other galaxies?  What if they evolved unchecked and eventually came here?  

 

Ah, but again, that's assuming victorious AI would feel the need to impose that victory on other galaxies too. The Catalyst doesn't fear evil plans of galactic genocide, but "chaos" that would kill all, organics and synthetics, once synthetics try to surpass their creators. Given its very, very flawed logic, if the Catalyst thinks that the "inevitable" goal of synthetic life after destroying their creators is building Dyson spheres and staying put, convincing it of the alternative would be as hard as telling him that his harvesting system is bogus.

 

If they want to reboot everything and pretend the trilogy never happened, I say go for it.  but if they hope to simply slip away from the mess they made,  nearby galaxies really isn't far enough   

 

Can you blame them? They already tried to fix things with the Extended Cut, and I'm sure they don't want to go back to the whole ME3's ending debate.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The lack of a "don't mulch me" instruction shows how far the Catalyst is willing to expand on its lack of programming, and exploit loopholes, in pursuit of its goal.

By definition, though, it can only do that as far as it is able.

How far is that?

The lack of one limit is not evidence of the lack of all possible limits.

[Drone223]

1. You're assuming the leviathans told you the whole truth.
 

The leviathans created the catalyst if there were specifics they would've mentioned them.

 

2. You're assuming the Catalyst was similarly honest.

 

The leviathans said that it's still yet to complete its objective.

 

3. You're assuming definitions for "preserve", "all", "life", and "any".

 

They did not specify any limits in the catalysts programming since it was to carry it out at any costs.
 

Your assumptions are creating this problem for you.

 

No, they're based of what was told straight from the horses mouth.

 

[Drone223]

No. False. The leviathans created the catalyst to solve the problem of the endless cycle of organics creating synthetics which rebelled. Which cause wars that would destroy their servitors and that  would stop tribute payments.

 

The Leviathans goal was to maintain the tribute system. The catalyst 'solves' this by harvesting. It harvests the Leviathans and the original reapers are formed then it harvests all advance organic life preserving its organic dna, its culture and history along with resources to further the Neo-Leviathans aka the original reapers. The harvesting of the cycles is the ultimate form of the tribute system. It isn't about preserving life for life's sake.

No it wasn't, the catalyst was created by the leviathans to preserve life "at any costs" the leviathans said it themselves.

 

There is zero reason the catalyst would feel a need to expand this beyond the Milky way. The leviathans never laid claim to the visible universe they only laid claim to all of the milky way. You don't buy a guard dog to guard your neighbours home you buy it for your home. You don't vote for city mayor to solve the problems of a neighbouring city you elect the mayor to solve the problems of your city. people don't think of solutions on a universal level they think what will solve the problem on the local level.

Nothing in the game suggests the idea that reapers are beyond the milky way yet there is plenty of evidence (granted not proof) that points to them confining their solution on the local level aka the milky way.

 

 

 

Wrong, the catalyst had no limitations in its programming it would be logical for the catalyst to expand its harvesting to other galaxies (especially since the reaper's existed for billions of years). Also the leviathans didn't specify a particular galaxy in its programming they gave the catalyst an extremely broad mandate.

[ArabianIGoggles]

No it wasn't, the catalyst was created by the leviathans to preserve life "at any costs" the leviathans said it themselves.

 

Wrong, the catalyst had no limitations in its programming it would be logical for the catalyst to expand its harvesting to other galaxies (especially since the reaper's existed for billions of years). Also the leviathans didn't specify a particular galaxy in its programming they gave the catalyst an extremely broad mandate.

You couldn't possibly know what the leviathans are thinking.  There was one conversation with them.  You're just making things up at this point.

[AresKeith]

You couldn't possibly know what the leviathans are thinking. There was one conversation with them. You're just making things up at this point.

And that was a conversation with one that wasn't even born when it happened

[Sylvius the Mad]

The leviathans created the catalyst if there were specifics they would've mentioned them.

This doesn't address the point I raised.

Why do you trust anything the Leviathans tell you?

Maybe they're unaware of the limitations - they might have been included by accident, and the Leviathans have been so busy hiding that they haven't noticed that the Reapers are leaving other galaxies alone.

Or perhaps the Leviathans are trying to make the danger sound bigger than it is. They might have a cultural bias toward exaggeration (we even see this in Sovereign's statements about how the reapers will darken the sky with their numbers, which isn't true at all).

Maybe the limitation is the source of some embarrassment for the Leviathans, so they want you not to know about it.

There are so many possible explanations, and there is evidence to refute exactly none of them.

The leviathans said that it's still yet to complete its objective.

QED

They did not specify any limits in the catalysts programming since it was to carry it out at any costs.

Any limits of which you're aware.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

It could be something as simple as a data storage problem. Like how 2-digit dates didn't allow for the year 2000. That wasn't an intended limitation, but it still happened.

Or how the view counter on YouTube was a 32-bit integer, so it didn't allow numbers bigger than 2.2 billion. That wasn't an intended limitation, it was simply a consequence of how the site was coded, and they didn't think it would be a problem.

No, they're based of what was told straight from the horses mouth.

You're citing an in-game source, not the writers. And since the exact details never made it into the game, the writers would be able simply to change their minds.

This ambiguity might even have been intended to allow them the freedom to do something else going forward.

[azarhal]

 

An abolute directive should force them to look for better means instead of quick fixes, shouldn't it? After all, if it's so absolute that they fear AI invasions from other galaxies would jeopardize their plan, it should be so absolute that they fear that not having enough information would jeopardize the task they were entrusted with.

 

The Catalyst decided that the harvest/reaper creation was the best solution after studying all the data it had collected and made tests. It tells Shepard as much. We are long past the study phase of the directive. In fact, we are long past the implementation and automation phases too. Anything from another galaxy would have been taken into consideration billions of years ago when the Catalyst was looking for a solution.

[Drone223]

Ignore Drone. He can't wrap his head around the Leviathans. He thinks the Leviathans we encountered in the DLC are the same ones that made the Catalyst.

As usual you put words in peoples mouths, I never said that the leviathans encountered in the DLC were the ones who created the catalyst.

[Killroy]

As usual you put words in peoples mouths, I never said that the leviathans encountered in the DLC were the ones who created the catalyst.

 

You think those Leviathans know every single detail about the creation of the Catalyst and that they shared every single detail with Shepard.