76 réponses à ce sujet

[Fylimar]

I'm a bit surprised that the thread starter bashes Giselle for saying her opinion (and doing no harm with it), but puts Merrill on a podest among good people (and dogs), who is a blood mage, is the cause for the death of a lot of innocent people and becomes hostile when you even suggest, that blood magic could be dangerous. 

 

And I might not agree with Mother Giselle on a lot of things (my Dalish always discusses with her the exalted march at the Dales and always disagrees, which Giselle seems to be ok with), but I do think, that she is one of th most selfless characters in the DA universe. And if she has objections about persons - why not? Ser has objections about everything, Cassandra and Cullen have objections about anything mage related ... every character has objections at some point. And some of them are not that polite to express them, so why not Giselle?

[-leadintea-]

I'm a bit surprised that the thread starter bashes Giselle for saying her opinion (and doing no harm with it), but puts Merrill on a podest among good people (and dogs), who is a blood mage, is the cause for the death of a lot of innocent people and becomes hostile when you even suggest, that blood magic could be dangerous. 

 

And I might not agree with Mother Giselle on a lot of things (my Dalish always discusses with her the exalted march at the Dales and always disagrees, which Giselle seems to be ok with), but I do think, that she is one of th most selfless characters in the DA universe. And if she has objections about persons - why not? Ser has objections about everything, Cassandra and Cullen have objections about anything mage related ... every character has objections at some point. And some of them are not that polite to express them, so why not Giselle?

 

SImple, because a) she's a representative of the Chantry, and she dared to question Dorian's intention with the Inquisitor. With the former, a lot of people hate the Chantry, so by extension, they hate all the Mothers and clerics associated with it. With the latter, some people misunderstood why Mother Giselle had a problem with Dorian and thought it was because of homophobia, while other people got mad because she got hostile with the "woobie" of the group and took up arms against her. I mean, Mother Giselle is one of the kindest and most selfless people in the DA series, and yet people still have a problem with her just because of her position or because of a stance she took that was realistic in that situation, and even apologized to the person in question as well as played a hand in reuniting said person back with his father. Honestly, the amount of hate she gets really just baffles me, but this fanbase loves to hate characters for no good reason (pre-Inquisition Fiona who was hated because she was a "Mary-Sue" stands out as the most ridiculous one to me).

[nightscrawl]

And if she has objections about persons - why not? Ser has objections about everything, Cassandra and Cullen have objections about anything mage related ... every character has objections at some point. And some of them are not that polite to express them, so why not Giselle?

I'm going to assume this bit is about Dorian.

 

I like Dorian very much and he is my Inquisitor's LI. I don't necessarily object to her objections about Dorian, even though they aren't accurate, but rather the way that she handles them. She confronts Dorian in an accusatory manner instead of going to the Inquisitor, refers to "rumors" like they should be heeded regardless of their accuracy, and treats Dorian like s***.

 

I actually can logically understand where she's coming from -- so can Dorian! -- but she goes about it in a completely wrong way.

 

It's true that Dorian antagonizes her further in the scene, but that would be anyone's reaction when confronted with such accusations. And of course it doesn't really help that she is playing into Dorian's cynicism about people and society, and his insecurities regarding himself and whatever possible relationship he is (reluctantly) hoping might exist with the Inquisitor, including a (close) friendship.

[Illegitimus]

Treason.

 

So you'd execute an innocent woman on a trumped-up charge?  

[Qun00]

Ha ha, no.

[Fylimar]

SImple, because a) she's a representative of the Chantry, and she dared to question Dorian's intention with the Inquisitor. With the former, a lot of people hate the Chantry, so by extension, they hate all the Mothers and clerics associated with it. With the latter, some people misunderstood why Mother Giselle had a problem with Dorian and thought it was because of homophobia, while other people got mad because she got hostile with the "woobie" of the group and took up arms against her. I mean, Mother Giselle is one of the kindest and most selfless people in the DA series, and yet people still have a problem with her just because of her position or because of a stance she took that was realistic in that situation, and even apologized to the person in question as well as played a hand in reuniting said person back with his father. Honestly, the amount of hate she gets really just baffles me, but this fanbase loves to hate characters for no good reason (pre-Inquisition Fiona who was hated because she was a "Mary-Sue" stands out as the most ridiculous one to me).

 

I never understood that reaction. I'm not a religious person myself and I don't like religions very much, but that doesn't mean, that I don't like people who belief in some god or another (I only hate the once, trying to force their beliefs on you). Everyone to his/her tastes. And in DA the Chantry doesn't bother me that much, because you can decide, if your charcter is a believer or not. And some of the most interesting npcs were chantry folk like mOther Giselle. But you are probably right - chantry hate and Dorian lovers are probably  two very good reason for hating Giselle. Dorian is one of my favorites too, but I understand Giselles reaction. Dorian himself tells the inquisitor about how the Tevinter-Andrastians are viewed by the rest of the church. That Giselle jumps into those predjudices and being wrong makes her only more human in my eyes. I repeat that she has every right to voice her opinions - as much as everyone else at Skyhold. And at least, it's only one situation, Sera never leaves me alone about being elven or being too nice to some mage or being decent to some noble (to name one example - Sera is not that happy with my Dalish mage -loving inquisitor ).

[Fylimar]

I'm going to assume this bit is about Dorian.

 

I like Dorian very much and he is my Inquisitor's LI. I don't necessarily object to her objections about Dorian, even though they aren't accurate, but rather the way that she handles them. She confronts Dorian in an accusatory manner instead of going to the Inquisitor, refers to "rumors" like they should be heeded regardless of their accuracy, and treats Dorian like s***.

 

I actually can logically understand where she's coming from -- so can Dorian! -- but she goes about it in a completely wrong way.

 

It's true that Dorian antagonizes her further in the scene, but that would be anyone's reaction when confronted with such accusations. And of course it doesn't really help that she is playing into Dorian's cynicism about people and society, and his insecurities regarding himself and whatever possible relationship he is (reluctantly) hoping might exist with the Inquisitor, including a (close) friendship.

 

She is not right in that scene, but my point was, that someone presents bloodmage Merrill, who is responsible for a lot of death and pain, as a shining example of goodness and condemning Giselle for being unfair to a person. I completely agree with you that this could probably have been handled better on Giselles part, but that doesn't make her a bad person. I guess, here is no one, who has never been unfair to someone in one way or another, so calling Giselle a wolf in sheep pelt or a traitor as some did in this thread seems a bit harsh to me.

[nightscrawl]

Well I wasn't agreeing with anyone in particular. I don't hate Giselle, and neither does my Inquisitor, although he isn't too pleased with her after the Dorian encounter.

[Fionna&CakeFan]

I don't trust Giselle, or anyone else from/in Orlias, period. By far some of the most crafty, sly, and egocentric people in Thedas. I think, regardless of what she says, that in the end she is still a player of the game, and she is wearing a mask like everyone else. Maybe the mask she wears is generally nice, but the people of Orlais have MANY different faces, and I don't believe she is an exception. Look at Leliana, for example. She can be sweet and caring, but in an instant she can become cold, cruel, and arguably inhuman in her behavior. Sure the Inquisitor, and to some extent the HoF, have some control over where she ends up. But one does not simply stop a natural behavior. It is always there, even if it has been suppressed. She even puts on a mask, admittedly mind you, at the Winter Palace, with VERY little difficulty. It came completely natural to her to suddenly be a different person altogether. That is the essence of the game, and Giselle is a part of that world. Political intrigue, a lust for power/wealth/sex/etc, using false pretenses and acting in a manner that is agreeable to whomever you are speaking to, particularly when you wish to maintain their allegiance or support, while being outright vicious to those you deem lesser than yourself, or an enemy. These are common occurrences in the game. If we take the basic example of Giselle and her discussion with Dorian: She is outright accusatory, holding back no disdain for the man. Upon your intervention she suddenly changes stance, becoming more reasonable and "friendly." As it were, she never accuses you of willingly engaging in a relationship (romantic or not) with Dorian, she assumes immediately you are being played by him. You are the victim there. She only slams him for it, particularly because of his homeland. For someone that appears so kind, she clearly has a typical view when it comes to Tevinter, and even attempts to encourage you to cut ties with Dorian to save face. She says she disagrees with many of the Chantry's decisions, and that she wishes it were different. But in general, she still conforms to expectations, making excuses like "one battle at a time." Now, when the Chantry is on it's last footing, is the perfect time to decide how it is going to go forward in it's policy. Maybe she is genuinely kind person, with some realistic views and ideas that make her more "human," as it were. But that cannot be determined perfectly, because she is far more complex than that. Being "nice" most of the time, does not mean she is truly kind. After all, your adviser is most likely a very "nice" and even likable person, perhaps even your friend. That does not make them immune from being a vicious traitor, doing everything they can to dethrone you, even murder you, because they covet the power you have. When it comes down to intentions, being "nice" doesn't make you exempt from being ruthlessly cutthroat behind the scenes. A charismatic person is easily as dangerous a tyrant as a sociopathic monster. I don't mean to imply that Giselle is a terrorist or murderer, simply that she is just as infallible as all other humans/elves/dwarves/qunari. And that she is no less capable of being utterly ruthless, simply because she has an outward appearance that counters it.

[Qun00]

You know who is a wolf in sheep's clothes? Solas!

Well, apostate hobo clothes.

[Dean_the_Young]

On what charge?  

 

Being Catholic Chantry.

[Gervaise]

Actually there is a very valid reason for questioning why Giselle (and others) are so antagonistic to Dorian and this is his actions on first coming to the Inquisition.   If you take the mage path, he basically saves the Inquisitor's life, which is useful considering they are the only person who can close the breach.   You'd think they would cut him a bit of slack as a result.

 

However, it is even more telling if you take the Templar path.    I always do this after first visiting the mages in Redcliffe, so I have met Dorian and the reason for going to the Templars is that I don't trust him.    However, he still risks his life in order to come and warn us about Corypheus.   Then comes the bit that shows he has more compassion than your average noble (Tevinter or otherwise).   Even though he was on his knees on arrival, he immediately starts to help the wounded, which is how he comes to be looking after Rodderick.   He stands up to Cullen when the latter is suggesting pulling the mountain down not just on the enemy by the surviving people of Haven as well.  Then he continues to care for Rodderick, keeping him around long enough to lead the people to safety.

 

It is something that struck me as odd when we are reunited with our troops.   The Herald is not badly injured and just needs to rest.    Rodderick is dying.   He has already admitted his error in doubting the Herald before so there is no reason for people to shun him.   Yet Cullen, Josie, Leliana and Cassandra are too busy arguing and Giselle probably already planning her bit of "inspiration" to be bothered with ministering to a dying man.    Giselle in particular should be concerned that his passing should be as peaceful as possible and you'd think she would be there holding his hand and gently reciting the hopeful parts of the Chant to him.   Instead they all leave the poor man in the hands of Dorian (or Cole), someone who they later claim to not trust at all.    He stays with him and hears his dying words.     Despite all this the reaction of people is to spit on him (the Blacksmith), advise against trusting him (Cassandra) and to try and brow beat him into leaving the Inquisitor alone (Giselle).   I'm also inclined to agree with Dorian that her real reason for trying to reunite him with his family had nothing to do with compassion for them but was really her way of trying to get rid of him.

 

By contrast, Giselle never seems to object to you getting pally (or something more intimate) with Iron Bull, a confessed Qunari spy.   Wouldn't that be a cause for concern, even before the events of Trespasser?     So I do think it is very much a case of double standards on Giselle's part.  

[MiyuEmi]

I think I just kind of dismissed her concerns because I consider her a political figure and not just a political figure, but a religious political figure.  In my eyes that means she will be opposed to anything that will make her/her organisation look bad by extension through my influence and associations.  Because she has extended herself to you as a representative, she is clearly trying to make sure that the Chantry looks good and can back all of your decisions.  So she gets personally opinionated and feels that her support of you grants her a modicum of control over the actions and associations of the Inquisition.

 

So basically, as a person who is normally not very into religion I ignore her.  I think her opposition to Dorian is directly related to the fact that he's a mage from a land where mages rule.  The chantry remember is heavily involved in the circle of magi and Lily even loses her position and is sent to prison for, even unknowingly, helping a blood mage.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Actually there is a very valid reason for questioning why Giselle (and others) are so antagonistic to Dorian and this is his actions on first coming to the Inquisition.   If you take the mage path, he basically saves the Inquisitor's life, which is useful considering they are the only person who can close the breach.   You'd think they would cut him a bit of slack as a result.

 

However, it is even more telling if you take the Templar path.    I always do this after first visiting the mages in Redcliffe, so I have met Dorian and the reason for going to the Templars is that I don't trust him.    However, he still risks his life in order to come and warn us about Corypheus.   Then comes the bit that shows he has more compassion than your average noble (Tevinter or otherwise).   Even though he was on his knees on arrival, he immediately starts to help the wounded, which is how he comes to be looking after Rodderick.   He stands up to Cullen when the latter is suggesting pulling the mountain down not just on the enemy by the surviving people of Haven as well.  Then he continues to care for Rodderick, keeping him around long enough to lead the people to safety.

 

It is something that struck me as odd when we are reunited with our troops.   The Herald is not badly injured and just needs to rest.    Rodderick is dying.   He has already admitted his error in doubting the Herald before so there is no reason for people to shun him.   Yet Cullen, Josie, Leliana and Cassandra are too busy arguing and Giselle probably already planning her bit of "inspiration" to be bothered with ministering to a dying man.    Giselle in particular should be concerned that his passing should be as peaceful as possible and you'd think she would be there holding his hand and gently reciting the hopeful parts of the Chant to him.   Instead they all leave the poor man in the hands of Dorian (or Cole), someone who they later claim to not trust at all.    He stays with him and hears his dying words.     Despite all this the reaction of people is to spit on him (the Blacksmith), advise against trusting him (Cassandra) and to try and brow beat him into leaving the Inquisitor alone (Giselle).   I'm also inclined to agree with Dorian that her real reason for trying to reunite him with his family had nothing to do with compassion for them but was really her way of trying to get rid of him.

 

By contrast, Giselle never seems to object to you getting pally (or something more intimate) with Iron Bull, a confessed Qunari spy.   Wouldn't that be a cause for concern, even before the events of Trespasser?     So I do think it is very much a case of double standards on Giselle's part.  

It's not up for debate. If you choose the aggressive response when questioning why she told you this, she straight up tells you that yes, she hopes Dorian's family takes him away.

[nightscrawl]

^ I'll have to try that next time. I don't often take aggressive responses and have never tried that one.

 

 

As for Gervaise's comments above... well, while I do agree on the face of it, I think you are expecting too much from a minor plot point. I think Bioware used her as a tool to showcase Dorian's concerns, especially significant when it comes to the romance, which he explains as part of the amulet quest. In that quest he remarks about people thinking he is using you. And of course that has already borne out since we have already seen the proof of that with the previous Giselle scene.

 

It is all about politics. Chantry politics. And for a member of the Chantry, a Tevinter (a mage to boot), with their blasphemous ways -- they murdered Andraste! -- and male divine, getting chummy with the Inquisitor (the Herald of Andraste!), would be quite a threat indeed.

 

As for her apology that has been lauded in this thread, I don't see it as very genuine. She was caught out and embarrassed by the Herald of Andraste himself who makes it quite clear where he stands on the matter. I don't see that she has any other alternative in the scene. Sure, she could stand her ground and press the issue, or simply walk away without apologizing, but that wouldn't be a very politically sound move either.

 

I think Dorian's remark that "she meant well," is more generous than she deserves, and I wish I could say so.

 

I say this as someone whose canon Trevelyan Inquisitor is Andrastian. Like Dorian, he just doesn't have a great appreciation for the Chantry as an institution.

 

Don't forget, for all of Giselle's good qualities, the player's very first meeting with her shows that she is politically minded, even if she generally tries to use those politics as a force for good.

 

Now, none of this means that I "hate" her, or any other such thing. I don't like her very much in that particular scene, but I can see that she does have good qualities and cares about people in a general sense. I am quite capable of maintaining more than one thought and feeling regarding a specific person or character.

[CardButton]

LOL I think the fact that so many people have such extreme difference in opinions about the characters in DA:I proves that despite all of the flaws the game had, the characters themselves were certainly not one of them.  When the weakest of the Inner Circle on a purely writing level is Blackwall and Iron Bull (and they are by no means bad, just simpler ideas) than you've done an astounding job with characterization.  Especially given for most of the members it seems that with the fan base is split between either "loving them" or "hating them" and rarely "meh-ing them", with very few players having the same character "love" or "hate" lists.  Cory of course is the exception, but most of the problems with him stemmed from the storytelling. 

 

A good example is that I know a lot of people had a problem with Vivienne, yet despite playing a Dalish mage as my main, Vivienne remains easily one of my favorite companions in Dragon Age.  "She is a ****** and she knows it" as Sera so wonderfully put it, yet she does seem to genuinely care what happens to the mages and despite the harshness of her opinions, she isn't really wrong.  They are dangerous, unpredictable and irrational and despite their reasons they did choose the worst possible time in the world to rebel "when the world had been more afraid of magic since the days of Tevinter".  Plus, she is the first companion to tell your PC to their face that she is not joining as a selfless act, but rather a very blatant personal agenda ... awesome!

 

I had the opposite reaction for Fiona, especially in light of what she pulls in the epilogues if you do anything short of coddling and allying with the Rebel Mages.  I like her as a character, I'll admit she's well written, but I do treat her as one of the game's greatest villains ... even if I didn't want her to die due to choosing the Templars.  

 

...as for Giselle, my basing my entire playthrough on the first conversation you have with her back in Haven about the Inquisition should be a good indicator of my support of her. 

[nightscrawl]

...as for Giselle, my basing my entire playthrough on the first conversation you have with her back in Haven about the Inquisition should be a good indicator of my support of her. 

Do you know what impresses me most about the original Inquisition? They fought horrific battles, killed and died for their cause… and when it was time, they put their swords away. Perhaps the name was Divine Justinia’s message: That when the Inquisition is needed, it will strike without mercy. But when its work is done, it will put its sword away.

I do this too. These words had a profound influence on my Inquisitor and are in his mind when he chooses to disband the Inquisition.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Oh i thought that was Solas

[CardButton]

Yeah Giselle has some really good quotes.

[Witch Cocktor]

I don't really judge Giselle for being suspicious of Dorian's intentions. I would be too, knowing there's a Tevinter magister archdemon thingy threatening to destroy all.

BUT, the way she handled the situation was awful. Rumors, assumptions, stereotypes and emotions got the best of her and she acted without thinking. What she is basically saying to me with how she handled Dorian, was that she doesn't trust my decisions OR the inquisition when it comes to enlisting people to fight for a good cause, or to keep an eye on Dorian.

 

While I understand where she came from, she lost all my respect.

[Catilina]

I don't really judge Giselle for being suspicious of Dorian's intentions. I would be too, knowing there's a Tevinter magister archdemon thingy threatening to destroy all.

BUT, the way she handled the situation was awful. Rumors, assumptions, stereotypes and emotions got the best of her and she acted without thinking. What she is basically saying to me with how she handled Dorian, was that she doesn't trust my decisions OR the inquisition when it comes to enlisting people to fight for a good cause, or to keep an eye on Dorian.

 

While I understand where she came from, she lost all my respect.

In the political situations the „rumors” can be dangerous. Its shame, but true. The son of a powerful family from an enemy empire, can be dangerous, if he have influence in our country, order etc. You're right, but Mother Giselle could not do anything else.

 

An order, than only just awakening, be careful all the rumors!

 

(Yes, I was always in Dorian's side at this discuss, but always I understood mother Giselle's position.)

 

We must not forget: Who are Dorian!

[Witch Cocktor]

 

In the political situations the „rumors” can be dangerous. Its shame, but true. The son of a powerful family from an enemy empire, can be dangerous, if he have influence in our country, order etc. You'rr right, but Mother Giselle could not do anything else.

 

An order, than only just awakening, be careful all the rumors!

 

(Yes, I was always in Dorian's side at this discuss, but always I understood mother Giselle'sposition.)

 

Giselle most certainly could've done something else. There is no excuse for her to do what she did, first trying to use me as a tool for her schemes and then go to Dorian and scold him even though I made it quite clear that he is staying, and I trust him.

 

She had options, she chould've talked with me, she chould've recommended Leliana to watch over him and pry for details, she could've talk to Dorian in a productive manner (though to be fair, we only hear few bits of the conversation), but no, she essentially let's everything loose and disrespects Dorian, me and the whole inquisition by taking things into her hands that should be handled by people who actually mattered.

[Catilina]

Yes, i understand, she was not too sympathic in that situation... but I do not think big mistake to warn of danger someone, especially face to face.

Its a not evil thing, but not too sweet, thats true.

[abisha]

if i recall she do apologize for her behaver later in game about Dorian.

if only people in real life where mature enough like her not talking about only apologize but also not blind by their own arrogance.

[Catilina]

I never said: I liked her for it... My characters (all) was particularly hostile against her. 

 

To understand someone else's point of view or agree with someone's position or like/love someone – is not the same.