263 réponses à ce sujet

[DaemionMoadrin]

Are we arguing ME BS science here? Ok!

 

Lifting several adult sized humans with your biotics requires far more energy than you'd get from munching a protein bar. It becomes even more ridiculous when you take active biotic barriers into account, which can stop ME BS bullets.

 

Thus the only reasonable explanation would be that biotics do not generate those powers, they merely manipulate what's already present in the environment. That requires far less energy and handily explains how Shepard can throw biotics around all day long without breaking a sweat.

 

Kaidan only had headaches because he was using the L2 implant... Shep uses L3 and better.

[Laughing_Man]

If you need years of biotic training to still not achieve the effectiveness of a kid I taught to use a rifle or fly a drone in a week(who also won't become a dumpster baby due to in utero exposure to toxins at worst, or develp splitting migraines in a best case scenario), it isn't a very efficient time investment. I'd rather work on  something more practical lIke marksmanship, physical fitness, leadership skills/ tactical acumen, mechanical/technical ability or fieldcraft given the option.

 

Biotics clearly aren't very powerful in lore either apart from in extremely rare indviduals, seeing as the Rachni Wars and Krogan rebellions weren't immediately squelched by the billions of blue female Jedi running around just easily splattering all the bugs and battletoads. Hell, why does the whole galaxy bother fearing the geth at all when they are the only ones who can't even use these supposedly awesome abilities?

 

Kaidan finished his Biotic training when he was still a teenager, just in time to join the Alliance at the same age all the average grunts join.

Realistically, he probably went through the same training program as everyone else. Mastery comes later with experience.

 

Biotics were not a deciding factor in the Rachni war for two reasons:

A. The Rachni are biotics as well. B. They are insects, they can just swarm you with numbers.

 

The Geth is a different threat entirely, on a different scale and from a different direction, and while Biotics will probably be effective against geth platforms, and a biotic individual will have more options to defend himself, but you can hardly fight against a computer virus with telekinesis.

[Laughing_Man]

Are we arguing ME BS science here? Ok!

 

Lifting several adult sized humans with your biotics requires far more energy than you'd get from munching a protein bar. It becomes even more ridiculous when you take active biotic barriers into account, which can stop ME BS bullets.

 

Thus the only reasonable explanation would be that biotics do not generate those powers, they merely manipulate what's already present in the environment. That requires far less energy and handily explains how Shepard can throw biotics around all day long without breaking a sweat.

 

Kaidan only had headaches because he was using the L2 implant... Shep uses L3 and better.

 

I don't think that there was ever meant to be a straight correlation between eating energy bars and the energy it takes to stop a hail of bullets.

 

It's just that the concentration and effort required to use biotics are merely generally draining, and therefore require a larger intake of calories.

[Cyonan]

Biotics in Mass Effect also let you:

 

> Drain the health of enemies(Reave)

> Mind control them(Dominate)

> Freeze enemies and make them immune to damage(Stasis)

> Burn enemies and drain their shields(Annihilation Field)

> Automatically transfer itself to another target once the current one is dead(Dark Channel)

 

All of this happens with mass effect fields, which do nothing but increase or decrease mass according to the codex.

[Catastrophy]

 

 

I detest screen shakes and blurry effects. Why should my screen shake each and every time someone uses a power next to me? Am I not able to compensate for that, not even after years of combat?

 

 

It's not really *screenshake* when your character witnesses the bosom of the Asari Justicar heave under strenuous biotic effort.

[mickey111]

no  they shouldnt.

 

we're at least 10 years too late for the realistic expectation that RPG games will have some kind of realism inserted into them. I would like for biotic users to have some sort of fatigue/cooling off intervals where biotic powers are less good, but that goes against the modern expectation of the character and friends being gods among plebs. 

[Quarian Master Race]

Biotics in Mass Effect also let you:

 

> Drain the health of enemies(Reave)

> Mind control them(Dominate)

> Freeze enemies and make them immune to damage(Stasis)

> Burn enemies and drain their shields(Annihilation Field)

> Automatically transfer itself to another target once the current one is dead(Dark Channel)

 

All of this happens with mass effect fields, which do nothing but increase or decrease mass according to the codex.

Space Magic

 

Then again my Quarian fire and ice mage's  Engineer's spells tech attacks can freeze living people solid using meaningless technobabble "supercooled subatomic particles", but without making them die of hypothermia, so I'm hardly better.

[Catastrophy]

Space Magic

 

Then again my Quarian fire and ice mage's  Engineer's spells tech attacks can freeze living people solid using meaningless technobabble "supercooled subatomic particles", but without making them die of hypothermia, so I'm hardly better.

Check your sci-fi database. I'm pretty sure "hibernation" (no that's not a country) might be there.

[Ahriman]

Personally I'd trade powerful biotics for energy limitations. Something like heavy weapons in ME2, only for biotics. They could even come up with some wonky explanation for recharge option, like direct calories injection.

Opening Grunts tank and watching a teenaged Krogan drive Shep flying across the room and pin him to a wall with one arm.


Then watching Shep beat up a fully grown Yagh with his bare knuckles no sweat.

Easily explainable. Shep was caught by surprise. The other thing is that you can't kill a krogan with one shot in chest, so he wouldn't be afraid of that gun.

[zeypher]

If you want them to be OP lets add the codex restriction of running out of juice due to using their abilities a few times and then having to intake more calories.

 

Biotics are already overpowered since you can literally spam them.

[ZipZap2000]

Personally I'd trade powerful biotics for energy limitations. Something like heavy weapons in ME2, only for biotics. They could even come up with some wonky explanation for recharge option, like direct calories injection.
Easily explainable. Shep was caught by surprise. The other thing is that you can't kill a krogan with one shot in chest, so he wouldn't be afraid of that gun.

Good old surprise.

Makes Humans forget they're supermen and Krogan forget they're invincible.

[Vortex13]

Granted, Biotic users are as powerful as the lore makes them out to be but the rest of the galaxy has access to things called dampening fields. 

 

Go ahead Jack, try and be a biotic badass, they'll just hit you with a dampening field charge, shutting down your implants and turn you into a regular mortal, and then just walk up with a gun and shoot you in the face. 

 

 

There is a reason why even natural biotics don't rely entirely on their use for combat. The Rachni don't seem to have need for L2 or L3 implants, but they don't solely focus on throwing warp around; they have natural protection, armor and barrier piercing claws and acidic spit to fall back to.

[Statichands]

If you want them to be OP lets add the codex restriction of running out of juice due to using their abilities a few times and then having to intake more calories.

 

I like that idea, it reminds me of skyrim. Pure destruction mages in Skyrim have a terrible time when their mana runs out.

[The Hierophant]

Being able to lift, and throw containers at people like what Vader did to Luke, would be nice.

[Cyonan]

I like that idea, it reminds me of skyrim. Pure destruction mages in Skyrim have a terrible time

 

You could have just stopped there and it would still be accurate =P

[Statichands]

You could have just stopped there and it would still be accurate =P

 

I forgot to add "when they have no mana"

[Cyonan]

I forgot to add "when they have no mana"

 

You didn't, I was just saying you could have left it out and it would still have been accurate.

 

Cause destruction magic in Skryim is really weak in general =P

[capn233]

Strange that balance is a controversial topic.  Classes, powers and weapons need balance so that there are compelling alternatives rather than one or two setups that vastly superior to anything else.

 

Additionally, the player character needs to be balanced enough relative to enemies that the game is not trivialized on the higher difficulty settings.  This is a problem with mid-late game leveled Shepard particularly in ME1 and 3, and to an extent in ME2 (although in that game special upgrades are at least as important as level and gear).  Having multiple difficulty settings is a good idea.  Allowing the player to become so powerful you can't hardly tell the difference between them is not.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Strange that balance is a controversial topic.  Classes, powers and weapons need balance so that there are compelling alternatives rather than one or two setups that vastly superior to anything else.

 

Additionally, the player character needs to be balanced enough relative to enemies that the game is not trivialized on the higher difficulty settings.  This is a problem with mid-late game leveled Shepard particularly in ME1 and 3, and to an extent in ME2 (although in that game special upgrades are at least as important as level and gear).  Having multiple difficulty settings is a good idea.  Allowing the player to become so powerful you can't hardly tell the difference between them is not.

 

I don't think Shepard should count. They were at least 30% cyborg by ME2, with the latest cutting edge technology some tech savant came up with after you acquired the schemata from secret labs. If you look at the scans and upgrades, Shep is basically Wolverine Light, with tons of biotic and tech powers. Even the biotic implant is at least a generation better than what everyone else uses (L5x/n, if I'm not mistaken), while Jack is using a special version of the L3, which Shepard used in ME1.

 

It's totally believable that Shep can knock down the Shadow Broker with bare hands, what's ridiculous is that loudmouth James Vega can hold his own. Tiny FemShep could kill him if she threw a fullpower punch. (Just like Summer Glau as Terminator.)

 

So yeah, Shepard is definitely not a standard biotic.

 

If we look at what NPCs showed us during gameplay, then biotics are fairly powerful and there isn't all that much strain, it's more a concentration issue. Samara/Jack kept up the biotic bubble in ME2 for quite a while, during combat and suffering a constant onslaught of swarmers. Once they were done with that, they were fine after a short moment to catch their breath.

On Thessia, a single Asari soldier kept a biotic barrier up for minutes while Reapers hammered on it. She didn't collapse and needed to eat after she was done.

Our darling psycho Liara killed her assistant in her office and only had this to say about her former employee: "She needs to work on her barriers." Fight to the death, but not breaking a sweat. And Liara is basically young and inexperienced compared to the standard Asari*.

 

I don't know, have we ever seen an exhausted biotic in the games?

 

Of course, ME science is space magic. It's fantasy and not internally consistent. Whatever the writers say goes, even if it contradicts everything that came before.

 

From a balance point of view... I don't mind being a special overpowered snowflake in single player. A full biotic team (Liara, Javik, Shepard) in ME3 was unstoppable, everything died before I could use my gun. I don't think people seriously complained about that then, so why do it now?

 

Multiplayer is a completely different issue and there it's okay to play as nonames. (Although we do know who the N7s, the GI, the Cabal and the Vorcha are).

Just an everyday grunt who only has 3 powers and usually can't afford to carry more than 2 weapons.

 

 

*Btw... Asari biology is BS. All Asari are biotic because the Protheans changed their genome and then dropped tons of Eezo on Thessia, so all Asari are exposed to it. That's all fine and okay... until they went to the stars and settled dozens of planets and lived on space stations and ships. They are still all biotics, with no exception. Even without Eezo exposure. Asari. Space elves, more likely.

[RoboticWater]

I don't think BioWare knew what they were signing up for when they created a sci-fi analog to magic. BioWare has yet to create an implementation that agrees with both the lore and the narrative.

 

If it wouldn't significantly neuter the gameplay, I would suggest per-mission restrictions on Biotic powers to emulate fatigue (of course, going open-ish world would probably necessitate a per-encounter restriction to be even viable). An analogue to mana could make sense, but that's not really interesting. Regardless, there's really no easy way to make Biotics seem lore consistent without drastically altering their mechanics. I'm all up for that (I think powers should try to be a lot more interesting than extra damage/protection every so many seconds), but somehow I doubt BIoWare wants to reinvent the wheel here.

 

As it is, though, Vanguard is basically just an unstoppable teleporting ball of damage. I don't know if it was ever nerfed, but any time I played human Vanguard in MP, I got the highest score by a country mile.

[Cyonan]

I don't think BioWare knew what they were signing up for when they created a sci-fi analog to magic. BioWare has yet to create an implementation that agrees with both the lore and the narrative.

 

If it wouldn't significantly neuter the gameplay, I would suggest per-mission restrictions on Biotic powers to emulate fatigue (of course, going open-ish world would probably necessitate a per-encounter restriction to be even viable). An analogue to mana could make sense, but that's not really interesting. Regardless, there's really no easy way to make Biotics seem lore consistent without drastically altering their mechanics. I'm all up for that (I think powers should try to be a lot more interesting than extra damage/protection every so many seconds), but somehow I doubt BIoWare wants to reinvent the wheel here.

 

As it is, though, Vanguard is basically just an unstoppable teleporting ball of damage. I don't know if it was ever nerfed, but any time I played human Vanguard in MP, I got the highest score by a country mile.

 

At this point I don't think they can make biotics follow lore without changing the lore or greatly restricting biotics, but personally I'm all for it continuing to break lore if it means getting fun abilities to use.

 

I know we play these games for the story, but I'm still of the opinion that gameplay mechanics need to be enjoyable first and foremost over strictly following the lore.

 

Though as much of the ME3 MP boards will tell you, top scoring in pugs isn't really an indicator that the kit is strong. Vanguards were strong characters overall, but the general opinion is that the unstoppable balls of damage were typically Infiltrators. Especially the Geth Infiltrator once you could play around it being incredibly easy to die.

[goishen]

I don't think BioWare knew what they were signing up for when they created a sci-fi analog to magic. BioWare has yet to create an implementation that agrees with both the lore and the narrative.

 

If it wouldn't significantly neuter the gameplay, I would suggest per-mission restrictions on Biotic powers to emulate fatigue (of course, going open-ish world would probably necessitate a per-encounter restriction to be even viable). An analogue to mana could make sense, but that's not really interesting. Regardless, there's really no easy way to make Biotics seem lore consistent without drastically altering their mechanics. I'm all up for that (I think powers should try to be a lot more interesting than extra damage/protection every so many seconds), but somehow I doubt BIoWare wants to reinvent the wheel here.

 

As it is, though, Vanguard is basically just an unstoppable teleporting ball of damage. I don't know if it was ever nerfed, but any time I played human Vanguard in MP, I got the highest score by a country mile.

 

 

I don't think it is that though.  I think it's us that is doing that.  Molding it into a very specific viewpoint (and a narrow one at that).

[Han Shot First]

 

*Btw... Asari biology is BS. All Asari are biotic because the Protheans changed their genome and then dropped tons of Eezo on Thessia, so all Asari are exposed to it. That's all fine and okay... until they went to the stars and settled dozens of planets and lived on space stations and ships. They are still all biotics, with no exception. Even without Eezo exposure. Asari. Space elves, more likely.

 

It is never said in the games that the Protheans made the Asari biotics. Javik only says that the Protheans taught the primitive Asari mathematics and defended the planet from both an asteroid strike and invasion. He never says that the Protheans genetically engineered them.

 

The Protheans being responsible for Asari biotics is rather unlikely actually, considering that Thessia is the most eezo-rich of known planets in the galaxy and that most forms of animal life on the planet also are biotics. It is far more likely that the Asari evolved biotic ability naturally from evolving in an environment permeating with dust-form eezo.

 

It would also be impossible for the Protheans to have seeded Thessia with eezo. Had the Protheans seeded the planet with eezo (the only means of doing this would be slamming asteroids into it), it would have surely wiped out the Asari and most forms of life. 50,000 years also isn't enough time for life to recover and birth a space-faring civilization into existence.

[Laughing_Man]

If it wouldn't significantly neuter the gameplay, I would suggest per-mission restrictions on Biotic powers to emulate fatigue (of course, going open-ish world would probably necessitate a per-encounter restriction to be even viable). An analogue to mana could make sense, but that's not really interesting.

 

You rarely see these days RPGs that use the "per encounter" or "per rest" system for magic, and good riddance.

That system makes no sense.

 

How is artificially limiting an adept to use one singularity two lifts and three throws - more "interesting" than a stamina pool?

Logically, if there is a fatigue limit, it should be on overall amount of effort used.

 

D&D did some things right, but Vancian magic was not one of them.

[RoboticWater]

At this point I don't think they can make biotics follow lore without changing the lore or greatly restricting biotics, but personally I'm all for it continuing to break lore if it means getting fun abilities to use.

 

I know we play these games for the story, but I'm still of the opinion that gameplay mechanics need to be enjoyable first and foremost over strictly following the lore.

 

Though as much of the ME3 MP boards will tell you, top scoring in pugs isn't really an indicator that the kit is strong. Vanguards were strong characters overall, but the general opinion is that the unstoppable balls of damage were typically Infiltrators. Especially the Geth Infiltrator once you could play around it being incredibly easy to die.

I've never once cared about lore consistency with Biotics. Gameplay will always supersede lore in my mind (hence my positive view on thermal clips and equip weight affecting cooldown), so as long as it's fun I'm not about to fuss. However, restrictions do often breed interesting results, and I have to wonder if conforming to a stricter interpretation of the lore would yield an equally fun, yet more tactical experience. For instance, if Biotics were less about causing damage directly with magic explosions and more about manipulating the environment with more subtle attacks.

 

I'm more than happy with the direction BioWare have taken the combat, so everything I'm saying is for the purpose of hypothetical discussion.

 

You rarely see these days RPGs that use the "per encounter" or "per rest" system for magic, and good riddance.

That system makes no sense.

 

How is artificially limiting an adept to use one singularity two lifts and three throws - more "interesting" than a stamina pool?

Logically, if there is a fatigue limit, it should be on overall amount of effort used.

 

D&D did some things right, but Vancian magic was not one of them.

I didn't mean to imply that per-rest was a more interesting mechanic, but that the concept of mana is a very common trope in games these days. It might make sense, but BioWare wouldn't be doing anything particularly original or distinctive. That's not to say that their implementation of Biotics needs to be either of those things, but if BioWare were to re-tool the system, I'd probably prefer something new.

 

The only reason I even mention per-rest at all is because it more accurately depicts fatigue than the current system (albeit slightly) and eliminates power spam. Playing through Pillars of Eternity, I can appreciate how the hard limit forces me to use powers very deliberately. Of course, I do find the system a bit too restrictive, which is why I restarted the game as a Cipher.