263 réponses à ce sujet

[Dantriges]

Fragile arcane casters is a relic from D&Ds roots in wargaming where mages were fantasy artillery. In early D&D characters were a lot more replaceable, because you were expected to bring lots of henchmen, had several characters and char creation was rather fast.

 

Player skill always mattered, if it´s aiming now in video games or memorizing the monster manual, know when to apply limited resources.and knowing how your dungeon master ticks.

 

Making biotics especially fragile at low levels doesn´t really work. It´s mindless copying something froma game that copied that mechanic, copied itself over several editions and got copied by other games for a long time. And videogames are shorter. There´s a difference between meeting once a week or twice a month playing for several hours and a videogame with a playtime of hm 40-60 hours or less, which could be done in a couple weeks or so, if you have some days off.. Depending on how completionist you are you´ll be at max level for quite some time.

 

You also have the save-reload option unless the dev designs it with ironman only but well please, bugs are a thing.

[DaemionMoadrin]

 No they should not. The lore makes it clear that biotics are not OP: the user gets exhausted from over-use.

 

Would you please point out where it says that? I can't find it. Btw... use and over-use are two different things.

[Iakus]

Would you please point out where it says that? I can't find it. Btw... use and over-use are two different things.

 

From the codex:

 

Biotics: Life as a Biotic 

Biotics possess extraordinary abilities, but they must live with minor inconveniences. The most obvious issue is getting adequate nutrition. Creating biotic mass effects takes such a toll on metabolism that active biotics develop ravenous appetites. The standard Alliance combat ration for a soldier is 3000 calories per day; biotics are given 4500, as well as a canteen of potent energy drink for quick refreshment after hard combat.

 

Another issue is electric charge. Electricity accumulated in starship drive cores must be discharged, and so must the electricity in a biotic user. Biotics are prone to small static discharges when they touch metal.

 

Unfortunately, human biotics also face suspicion and persecution, beginning with the popular misconception that they can read and control minds. Biotics symbolize the dehumanization of mankind to people philosophically or religiously opposed to gene modification and cybernetics. Militaries are the only organizations that always welcome biotics, offering them huge recruitment incentives

[themikefest]

An exhaustion mechanic would be an interesting addition to the game.

That should be added for running. It was funny that Shepard could forever run in ME3 without stopping or slowing down.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The point of "playing perfect" is that the survivability should not be purely in the hands of the dice. The dice should allow for bad things to happen which can be eased by playing well, other than really odd things like rolling a 1 10 times in a row.

Player skill should always matter, otherwise there is no point in even playing the system and you might as well just roll a d20 at the start to see if you die or if you win. Even in a game like D&D it allows for player skill, despite some annoyances like casters being able to be killed by a single unlucky roll at level 1.

I would go as far as to argue that a system which is 100% random is not actually a game, as it cannot be played.

I've written extensively on this topic, arguing that RPGs are not games, partly by virtue of them having no winning conditions.

You can't win a roleplaying game; you can merely play it.

It might have been in every game, but with weapons like the Typhoon or even Avenger it's pretty clear what they were designing the game around.

I don't even know what those are, so disinterested am I in the shooter aspect of Mass Effect.

[Sylvius the Mad]

From the codex:

Biotics: Life as a Biotic
Biotics possess extraordinary abilities, but they must live with minor inconveniences. The most obvious issue is getting adequate nutrition. Creating biotic mass effects takes such a toll on metabolism that active biotics develop ravenous appetites. The standard Alliance combat ration for a soldier is 3000 calories per day; biotics are given 4500, as well as a canteen of potent energy drink for quick refreshment after hard combat.

Another issue is electric charge. Electricity accumulated in starship drive cores must be discharged, and so must the electricity in a biotic user. Biotics are prone to small static discharges when they touch metal.

Unfortunately, human biotics also face suspicion and persecution, beginning with the popular misconception that they can read and control minds. Biotics symbolize the dehumanization of mankind to people philosophically or religiously opposed to gene modification and cybernetics. Militaries are the only organizations that always welcome biotics, offering them huge recruitment incentives

All of this should have existed as part of the gameplay.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Magic worked this way in Baldur's Gate. The Fireball and Cloudkill spells were absolutely devastating, but that devastation applied to both your enemies and any allies caught in the blast.

My ideas would be:

1) Self-damage when using biotic powers, reflecting the physical strain of using them.
2) Some sort of exhaustion effect after using them, like you can't sprint, you take increased damage, your screen blurs so it's harder to aim, etc.
3) AoE friendly fire, as Sylvius suggested.

 

For exhaustion, what about a mana-type meter? Call it "Fatigue" or something, but the bigger the power, the more fatigue is required to manage it, and as fatigue mounts, power damage drops, weapon accuracy drops, mobility decreases, and damage taken from enemy attacks increases.

 

Tech/combat powers by comparison would be a much smaller drain on a similar meter. They'd be weaker on the whole, but they'd be less risky and could be used at less cost to the user.

[Sylvius the Mad]

For exhaustion, what about a mana-type meter? Call it "Fatigue" or something, but the bigger the power, the more fatigue is required to manage it, and as fatigue mounts, power damage drops, weapon accuracy drops, mobility decreases, and damage taken from enemy attacks increases.

Tech/combat powers by comparison would be a much smaller drain on a similar meter. They'd be weaker on the whole, but they'd be less risky and could be used at less cost to the user.

This would also eliminate the need for cooldowns.

[Beerfish]

But they also require the drawbacks of biotics as well, some faulty implants see kaiden. addiction to chemical enhacemetns, etc etc

[RoboticWater]

I've written extensively on this topic, arguing that RPGs are not games, partly by virtue of them having no winning conditions.

You can't win a roleplaying game; you can merely play it.

I don't see what that has to do with randomness or player skill. RPWhatevers still require player skill regardless of whether or not there's a winning condition. Presumably the player and his or her character has a motivation, so the player, using their skill, will attempt to advance with that motivation and/or towards some goal. The session doesn't need to end when that goal is reached, but that doesn't mean there isn't a goal.

 

My 9 year old self could not play any RPG nearly as effectively as I can now because my 9 year old self does not have my current (much greater) skill and knowledge. 
 
It should come as no surprise to you that RPG are more than just the dice rolls.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't see what that has to do with randomness or player skill. RPWhatevers still require player skill regardless of whether or not there's a winning condition. Presumably the player and his or her character has a motivation, so the player, using their skill, will attempt to advance with that motivation and/or towards some goal.

The player's motivations is the roleplay the character effectively.

The character's motivation is relevant only to whether the character succeeds, not the player. If my character makes a bad decision and gets himself killed, it's the character who has failed - not me.

It should come as no surprise to you that RPG are more than just the dice rolls.

An RPG is roleplayinging. The dice are there to resolve outcomes which are beyond the character's direct control.

[Quarian Master Race]

Discussing tabletop RPG mechanics and typical fantasy RPG roles is all good and well, but I'm not sure it has any relevance to Mass Effect, as it's pretty hard to deny it is more of a modified TPS. Almost half of all players chose Soldier in SP, and the most popular MP kits were by far soldiers or gun platform infiltrators. Bioware isn't going to fundamentally redesign the combat in favour of less popular playstyles with those stats. Even adepts and engineers do the vast majority of damage with guns when played effectively at min/max. 

[Ahglock]

From the codex:

Biotics: Life as a Biotic
Biotics possess extraordinary abilities, but they must live with minor inconveniences. The most obvious issue is getting adequate nutrition. Creating biotic mass effects takes such a toll on metabolism that active biotics develop ravenous appetites. The standard Alliance combat ration for a soldier is 3000 calories per day; biotics are given 4500, as well as a canteen of potent energy drink for quick refreshment after hard combat.

Another issue is electric charge. Electricity accumulated in starship drive cores must be discharged, and so must the electricity in a biotic user. Biotics are prone to small static discharges when they touch metal.

Unfortunately, human biotics also face suspicion and persecution, beginning with the popular misconception that they can read and control minds. Biotics symbolize the dehumanization of mankind to people philosophically or religiously opposed to gene modification and cybernetics. Militaries are the only organizations that always welcome biotics, offering them huge recruitment incentives

Yeah but that doesn't imply exhaustion after a little use. Now I remember it being phrased that way earlier but maybe my memory is faulty or they changed the codex to be closer to game play. Currently tossing biotics left and right fits the codex they just eat like a Olympic athlete, actually less than many of them.

[Iakus]

Yeah but that doesn't imply exhaustion after a little use. Now I remember it being phrased that way earlier but maybe my memory is faulty or they changed the codex to be closer to game play. Currently tossing biotics left and right fits the codex they just eat like a Olympic athlete, actually less than many of them.

Ever try to do strenuous work while really really hungry?

[RoboticWater]

The player's motivations is the roleplay the character effectively.

The character's motivation is relevant only to whether the character succeeds, not the player. If my character makes a bad decision and gets himself killed, it's the character who has failed - not me.
An RPG is roleplayinging. The dice are there to resolve outcomes which are beyond the character's direct control.

Yes, and if I were to roleplay a quick-thinking space marine who is attempting to get out of a bind, I don't just tell the DM "I get out of this bind!" and roll the die; I tell the DM "I shoot at the window and try to escape," or "I throw a flash grenade and escape through the door behind me." Both are equally viable and equally dangerous in terms of my character's motivations and abilities, so the decision is left up to me and my skill (or whatever metric by which I make decisions), not the character and his preferences. In instances where the correct course of action is more obvious, skill might still be needed to get into the mindset of your character. For instance, my space marine wouldn't have even considered the window if I, the player, were too inexperienced to think of it. 
 
Even that's using the strictest interpretation of tabletop roleplaying. I'm sure many players bear the ultimate goal of beating the DM's campaign in mind, and thus make skillful decisions to help their team mates and themselves in order to win.
 
The necessity of skill is usually even greater in videogame RPG where it's generally required to min/max and combo abilities with companions in such a way that is supernatural. It's almost inevitable that players will need to forsake a small aspect of their character in order to successfully beat certain encounters (like comboing a power with a companion they abhor). Whether you like it or not, the vast majority of players prefer it when their games are winnable and are willing to step out of character for a few moments to continue the story, thus designers make their games off of that assumption.
 
Ultimately, it doesn't really matter. Mass Effect is a game built upon the notion that player skill is required. Insinuating that ME2-3 are failures for not doing otherwise seems pointless.
 

For exhaustion, what about a mana-type meter? Call it "Fatigue" or something, but the bigger the power, the more fatigue is required to manage it, and as fatigue mounts, power damage drops, weapon accuracy drops, mobility decreases, and damage taken from enemy attacks increases.
 
Tech/combat powers by comparison would be a much smaller drain on a similar meter. They'd be weaker on the whole, but they'd be less risky and could be used at less cost to the user.

I like the concept of fatigue, but how well would this work with the Vanguard class? There's already heavy risk involved in the Vanguard's core combat loop, teleporting into the middle of enemies, so heaping on more negatives doesn't strike me as beneficial. It seems especially harsh considering the other biotic classes don't need to be nearly as mobile. I guess we could just give the Vanguard a higher fatigue threshold/regeneration, but that's still something to consider.

[Ahglock]

Ever try to do strenuous work while really really hungry?

Yes and it's hard. But this isn't strenuous work while hungry. It's strenuous work makes you hungry and biotics is strenuous work. But that doesn't mean it's so strenuous you can do it twice and are wiped out. Digging ditches is strenuous and I burn a crap ton of calories doing it. But I can still do it for hours. Or at least could I'm old and sedentary now. Or high intensity excercise, I'd hate to do that hungry but I can still keep going for 40 minutes to a hour straight. Is an hour of blasting meaningful limitation to bother programming? If it takes more than an hour of combat to get through a level your biotics start failing?

[DaemionMoadrin]

From the codex:

 

Biotics: Life as a Biotic 

Biotics possess extraordinary abilities, but they must live with minor inconveniences. The most obvious issue is getting adequate nutrition. Creating biotic mass effects takes such a toll on metabolism that active biotics develop ravenous appetites. The standard Alliance combat ration for a soldier is 3000 calories per day; biotics are given 4500, as well as a canteen of potent energy drink for quick refreshment after hard combat.

 

Another issue is electric charge. Electricity accumulated in starship drive cores must be discharged, and so must the electricity in a biotic user. Biotics are prone to small static discharges when they touch metal.

 

Unfortunately, human biotics also face suspicion and persecution, beginning with the popular misconception that they can read and control minds. Biotics symbolize the dehumanization of mankind to people philosophically or religiously opposed to gene modification and cybernetics. Militaries are the only organizations that always welcome biotics, offering them huge recruitment incentives

 

It doesn't say anything about exhaustion, not even from over-use.

 

Nutrition is not something that goes away quickly... if you make sure you are sated before you go on a mission, it would take 4-5 hours until you get hungry again. Less if you bring some protein bars and eat them during breaks.

 

I don't know about you but I often work while hungry. It doesn't affect my performance much and I don't break down from exhaustion either.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

I like the concept of fatigue, but how well would this work with the Vanguard class? There's already heavy risk involved in the Vanguard's core combat loop, teleporting into the middle of enemies, so heaping on more negatives doesn't strike me as beneficial. It seems especially harsh considering the other biotic classes don't need to be nearly as mobile. I guess we could just give the Vanguard a higher fatigue threshold/regeneration, but that's still something to consider.

That could definitely work. Vanguards are supposed to be among the most physically conditioned of all classes, if not the most conditioned. Charge could also not affect fatigue very much, or using charge could accelerate regeneration of fatigue so that after a brief waiting period, it can be used again without being much of a drain.

[Wulfram]

It doesn't say anything about exhaustion, not even from over-use.
 
Nutrition is not something that goes away quickly... if you make sure you are sated before you go on a mission, it would take 4-5 hours until you get hungry again. Less if you bring some protein bars and eat them during breaks.
 
I don't know about you but I often work while hungry. It doesn't affect my performance much and I don't break down from exhaustion either.

If they burn through their glycogen reserves like a marathon runner or a cyclist and "hit the wall" that seems like it could pretty severely mess up their combat performance.

[Ahglock]

If they burn through their glycogen reserves like a marathon runner or a cyclist and "hit the wall" that seems like it could pretty severely mess up their combat performance.

Sure. But would that happen in a gameplay relevant time fame? I can't think of a single mission that was of a marathon length.

[TheBunz]

They are OP

Learn 2 Play

[DaemionMoadrin]

If they burn through their glycogen reserves like a marathon runner or a cyclist and "hit the wall" that seems like it could pretty severely mess up their combat performance.

 

The fastest marathon still took over 2 hours. If you had to fight for 2 hours nonstop, you'd need a break even as a normal soldier without biotics.

 

I really don't think we should stretch "biotics need more calories in their diet" to "biotics can only perform for a brief time and then they collapse in exhaustion and need to feed".

There are plenty of professions who have a higher calory intake than the average office worker. None of them are treated like they'd break down if they don't get a meal in time.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Yes, and if I were to roleplay a quick-thinking space marine who is attempting to get out of a bind, I don't just tell the DM "I get out of this bind!" and roll the die; I tell the DM "I shoot at the window and try to escape," or "I throw a flash grenade and escape through the door behind me." Both are equally viable and equally dangerous in terms of my character's motivations and abilities, so the decision is left up to me and my skill (or whatever metric by which I make decisions), not the character and his preferences. In instances where the correct course of action is more obvious, skill might still be needed to get into the mindset of your character. For instance, my space marine wouldn't have even considered the window if I, the player, were too inexperienced to think of it.

That's not, in my experience, how that would work.  If it did, no one would ever be able to play a character more intelligent than himself.

 

No, the player should ask the GM to describe the room in detail, and the GM should tailor that description to the character.  A smart character would notice the window.  A smarter character would notice that the window was locked, and instead see the lightswitch he could use to let him escape under cover of darkness.

Even that's using the strictest interpretation of tabletop roleplaying. I'm sure many players bear the ultimate goal of beating the DM's campaign in mind, and thus make skillful decisions to help their team mates and themselves in order to win.

I think viewing the GM as the adversary is the wrong way to do it.  He's playing, for fun, just like you are.  Outwitting him, thereby blowing up the campaign he spent weeks creating, isn't going to be fun for him.

The necessity of skill is usually even greater in videogame RPG where it's generally required to min/max and combo abilities with companions in such a way that is supernatural. It's almost inevitable that players will need to forsake a small aspect of their character in order to successfully beat certain encounters (like comboing a power with a companion they abhor).

Is it?  Does it occur in ME3?  I'm pretty sure it doesn't, given that I don't even know how to do that, and ME3 offered zero challenge.

Whether you like it or not, the vast majority of players prefer it when their games are winnable and are willing to step out of character for a few moments to continue the story, thus designers make their games off of that assumption.

Roleplaying games don't have winning conditions.  There's no such thing as winning.

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter. Mass Effect is a game built upon the notion that player skill is required. Insinuating that ME2-3 are failures for not doing otherwise seems pointless.

ME2-3 did do otherwise.  Mass Effect requires no player skill.  I've praised the ME combat system many times.  It was a revolutionary implementation of traditional CRPG gameplay through a shooter interface.

 

They would be failures if they hadn't, but they did.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The fastest marathon still took over 2 hours. If you had to fight for 2 hours nonstop, you'd need a break even as a normal soldier without biotics.

 

I really don't think we should stretch "biotics need more calories in their diet" to "biotics can only perform for a brief time and then they collapse in exhaustion and need to feed".

There are plenty of professions who have a higher calory intake than the average office worker. None of them are treated like they'd break down if they don't get a meal in time.

A 50% increase in caloric intake isn't that much.  Just maintaining body temperature in the arctic takes 6000 calories/day.

[Lyrandori]

Problem is my protagonist will still be unable to intervene during a cut-scene, which will inevitably not make any sense if he/she disposes of 'x', 'y' and 'z' biotic powers.

 

And I'm not exactly blaiming BioWare entirely on that. How can they create a cinematic approach to their story telling and keep a good, plausible approach to the actual class you're playing as, at the same time? There's limits, however. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the likes of being a first class biotic ass-kicker and simply staying there idling while looking at something really bad happening (yeah, such as that Thane fight scene in ME3, had my Shepard been biotic, imagine how fast she'd have biotic-thrown that ******* away in a matter of a sec- oh wait... she was a bioctic).

 

I can't for the life of me find a good middle ground, other than having BioWare just straight up creating class-specific cut scenes to tell the same story for everyone. And something like that would definitely take... oh I don't know... eternity to make? But anyway, being "OP" as a biotic as far as story telling (on-screen) goes it would be either stupid to watch (or would at the very least turn the game in a new Dragon Ball Z saga) or would give us a real headache as we witness our biotic God simply screaming "Nooooo!" whenever a squadmate gets impaled 5 meters away from us in a cut scene. And then of course such a cut-scene would end with you finally taking control of your character, with the attacker in front of you in order for you to completely destroy it, only to then run at the corpse of your squadmate for the scene to finally continue with your Ryder crying something cheesy like "No no no no! Why did it have to be youuuuuuu!" * sniff * * tears fall on the corpse * "If only I could have done something!!!". Yeah... yeah no, I don't want to see that happen (please, BioWare).

 

And, for actual game-play, being over-powered as a biotic would just make the game too easy (obviously), but more importantly too stupid. I don't want to play The Force: Andromeda.