74 ответов в этой теме

[Abyss108]

Who's better and why?

 

I'm currently trying to play Origins 6 times, once for each of the origins, as I've never actually gone through the entire game with anything other than female human mage - I want to see exactly how much of an effect these other origins have! Also, it would be nice to have some other imports to use for DA2/DAI, not to mention actually getting to play Awakening (my only Warden sacrificed herself so I never played it)! The only thing is, I'm stuck choosing between Amell and Surana for the mage opening! So, I'm looking for some other opinions on which character is more interesting! I'll be playing female, if that matters.

 

Pro-Amell

- Is my original "canon" so feels "right"

- Already have 2 Elves, but only 1 other human

- I've heard some of the Elf-specific dialogue doesn't quite make sense eg. Leiliana asks you about the alienage when you were raised in the tower

- Being related to Hawke is kinda cool

 

Pro-Surana

- Is new to me!

- My other Elves are kinda both asses, would be good to have a "nice" Elf

- Humans are boring

 

Let me know which you prefer!

[caradoc2000]

Elven racial bonuses are a bit better for mages (+2 to willpower and magic).

[sylvanaerie]

My Surana is my canon warden.  I like the combo of mage and elf specific lines (plus Teagan's flirt with a mage of either race is the best!).  I always try to play elves when I can in these games (my canon Inquisitor is also an elf).

 

Really it just boils down to a bit of window dressing of appearance and dialogue and whatever you want to make up in her head canon about your warden.  In play, of course, an Amell isn't much different from a Surana, and as for odd lines (like Leliana's) you can write that off as your PC may have gone to the tower later in life or so early she doesn't recall getting the blood drawn for her phylactery. Or Leliana may be speaking of elves in alienages because that's the only kind she knows and she sees more the pointy ears than the huge staff on your back. IE she's focused on your elfy-ness and not the magey-ness.

 

And as Caradoc points out you get bonuses, but I think the races were created to pretty much balance out each other well.  Couple points here and there not that big a deal.

[GoldenGail3]

Amell. Sorry Surana; I just like to be better then Warden Carver; it gives me great pleasure he's working for Warden Commader Amell, a relative of his. It's also ironic, too.

[Akrabra]

Amell for the Hawke connection, which i love. Surana because beeing doubly hated, elf and mage, no no in Thedas. 

[Marika Haliwell]

My main canon is Amell .. always

[GoldenGail3]

My main canon is Amell .. always

Amell is my second canon. My Queen Cousland is my main canon, lol.

[Catilina]

Surana. Elf, mage, I like handicap start.

[theskymoves]

My canon is a female Surana, but I found the difference between an Amell and a Surana to be somewhere between insignificant and negligible.

[Just My Moniker]

Surana. Hands down.

[Ghost Gal]

Surana.

 

Why just be a mage when you can be a mage and an elf?

 

Why just explore the flat, two-dimensional "debate" of Andrastian human mages and Templars arguing whether the line "magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him" holds any weight, when you can add in the historical, racial, and cultural view of elves? Humans' history is pretty clear-cut: Tyrannical human magisters had all the power, then Andrastian human muggles took down the imperium, now Andrastian human muggles have all the power while mages are prisoners. Elves have their own place in history. They historically and culturally revere their own magic, they were historically oppressed by Tevinter and Andrastian humans, and are still oppressed in Andrastian society whether they have magic or not.

 

As a human mage you can only say, "If I just didn't have magic, I could be free or have power." As an elf, you receive **** for being an elf as well as a mage. You walk around knowing that even if you didn't have magic, you'd still be oppressed. Have magic? Get chucked into a Circle, oppressed by Templars, Annulled when too many mages revolt. No magic? Get chucked into alienage, oppressed by guards, soldiers, and nobles, and get purged when too many elves revolt.

 

Not to mention the headcanon view that for all Andrastians preach "Magic is what allowed Tevinter to enslave the world," your people were all slaves regardless of magical ability, and once Andrastians flipped the table your people went from bowing to Tevinter to bowing to Andrastian humans. Not to mention a potential roleplay scenario where you're stuck in a cultural No Man's Land since you're biologically an elf but was raised in a human Circle, cut off from your culture and your people if you happen to miss them or wish to learn more of your heritage. (Ripe for headcanon potential.)

 

Not to mention Surana has the only truly "blank slate" background, so you can imagine any upbringing you want (you can even tell Eadric that you come from Highever, Denerim, Lothering, or don't remember) and how it shaped your character and/or her worldviews. And the game is vague on how much persecution Circle elves face (if you talk to Duncan before guiding him to his room, you can tell him whether you experienced racism or not), which can contribute to headcanon.

 

There's just so much potential there.

[Qun00]

Amell. Sorry Surana; I just like to be better then Warden Carver; it gives me great pleasure he's working for Warden Commader Amell, a relative of his. It's also ironic, too.

Warden-Commander Amell operates in Ferelden. Carver is a warden in the Free Marches.

Surana.

Why just be a mage when you can be a mage and an elf?

Why just explore the flat, two-dimensional "debate" of Andrastian human mages and Templars arguing whether the line "magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him" holds any weight, when you can add in the historical, racial, and cultural view of elves? Humans' history is pretty clear-cut: Tyrannical human magisters had all the power, then Andrastian human muggles took down the imperium, now Andrastian human muggles have all the power while mages are prisoners. Elves have their own place in history. They historically and culturally revere their own magic, they were historically oppressed by Tevinter and Andrastian humans, and are still oppressed in Andrastian society whether they have magic or not.

As a human mage you can only say, "If I just didn't have magic, I could be free or have power." As an elf, you receive **** for being an elf as well as a mage. You walk around knowing that even if you didn't have magic, you'd still be oppressed. Have magic? Get chucked into a Circle, oppressed by Templars, Annulled when too many mages revolt. No magic? Get chucked into alienage, oppressed by guards, soldiers, and nobles, and get purged when too many elves revolt.

Not to mention the headcanon view that for all Andrastians preach "Magic is what allowed Tevinter to enslave the world," your people were all slaves regardless of magical ability, and once Andrastians flipped the table your people went from bowing to Tevinter to bowing to Andrastian humans. Not to mention a potential roleplay scenario where you're stuck in a cultural No Man's Land since you're biologically an elf but was raised in a human Circle, cut off from your culture and your people if you happen to miss them or wish to learn more of your heritage. (Ripe for headcanon potential.)

Not to mention Surana has the only truly "blank slate" background, so you can imagine any upbringing you want (you can even tell Eadric that you come from Highever, Denerim, Lothering, or don't remember) and how it shaped your character and/or her worldviews. And the game is vague on how much persecution Circle elves face (if you talk to Duncan before guiding him to his room, you can tell him whether you experienced racism or not), which can contribute to headcanon.

There's just so much potential there.

Surana is the elven Warden that identifies the least with her people. She probably thinks and feels like a human in most of the time, except for the occasional racist remark that reminds her that she's got pointed ears.

And even so, that doesn't come close to the way city elves and the Dalish experience this.

[kimgoold]

Surana is my cannon HoF. I only play elves or other races when available preferably magic users, I'm human so playing one really doesn't appeal to me. 

[GoldenGail3]

Warden-Commander Amell operates in Ferelden. Carver is a warden in the Free Marches.
.

Well techinally she still is his superior. Lol; I image Carver might have a hayday to know that his cousin is also a famous Mage. Like Hawke!

[Abyss108]

Thanks guys, I think I'm gonna go with Surana!

 

She seems to be winning, and Revassan has made some especially good arguments for her!

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Surana

[Marika Haliwell]

Amell is my second canon. My Queen Cousland is my main canon, lol.

Queen Cousland is my second canon lol.

[sjsharp2011]

All mymages so far have been Amell's It's not that I'm against playing an elven mage my playthrough's just haven't ended up going that way.

[Ghost Gal]

Surana is the elven Warden that identifies the least with her people. She probably thinks and feels like a human in most of the time, except for the occasional racist remark that reminds her that she's got pointed ears.

 

Are you seriously telling people what they can and cannot headcanon and roleplay? 

 

It 's not impossible to feel elven in the Circle. Eadric is a Circle elf who identifies very strongly as an elf. He was taken to the Circle young and has some vague memories of life before the Circle (his mom was a cook and servant to some farmers), yet he's aware that the elven people have a greater affinity for magic than humans, and he wants very much to study hard to show these "shems" what an elven mage can do. He's also slightly more friendly to a fellow elven mage, slightly more hostile to a human mage (who can confirm his prejudice by retorting, "I don't take orders from elves.")

 

Which reminds me: If your characters has memories of their life and family from before the Circle, they could very well remember the alienage or being subservient to or mistreated by humans or heard their elven family tell them about their culture and heritage, and they could still hold onto those memories and that identity even in the Circle. That doesn't all magically go away once you enter the Circle. 

 

Elven Mages on the whole also seem to be better educated in history than the average peasant, since they live in a library and have nothing to do but study history, magical theory, and religious rhetoric all their lives. Knowing their people once had their own magical kingdom that got destroyed by human magisters, then their people were enslaved by human magisters regardless of their own magical ability, then Andrastian humans took back their new homeland and re-conquered and re-subjugated them, can make the Chantry-approved rhetoric of "Magic is the only oppressive evil since Tevinter was ruled by mages and oppressed us non-mages" ring hollow.

 

There are a lot of ways of looking at it, not just the one.

 

And even so, that doesn't come close to the way city elves and the Dalish experience this.

 

If DAI has taught me anything, it's that there's no one "right way" to experience being an elf.

[Qis]

Surana would be more fitting as Arcane Warrior...being an Elf who raised in Circle Tower learning human magic, then find an old Elven magic in an Elven ruin and become the last Arcane Warrior, an order of ancient Elven mage-warrior

 

But Amell can be the only human and the last Arcane Warrior in which make her special by that...

 

Well, depends on how want to role-play "Arcane Warrior"

[Bayonet Hipshot]

If you want to play as Surana, the most thematically suitable specializations would be Arcane Warrior and Keeper. As for Blood Magic, that is up to personal preference.

[Qun00]

Are you seriously telling people what they can and cannot headcanon and roleplay?

It 's not impossible to feel elven in the Circle. Eadric is a Circle elf who identifies very strongly as an elf. He was taken to the Circle young and has some vague memories of life before the Circle (his mom was a cook and servant to some farmers), yet he's aware that the elven people have a greater affinity for magic than humans, and he wants very much to study hard to show these "shems" what an elven mage can do. He's also slightly more friendly to a fellow elven mage, slightly more hostile to a human mage (who can confirm his prejudice by retorting, "I don't take orders from elves.")

Which reminds me: If your characters has memories of their life and family from before the Circle, they could very well remember the alienage or being subservient to or mistreated by humans or heard their elven family tell them about their culture and heritage, and they could still hold onto those memories and that identity even in the Circle. That doesn't all magically go away once you enter the Circle.

Elven Mages on the whole also seem to be better educated in history than the average peasant, since they live in a library and have nothing to do but study history, magical theory, and religious rhetoric all their lives. Knowing their people once had their own magical kingdom that got destroyed by human magisters, then their people were enslaved by human magisters regardless of their own magical ability, then Andrastian humans took back their new homeland and re-conquered and re-subjugated them, can make the Chantry-approved rhetoric of "Magic is the only oppressive evil since Tevinter was ruled by mages and oppressed us non-mages" ring hollow.

There are a lot of ways of looking at it, not just the one.


If DAI has taught me anything, it's that there's no one "right way" to experience being an elf.

I won't refrain from explaining what I believe to make the most sense because someone will feel threatened. No apologies.

Of course, this idea of yours may work if the mage in question happens to be a late bloomer...which seems to be the minority. They usually awaken their gift and are sent to the Circle as children. And there is precious little one remembers from their early childhood.

Surana was born in the alienage. Not raised.

[Abyss108]

I won't refrain from explaining what I believe to make the most sense because someone will feel threatened. No apologies.

Of course, this idea of yours may work if the mage in question happens to be a late bloomer...which seems to be the minority. They usually awaken their gift and are sent to the Circle as children. And there is precious little one remembers from their early childhood.

Surana was born in the alienage. Not raised.

 

Just because she wasn't raised with her people doesn't mean she wouldn't identify with them. If she looks different from everyone around her, and everyone treats her differently because of it, of course she would feel like an Elf and not a human. And it's highly likely she was treated differently on top of that for numerous reasons -

 

- You get dialogue to say she was treated differently for being an Elf

- Another Elf get's dialogue saying he was treated differently for being an Elf

- Kids often bully anyone who is different or smaller than they are, she was both of these things

- Elves have an affinity for magic, which would lead to Templars being more suspicious of her, and other kids being jealous and saying any success she has was because of her race

 

So it's very likely she wouldn't feel "human" at all due to these reasons. She might not have experienced poverty in an alienage culture, or Dalish culture, but she would want to know more about her people (there are dialogue options to say this too) and would want to be among them where humans didn't look down on her.

 

You can play her differently to this if you want to, but that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. If it didn't make sense, Bioware wouldn't have put numerous dialogue options in the game saying this is exactly what happened, and also other NPCs who agree with it. It's incredibly naive to think that as soon as an Elf steps into a circle, racism dies or they stop realizing they are different from everyone around them. 

[Dai Grepher]

I played a female elf Chantry Loyalist who was an anti-mage. It was fun. She even had responses that were pro-Chantry, and people also reacted to the fact that she was an Andrastian elf.

 

My male human Lucrosian bloodmage was fun too, but most of his story felt similar to my male human noble warrior, except he made different game choices now and then.

 

I'd say go with Surana.

[Ghost Gal]

I won't refrain from explaining what I believe to make the most sense because someone will feel threatened. No apologies.

 

Between the two of us, I'm not arguing that my interpretation is only one that makes any sense or is the only one that players could reasonably interpret or roleplay based on the information presented in the game.

 

Please don't misunderstand. I'm not saying everyone has to roleplay Surana as identifying with elves. I'm simply saying it's an option for people who want to roleplay it that way, since the game provides plenty of dialogue options for Surana to express those views. (Surana receives just as many comments for being an elf as a mage, Surana can say they were mistreated in the Circle for being an elf, and Surana can express kinship for other elves and/or express a desire to get to know his/her people at various points.)

 

Of course, this idea of yours may work if the mage in question happens to be a late bloomer...which seems to be the minority. They usually awaken their gift and are sent to the Circle as children. And there is precious little one remembers from their early childhood.

 

Most people start to retain memories from around the age of three or four. Various comments from various mages across the franchise have implied that children more often come into their magic closer to their double digits than their terrible two's. (Wynne was nine when she came into her magic, Anders was twelve, the real Cole was practically a teenager, Fiona came into magic after age seven, etc.) Those who come into their magic as early as four or five (like Jowan, possibly the Mage Warden) are less common.

 

Furthermore, since most Circle mages you encounter across the games, comics, and novels have pretty clear memories of life before the Circle (at least enough to say whether they were a peasant or noble, lived in a farm or alienage, etc), it's likely that to pre-Circle memories are more common than, "I can't remember anything before the Circle."

 

Surana was born in the alienage. Not raised.

 

So? Again, depending on when you imagine Surana was taken away (the game keeps it vague so you can decide whether s/he was taken earlier than s/he could remember or later childhood), s/he could still have plenty of good memories from the alienage, identify with them as "her people" rather than the humans in the tower s/he was forcibly chucked into, s/he could prefer what s/he remembers of life before the alienage, etc.

 

Besides, one doesn't have to be exclusively raised in an Alienage or Dalish Clan (from beginning to end) to experience prejudice by humans for being an elf, identify with other elves, identify more with elven history and culture over human history and culture, etc. There is no one universal experience for elves to feel like elves.

 

Just because she wasn't raised with her people doesn't mean she wouldn't identify with them. If she looks different from everyone around her, and everyone treats her differently because of it, of course she would feel like an Elf and not a human. And it's highly likely she was treated differently on top of that for numerous reasons -

 

- You get dialogue to say she was treated differently for being an Elf

- Another Elf get's dialogue saying he was treated differently for being an Elf

- Kids often bully anyone who is different or smaller than they are, she was both of these things

- Elves have an affinity for magic, which would lead to Templars being more suspicious of her, and other kids being jealous and saying any success she has was because of her race

 

So it's very likely she wouldn't feel "human" at all due to these reasons. She might not have experienced poverty in an alienage culture, or Dalish culture, but she would want to know more about her people (there are dialogue options to say this too) and would want to be among them where humans didn't look down on her.

 

You can play her differently to this if you want to, but that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. If it didn't make sense, Bioware wouldn't have put numerous dialogue options in the game saying this is exactly what happened, and also other NPCs who agree with it. It's incredibly naive to think that as soon as an Elf steps into a circle, racism dies or they stop realizing they are different from everyone around them. 

 

You answered far more eloquently (and patiently) than I could.