53 réponses à ce sujet

[IntoTheDarkness]

When Qunari's plots to blow up the exalted council was discovered, I expected the following route to be available as one of player's choices.

 

Stop the Quanari plot in secret but let the bombs go off, killing most of major nobles and the rulers of Orlais and Ferelden. The inquisition only saves the Divine by taking her to a safe place under a false pretense of asking for a counsel. There is a power vacuum in Orlais and Ferelden. The inquisition forms an alliance with the Divine, getting her to declare the inquisition as the protector of Orlais, and enthrone a royal family member as a puppet ruler, effectively forming a duarchy of Inquisitor and the Divine in Orlais.

 

As to Ferelden, the worst case scnario is a civil war. However, this can be prevented by putting Anora or Alistair on the throne if either of these two survived. The inquisition's direct backing of those two can cause ferelden minor nobles who survived the incident to see it as Orlais meddling with Ferelden politics, so the inquisition will have to persuade Teagan Guerrin to support the candidate and officialy appear to stay out of Ferelden politics sicne it is mutually beneficial for Teagan and Inquisitor.

 

Quanari invasion using eluvians failed since Solas took control, so the inquisition will have time to prepare against further attacks as long as Tavinter holds Quanari at bay.

 

I thought I would be able to do a coup like this to seize power and emerge as the true power behind the Orlaisian throne. Under this scenario, the emperess is dead = no ruler; major nobles are dead = power vacuum; Divine declares the inquisition as the protector of Orlais = the inquisition has necessary legitimacy; the inquisition stopped Qunari invasion in the eyes of the public = it has a popular support; the inquisition has military might matching some nations = it has force. It's a perfect situation to grab power.

 

The Divine doesn't need to know what truely happened. Cullen and Montilyet don't need to know about the scheme either since they are likely going to disagree, and all Inquisitor has to do is to persuade Leliana by saying how much troubles the politicians will cause at the inquisition's effort to stop Solas, and telling her rosy prospects of civil war not occuring in Ferelden. It's not an easy job, but not too far from letting Celene get assassinated which Leliana doesn't have a problem with despite possible political distablization in Orlais.

 

To be honest, were it not a game, I would have purged Leliana a long time ago. She is competant, but she is too independant and has a strong opinions of her own for a spymaster which makes betrayal a possibility when the lord and the spymaster's opinions don't match. A good spymaster should be one that absolutely follows his/her lord's order without a question. If I were Inquisitor, I would have directed Leliana to some other task and managed the spy network by myself, so whatever I scheme is kept as secretive as possible without oppositions from my inner circle.

 

Anyway, I was disappointed that after saving Orlais 3 times(from a civil war, Corypheus, and Qunari), all the inquisition gets to be is a servant organization of the Divine or be disbanded. I noticed that DAI offers a lot less 'evil' options compared to previous Dragon Age games, which is not bad because it felt somewhat more realistic. In DAO playing as an elf, I yelled to a queen "You double stabbing beach(euphemized), I am going to kill you!" and punched a duchess wihout a consequence. In DAI I found that even choosing rude options result in Inquisitior still trying to be diplomatic and use rhetorical words which is actually more believable. Still, I found the lack of a 'coup' option rather disappointing bcause that's something I would definately have done were I in the position of Inquisitor.

 

Am I thinking too evil, or did anyone think the same when you were only given two options to either become the puppet of the divine or to disband the inquisition at the end of Trespasser?

[KamuiStorm]

No, I would've done the same more or less save for a few changes. I would've looked into making lelianna a tranquil of sorts this way I wouldn't have to rid myself of a valuable asset and the possibility of betrayal would be non existent. I also would've killed the divine once in power or used some type of necromancy to us her as a lifeless puppet ensuring my rise to power would be concrete.

I think having more evil options would've been welcoming but eh what can you do?

[Xerrai]

I think why the end results were so limited is because it would be easier to account for either choice in future games. Regardless of the choices themselves, the Inquisition is a very powerful organization that (presumably) holds sway in virtually every corner of the known world. They can't treat it like the warden or the city of Kirkwall which are comparatively insular cases, confined to only affecting a small tiny portion of the world.

 

The choices available are both narratively plausible and while likely to change details in certain games, is likely not prone to changing them all that much. Thus, it is more cost effective and resource savvy to have the available choices only amount to so much.

 

Radical options like the one described, will likely change too much in terms of story. Everything from the reigning monarchs, to how their policies would likely be changed to affect citizens all over Thedas and the over-prevalence of the Inquisition itself (presumably expanding, maybe getting a few more outposts and forts) will make it so that that that choice alone will render an entire new world completely differently than that of its former counterparts. If they try to make that choice make even matters a modicum of what it implies, they basically have to create an entirely new game.

[thats1evildude]

I don't think the rest of the Inquisition would be on board with all the murders.

[AnimalBoy]

I play too nice to do anything like that. I want everyone to be alive and as happy as possible at the end of a game. Killing only the ultimate evils and a few minor characters.

[myahele]

Seeing that DA4 will take place Northern Thedas or Tevinter, a decision such as keeping the bombs and killing them should not have a mass effect to the plot.

 

Who follows afterwards can just be mentioned in passing/ letters.

[AlanC9]

I don't see how an evil traitor Inquisitor actually sells this to his people, Iron Bull excepted. You'd have to make it look like sheer incompetence.

Speaking ofevil, let's hope the OP never gets anywhere near a position of power.

[IntoTheDarkness]

I don't think the rest of the Inquisition would be on board with all the murders.

Precisely why I wrote in the OP:

 

"the Divine doesn't need to know what truely happened. Cullen and Montilyet don't need to know about the scheme either since they are likely going to disagree, and all Inquisitor has to do is to persuade Leliana by saying"

 

Spies who report to the spymaster know that there are bombs but only the spymaster knows the whole picture that bombs are placed across Thedas. So either you persuade Leliana or control the network yourself and keep it a secret, and make a gesture move to deal with bombs so no one is suspicious.

[IntoTheDarkness]

No, I would've done the same more or less save for a few changes. I would've looked into making lelianna a tranquil of sorts this way I wouldn't have to rid myself of a valuable asset and the possibility of betrayal would be non existent. I also would've killed the divine once in power or used some type of necromancy to us her as a lifeless puppet ensuring my rise to power would be concrete.

I think having more evil options would've been welcoming but eh what can you do?

 

That is crazy. You were made a leader by those advisers, and much of the inquisition's power is delegated to them. Most likely you will be assassinated by the advisers and declared missing to the public. Assassinating the divine and making her a lifeless puppet is even more far-fetched.

 

I spoke of purging Leliana in the OP not in a sense that I forcefully remove her from the position, but rather giving her a different, seemingly equally important task(for example mediating Orlaisian nobles and representing inquisition in the Orlaisian court) to occupy her so that I can manage the spy network myself. Going against any of your advisers is a suicidal move since you are, in large parts, a mere symbol and an inspiration. You can use your popularity to the public and your mark to make councils defer to you on few matters they disagree with, but openly planning mass murders and a coup, or antagonizing one of them are implausible.

 

I only mentioned the scenario in the OP because bombs were planted by Qunari and the inquisition, unbeknownst to the public and everyone but you and the spymaster, can "fail" to remove all the bombs, seizing the chance to grab power with legitimacy and just reasons without tarnishing your reputation and position.

[GoldenGail3]

Yesh. Evilness is always welcome in my books. Even though my canon is super good....

[KaiserShep]

I can only really see something like this working for a non-carryover playthrough, like the Shepard death ending of ME2, which isn't really something that DA's ever done. Even if the next game is far removed from this part of Thedas, the writers may want to leave their options open for any titles they may come up with after that. 

[Aimi]

I only mentioned the scenario in the OP because bombs were planted by Qunari and the inquisition, unbeknownst to the public and everyone but you and the spymaster, can "fail" to remove all the bombs, seizing the chance to grab power with legitimacy and just reasons without tarnishing your reputation and position.

The Inquisition's reputation rests on its ability to actually do things. It lacks the institutional legitimacy of established organizations like the Chantry or the Empire. If the Inquisition fails to stop the bomb attacks, why should anybody trust it to do anything else?

Look at it another way. The Inquisition was under investigation by Orlais and Ferelden, mediated by the Chantry. In the middle of this intense scrutiny, terror attacks were carried out on Orlesian and Fereldan leaders. In the middle of this 'vacuum', the Inquisition immediately grabbed for power. There is no possible way to create any sort of plausible deniability for the Inquisition under such circumstances. Instead of the qunari, who appeared to be a relatively distant threat with no obvious immediate motive, the most obvious thing people would think is that the Inquisition murdered its enemies and framed the qunari for it.

This is the sort of plan a particularly dim thriller writer might come up with for a megalomaniacal supervillain, not a plausible Machtergreifung. It's as dumb as the Renegade ending for Mass Effect.

[KaiserShep]

Well, there's always the option of letting everyone die in the explosion, and have the Inquisitor bow out as the world burns around them and vanish, like this:

 

[IntoTheDarkness]

The Inquisition's reputation rests on its ability to actually do things. It lacks the institutional legitimacy of established organizations like the Chantry or the Empire. If the Inquisition fails to stop the bomb attacks, why should anybody trust it to do anything else?

Look at it another way. The Inquisition was under investigation by Orlais and Ferelden, mediated by the Chantry. In the middle of this intense scrutiny, terror attacks were carried out on Orlesian and Fereldan leaders. In the middle of this 'vacuum', the Inquisition immediately grabbed for power. There is no possible way to create any sort of plausible deniability for the Inquisition under such circumstances. Instead of the qunari, who appeared to be a relatively distant threat with no obvious immediate motive, the most obvious thing people would think is that the Inquisition murdered its enemies and framed the qunari for it.

This is the sort of plan a particularly dim thriller writer might come up with for a megalomaniacal supervillain, not a plausible Machtergreifung. It's as dumb as the Renegade ending for Mass Effect.

 

First off I will appreciate it if you stop implying that I am particularly dim for having a different opinion from your own. It makes it hard for anyone to focus on the topic at hand but it only escalates a chance to spawn further ad hominems. I happen to dislike ME's renegade ending, too. The first reply in this thread suggested tranquilizing Leliana and turning the divine into an undead and I didn't insult the poster in my reply. Please be courteous.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I had an impression that the inquisition is not capable of producing mass bombs; that only Qanari is capable of producing a huge amount of explosives. Under that premise the inquisition won't be suspected at all. Invading Qanari will look far more suspicious, even more so with their attempt to infiltrate the winter palace.

 

Even if the explosives can be produced by the inquisition, in the eyes of the public, the inquisition has just stopped a Qanari invasion. They only failed to 'discover' the Qanari's terror attack. The inquisition will not be held accountable if Orlais averted the worst case scenario thanks to the inquisition. Both mages and templars at the peace summit in the Temple of the Sacred Ashes were suspected of the explosion but they didn't suffer a major drawback from the suspicion.

 

In addition this is not going to look like a power grab. You probably don't even have to move a finger. Who is going to lead Orlais when most major noble houses are gone and the empress is dead? People will beg you to lead with Qunari threat becoming evident. You will still refuse one more time, and make a secret deal with the divine who will then proclaim you as the protector of Orlais or some sort; then you can 'reluctantly' take the responsibility, support a royal family member to put him/her in a throne and act as an adviser or a regent, effectively ruling Orlais alongside with the divine. Minor nobles will not dare oppose you but most likely line up behind you. Qunari's threat will help your consolidation of power.

 

This is not a dim disillusion; To repeat myself, the inquisition has a military might that matches some nations'; It has a popular support among commoners. These are why Ferelden wants to disband the inquisition and Orlais wants to put a leash on the inquisition in the first place. You will have a legitimacy with the divine's support, and there will be a power vacuum. Qunaris actually did attack and place bombs. This is a golden setup and the only chance for a smooth power grab without pissing off major power players. Past this point, the inquisition will either serve the divine as a smaller order or disband as happens in the game.

 

I'm not saying this is a perfect plan. If one of your advisers find out and opposes you, you won't be able to carry out the plan because I am aware that your position in the inquisition is largely symbolic. if you can't manage the spynet yourself or Leliana disagrees, boom, there goes your chance. The plan might leak and destroy your reputation as a result. However it is definitely plausible if it works out.

 

As a history major I've read far more unlikely coups succeeding in the past. Things that seem utterly implausible do happen in history, and in my opinion this coup scenario is plausible enough to succeed with some luck.

[KaiserShep]

Whether or not anyone believes that the Inquisition can produce these explosives doesn't really matter, because all it really takes is the belief that they can simply acquire it. With enough money and the right contacts, one could conceivably get just about anything. 

[AlanC9]

I happen to dislike ME's renegade ending, too.

How come?

[thats1evildude]

Precisely why I wrote in the OP:

Spies who report to the spymaster know that there are bombs but only the spymaster knows the whole picture that bombs are placed across Thedas. So either you persuade Leliana or control the network yourself and keep it a secret, and make a gesture move to deal with bombs so no one is suspicious.

I'm still don't understand how this is going to work. You don't actually find any bombs personally; Leliana's agents do all of that. It would still require a lot of Inquisition agents being OK with murdering hundreds, if not thousands of people, and de-stabilizing southern Thedas.

[KaiserShep]

I'm still don't understand how this is going to work. You don't actually find any bombs personally; Leliana's agents do all of that. It would still require a lot of Inquisition agents being OK with murdering hundreds, if not thousands of people, and de-stabilizing southern Thedas.

 

This is why it pays to go to Archvillain Expos. You're just about guaranteed to leave with at least a few dozen henchmen that will display unwavering loyalty in the face of low pay, less than satisfactory room and board, substandard body armor and morally reprehensible acts against humanity. They'll even chant the name of your organization in their battle cry. 

[IntoTheDarkness]

I'm still don't understand how this is going to work. You don't actually find any bombs personally; Leliana's agents do all of that. It would still require a lot of Inquisition agents being OK with murdering hundreds, if not thousands of people, and de-stabilizing southern Thedas.

 

You or the spymaster is the only person who has the whole picture that hundreds or thousands might die. Spy network is usually a point organization, hence spies don't know who their colleges are and can't contact each other. One particular agent wouldn't know more than the fact that there are a few bombs that he discovered. It won't be a difficult job to direct them to search more bombs in an unimportant locations(to search and remove bombs that would kill off less important nobles) and keep the rest of spies in dark, or send those agents into a death by explosion like Brilela did with her spies if you are in control of the spy network instead of Leliana.

 

The inquisition discovers the presence of bombs by investigating the barrel that an elf spy was carrying, and Leliana exposes the rest of bombs by fully running her network across Thedas. At that point of the discovery though, there are only handful of agents who has the knowledge. It's a simple matter of not ordering further searches. Even if some spies work together a spy network is made of independent cells so that a branch can be severed at any time. You can control a flow of information within your spy group.

[Nefla]

Since they continue the storylines and have a ton of cameos from game to game, I think they've learned that it's easier to just not let the player have a choice than to let them have a huge choice, have epilogue slides that tell the impact, and then just gloss over or retcon them in the next game. Personally I wish they would do smaller scale stories that are not connected. It would give a lot more freedom as well.

[Aimi]

First off I will appreciate it if you stop implying that I am particularly dim for having a different opinion from your own. It makes it hard for anyone to focus on the topic at hand but it only escalates a chance to spawn further ad hominems. I happen to dislike ME's renegade ending, too. The first reply in this thread suggested tranquilizing Leliana and turning the divine into an undead and I didn't insult the poster in my reply. Please be courteous.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I had an impression that the inquisition is not capable of producing mass bombs; that only Qanari is capable of producing a huge amount of explosives. Under that premise the inquisition won't be suspected at all. Invading Qanari will look far more suspicious, even more so with their attempt to infiltrate the winter palace.
 
Even if the explosives can be produced by the inquisition, in the eyes of the public, the inquisition has just stopped a Qanari invasion. They only failed to 'discover' the Qanari's terror attack. The inquisition will not be held accountable if Orlais averted the worst case scenario thanks to the inquisition. Both mages and templars at the peace summit in the Temple of the Sacred Ashes were suspected of the explosion but they didn't suffer a major drawback from the suspicion.
 
In addition this is not going to look like a power grab. You probably don't even have to move a finger. Who is going to lead Orlais when most major noble houses are gone and the empress is dead? People will beg you to lead with Qunari threat becoming evident. You will still refuse one more time, and make a secret deal with the divine who will then proclaim you as the protector of Orlais or some sort; then you can 'reluctantly' take the responsibility, support a royal family member to put him/her in a throne and act as an adviser or a regent, effectively ruling Orlais alongside with the divine. Minor nobles will not dare oppose you but most likely line up behind you. Qunari's threat will help your consolidation of power.
 
This is not a dim disillusion; To repeat myself, the inquisition has a military might that matches some nations'; It has a popular support among commoners. These are why Ferelden wants to disband the inquisition and Orlais wants to put a leash on the inquisition in the first place. You will have a legitimacy with the divine's support, and there will be a power vacuum. Qunaris actually did attack and place bombs. This is a golden setup and the only chance for a smooth power grab without pissing off major power players. Past this point, the inquisition will either serve the divine as a smaller order or disband as happens in the game.
 
I'm not saying this is a perfect plan. If one of your advisers find out and opposes you, you won't be able to carry out the plan because I am aware that your position in the inquisition is largely symbolic. if you can't manage the spynet yourself or Leliana disagrees, boom, there goes your chance. The plan might leak and destroy your reputation as a result. However it is definitely plausible if it works out.
 
As a history major I've read far more unlikely coups succeeding in the past. Things that seem utterly implausible do happen in history, and in my opinion this coup scenario is plausible enough to succeed with some luck.

People want silly things in the name of wish fulfillment. If you're offended that I think that this plan is dumb, then I'm sorry, but I still think it's dumb, and bleating about ad homs and whatnot doesn't actually make me think it's less dumb. Quite the opposite.

It doesn't matter what the Inquisition is actually, physically capable of doing, but what they can reasonably be thought to be capable of doing. These are the people, after all, that sealed a giant rectum in the sky that had demons pouring out of it, and who raised an army ex nihilo and used it to reestablish order across half a continent. Whether they would have had to make the bombs, merely steal them, or take advantage of an existing situation for their own nefarious benefit, is a purely academic question in the context of whatever you're trying to pull. What matters is this: it's blatantly obvious that the Inquisition is responsible.

Furthermore, if the whole thing plays out like you want it to, the Inquisition has virtually no proof that it stopped a qunari invasion. In the game, the reason the qunari don't invade isn't because Solas stops the invasion somehow, it's because the bomb threat is neutralized, which means that the qunari wouldn't benefit from their first strike and instead would be stuck in a war against a much more fully prepared Orlesian military. Solas and the Inquisitor prevent the first plan by disabling the bombs and then destroying the bomb factory, and then the last part of the DLC is the Wolf Hunt, tracking down Solas himself. That last fight against the viddasala's minions isn't about stopping the invasion, it's about trying to keep them from getting Solas. So, by letting all the bombs go off, the Inquisition is basically giving the qunari the green light to invade. But let's say that doesn't happen, like you want, because Reasons: well, okay, then if the qunari aren't invading, what's the evidence that they're the ones responsible for conveniently eliminating the Inquisition's enemies?

You think that the Inquisition will be carried into power without having to lift a finger, which is the sort of thing that only happens in fantasies and the aforementioned thrillers. Or, y'know, Disney cartoons.

You say that more unlikely coups have succeeded in history. That's kind of goofy. There aren't any historical instances very much like this at all. The massive bomb threat pushed it a long way past 'history' and into fantasy; planting unseen bombs all over the place is impossible for basically anybody without access to magic elven teleportation mirrors. Hell, the English had major problems with even one bomb. The concept of simultaneous coordinated assassinations in general is something out of The Godfather, not reality; the thing that probably comes closest is the Nazi Nacht der langen Messer, which was carried out by the people who were actually in charge and who therefore had resources and legal sanction behind their actions that the Inquisition is definitionally incapable of matching. They also had radios and telephones.

And as far as a historical analogy for the actual coup d'état goes: I can't think of anything like this that ever actually succeeded long-term for exactly the sorts of reasons I brought up, but I only have a master's in history. Please, undergraduate, enlighten me.

Is it so unreasonable to just call this whole thread what it is - wish fulfillment for somebody who wants to be the sneering supervillain? I don't see the point of cloaking it in faulty logic when the selling point of roleplaying Lord Blackwood is more than enough for plenty of people on the forum.

[SardaukarElite]

Am I thinking too evil

 

Let's see:

 

Overly complex plan for world domination? Check!

Assuming that the people will be grateful for you leadership despite offering them nothing? Check!

Considering purging the competent, just in case they betray you some time later? Check!

Expecting the impossible from your meager forces? Check!

 

Yeah, pretty much. 

[Abyss108]

I don't see how this is supposed to work. Both countries already hate you and distrust you, you sit back and let the bombs go off, now coming across as incompetent as well because you failed to stop the Qunari invasion, and expect anyone to make an alliance with you?

[mgagne]

If it's power you seek OP then the surest way to get it, legitimately, is to marry Celene, right after Corypheus has been defeated.  At that point the Inquisitor is at the apex of his popularity, worshiped like a warrior prophet.  It's then he should approach the Empress and offers her a deal: you closest relatives (and rivals) are dead but you cannot fully trust your own nobles and military, which is why we've been helping from the sidelines and keeping watch on your capital, but the threat remains.  Marry me and you gain an army that, through me, will be devoted to you without question. 

 

 

Being the consummate player of the Game she is, Celene would immediately pick up what he's after: give his inquisition the legitimacy it lacks to operate on its own and place it beyond scrutiny; who would dare question the right to rule of the new Consort?  Meanwhile she'd gain the military leader she lost when Gaspard was executed, she'd gain reliable troops *and* agents for the changes she'd been working to establish, she'd also gain the means to counterweight the Chantry's power, especially if Vivienne is Divine.  Such an alliance would secure her throne far more than letting the Council of Heralds - thus the great nobles of the Empire - put a leash on the Inquisition - or let it disband. 

 

Imagine, Grand Inquisitor *and* Emperor or Prince Consort or Lord Regent...  No one could stand against him.  Ferelden would bark, that's what dogs do, but they'd be in no position to go to war.  Oh I definitely think she would take such a deal.

[Dabrikishaw]

I think why the end results were so limited is because it would be easier to account for either choice in future games. Regardless of the choices themselves, the Inquisition is a very powerful organization that (presumably) holds sway in virtually every corner of the known world. They can't treat it like the warden or the city of Kirkwall which are comparatively insular cases, confined to only affecting a small tiny portion of the world.

 

The choices available are both narratively plausible and while likely to change details in certain games, is likely not prone to changing them all that much. Thus, it is more cost effective and resource savvy to have the available choices only amount to so much.

 

Radical options like the one described, will likely change too much in terms of story. Everything from the reigning monarchs, to how their policies would likely be changed to affect citizens all over Thedas and the over-prevalence of the Inquisition itself (presumably expanding, maybe getting a few more outposts and forts) will make it so that that that choice alone will render an entire new world completely differently than that of its former counterparts. If they try to make that choice make even matters a modicum of what it implies, they basically have to create an entirely new game.

This is the best post I've seen here that describes why Trespasser had to end the way it did.