80 réponses à ce sujet

[Arshei]

[KaiserShep]

Man I sure hope the franchise ends with the darkspawn being eradicated for good.

[Heimdall]

What retcon?

Like I said, "theory". Starting in DA2, emissaries got unique models that look more similar to the Architect/Corypheus and in Descent they got their own Alphas. I suspect the devs have quietly retconned the emissaries into their own breed of darkspawn, originating with the first broodmother, female magister(s) that tried to reach the City. Making them the first darkspawn breed.

[kimgoold]

I thought the longer a Warden lived the more infertile they became, thats why Riordan was unsuitable for the DR in DAO. So at the point any female warden is going for their Calling 20/30 years tainted I'd be amazed if they could even have children by then.

 

And second they said Wardens are immune to the taint.

[Marshal Moriarty]

Many things are theoretically possible. Mages can be tempted by demons, which is easier the greater the danger posed to the mage, the more stress they are under etc. But does that then mean that mages should never be used in a combat role, even with the obvious benefits they bring? If you give a man a sword and tell him to use it to fight, there is a chance that someone will take it from him, and use it to kill someone innocent far away from any battlefield. So do you not issue weapons to your soldiers, just in case?

 

The Grey Wardens are not so numerous that they can turn away volunteers and promising recruits based on gender, owing to the possibility of Broodmothers being created. The Darkspawn will always have the numbers to mount raids and capture women to replenish Broodmother numbers. As Alistair and Duncan point out, you can only chase the spawn so far into the Deep Roads, before you would have to turn back. The Roads extend across much of the known world, and their collapsed state, along with the near extinction of the Dwarfs, means that ferrying resources about and/or moving significant bodies of troops (even if you had access to such manpower) would make it a never ending and extremely difficult to maintain conflict.

 

There is no long term solution for wiping out the Darkspawn. The Dwarfs no longer have the manpower, and still refuse to engage with the surface world or countenance asking for help. The Wardens very nature means they cannot conscript too many people, or various nations will accuse them of overstepping their mandate and cut all ties with them, And the surface nations forget Darkspawn even exist the moment a Blight ends.

 

So if there is no chance at any kind of overall victory, that means the Wardens have to keep holding the line as best they can, training and staying ready for invasions and Blights as best they can, with whomever they have available. Its not really a question of strategy anymore in the Deep Roads. The Darkspawn have won - the only thing they can do is keep what meagre territory they and the Dwards still have. If the Spawn get extra Broodmothers from Wardens now and then, its really just pouring more water into a goblet you can't see because the room the goblet is in was flooded long ago.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Many things are theoretically possible. Mages can be tempted by demons, which is easier the greater the danger posed to the mage, the more stress they are under etc. But does that then mean that mages should never be used in a combat role, even with the obvious benefits they bring? If you give a man a sword and tell him to use it to fight, there is a chance that someone will take it from him, and use it to kill someone innocent far away from any battlefield. So do you not issue weapons to your soldiers, just in case?

 

Yes , besides another horrible comparison, threat that normal person poses is nowhere near that abomnation poses so pretty another knife=nuclear bomb comparison.

[MzChaos]

Makes a person wonder about Ser Ruth doesn't it?  I sent her into the Deep Roads.  Perhaps she is, at this very moment, becoming a broodmother.  She did look young enough to still be able to have children.

[Vigilance97]

I remember David Gaider saying the Wardens didn't know how broodmothers were made, but that was "retconned"(if you can retcon a dev comment) in Last Flight. I distinctly remember the 4th. Blight protagonist knowing about how broodmothers were made. I'm pretty sure Wardens not being able to become broodmothers wasn't mentioned in that book, I would have noticed that.

 

After Origins came out, somebody asked Gaider the question in the OP (albeit with slightly different wording). He admitted that the writing team hadn't even thought of that, and eventually they crafted the explanation given here: that Wardens can't become broodmothers, because magic reasons. As an explanation, it's fine, but the fact that they hadn't thought about it when writing their eldritch rape horror story is disappointing.

Source? I don't remember anything about Wardens not being able to become broodmothers in any of the games, books, comics. Did Gaider say it? The way you wrote it makes it a bit unclear if Gaider said all of that or if everything after "hadn't even thought of that" is speculation on your end.

 

The blog post where he said Wardens didn't know was after DA2 came out, so presumably after what you're referring to, and he didn't mention anything about Wardens not being able to become broodmothers.

 

I wish I could find that part in Last Flight. I don't remember why that elf Warden(whatever her name was) was thinking about broodmothers, but it was probably because she was afraid to become one, which would mean it's possible. I can't prove it, though.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

It seems to me that Gaider did not acknowledge this issue for the GW when he wrote the broodmothers lore in DAO

[KaiserShep]

Makes a person wonder about Ser Ruth doesn't it?  I sent her into the Deep Roads.  Perhaps she is, at this very moment, becoming a broodmother.  She did look young enough to still be able to have children.

I know. I didn't like the option to send her to the Deep Roads, but I didn't want that to affect my Inquisitor's judgment, considering there's no way she could know about broodmothers. Seriously I would really like our PC to be able to learn the truth and react. I dislike just having metaknowledge and not being able to properly acknowledge it in dialogue. I'd accept horrified reactions from companions.

[Abyss108]

"Isseya herself had decided long ago that she would become an abomination before she let the darkspawn carry her off to become a broodmother".

 

(Isseya is a Warden from Last Flight)

[Vigilance97]

^You are my hero.

[Aren]

"Isseya herself had decided long ago that she would become an abomination before she let the darkspawn carry her off to become a broodmother".

(Isseya is a Warden from Last Flight)

Thank you i do not have the last flight, but this answer to the question as for why even GW can become broodmothers

[AresKeith]

Gaider said that Grey Wardens aren't completely sterile, they can have children with non-wardens with difficulty. Two wardens make it next to impossible though.

Going by Hespith's poem, I always assumed there was some kind of ritual gang rape involved.

Though of my theory about the emissary retcon is true, then maybe some sort of blight magic is responsible.

I always assumed it was a combination of blight magic and force feeding them flesh

[CoM Solaufein]

Females in the Wardens? Well someone has to do the cooking.

[In Exile]

I always assumed it was a combination of blight magic and force feeding them flesh

 

The debate is over what "violated" means in the context of the creepy poem. I didn't initially take it to mean rape, either - seeing as the actual process of being turned into a broodmother, the physical change, seems to itself be a violation - but I think it's the more likely use in hindsight.

[ModernAcademic]

Man, why is it that whenever the bad guys catch a woman, the rape theme always rears its ugly head?

 

Like OMG, those guys are so evil they rape women.

 

Seriously? Must women be raped in every f****** fiction, be it video game, TV series, etc?

[Heimdall]

I always assumed it was a combination of blight magic and force feeding them flesh

The corrupted flesh is part of it. It was the combination of these lines that led me to the rape conclusion:

Fifth day, they return and it’s another girl’s turn.
Sixth day, her screams we hear in our dreams.
Seventh day, she grew as in her mouth they spew.
Eighth day, we hate it as she is violated.

It's that "in her mouth they spew" part that describes... Well, you get the idea.

[Heimdall]

Man, why is it that whenever the bad guys catch a woman, the rape theme always rears its ugly head?

Like OMG, those guys are so evil they rape women.

Seriously? Must women be raped in every f****** fiction, be it video game, TV series, etc?

Its been regarded as the worst thing that can be done to a woman since time immemorial, why stop now? It's the quickest way to make any character or creature unquestionably evil.

[actionhero112]

Man, why is it that whenever the bad guys catch a woman, the rape theme always rears its ugly head?

 

Like OMG, those guys are so evil they rape women.

 

Seriously? Must women be raped in every f****** fiction, be it video game, TV series, etc?

 

Opening a dialogue about how horrible rape is is beneficial in many ways.

 

Thematically it's a good representation of corruption, and the taint is all about corruption. It's a beautiful thing made ugly (not the victim, the act itself), one of the ultimate expressions of love twisted and perverted to something bestial and repulsive. 

[AresKeith]

The corrupted flesh is part of it. It was the combination of these lines that led me to the rape conclusion:

Fifth day, they return and it’s another girl’s turn.
Sixth day, her screams we hear in our dreams.
Seventh day, she grew as in her mouth they spew.
Eighth day, we hate it as she is violated.

It's that "in her mouth they spew" part that describes... Well, you get the idea.

I can see how that line can give that idea

[Qun00]

Females in the Wardens? Well someone has to do the cooking.

Can't defeat the archdemon on an empty stomach.

[Abyss108]

Opening a dialogue about how horrible rape is is beneficial in many ways.

 

Sure, but it doesn't do this. If this is what they were trying to do, there would be a perspective from the victim instead "ew now they are a monster". Instead its just a way to show how extra evil the darkspawn is, and is immediately forgotten about after being used an excuse for a gross boss fight. It is completely divorced from any reality of actual rape.

 

The city Elf is a good example of rape being shown. It's shown how it effects a person, and how they recover afterwards. Shianni isn't defined by this, and doesn't exist solely to be a victim, the game shows what she goes on to do. It's an example of rape being shown in terms of how it affects a person, instead of simple shock value. (City Elf has other issues though, in terms of how it portreys the rapists...)

[CardButton]

Sure, but it doesn't do this. If this is what they were trying to do, there would be a perspective from the victim instead "ew now they are a monster". Instead its just a way to show how extra evil the darkspawn is, and is immediately forgotten about after being used an excuse for a gross boss fight. It is completely divorced from any reality of actual rape.

 

The city Elf is a good example of rape being shown. It's shown how it effects a person, and how they recover afterwards. Shianni isn't defined by this, and doesn't exist solely to be a victim, the game shows what she goes on to do. It's an example of rape being shown in terms of how it affects a person, instead of simple shock value. (City Elf has other issues though, in terms of how it portreys the rapists...)

Isn't this kind of what they did with "The Mother" in Dragon Age: Awakening?  I mean, while she ultimately became an Antagonist, the reason for her doing so was a combination of withdrawal from the Calling and her returned self awareness driving her mad due to the realization of what had been to her and the monster she became as a result. 

[Abyss108]

Isn't this kind of what they did with "The Mother" in Dragon Age: Awakening?  I mean, while she ultimately became an Antagonist, the reason for her doing so was a combination of withdrawal from the Calling and her returned self awareness driving her mad due to the realization of what had been to her and the monster she became as a result. 

 

I haven't played Awakening, so I don't know if its handled any better there. I can only comment on how its treated in Origins.

 

If what you say is true, I kinda doubt anything that turns the victim of rape into a literal monster as a direct result is gonna open a good discussion on rape though.