80 réponses à ce sujet

[Qun00]

Can we take this discussion away from Tumblr and return to the matter of Grey Wardens?

[ModernAcademic]

Its been regarded as the worst thing that can be done to a woman since time immemorial, why stop now? It's the quickest way to make any character or creature unquestionably evil.

 

That's the problem right there, friend. Seeing women being violated became something normal in fiction. So people are not shocked anymore.

 

Oh, you wanna know how evil a person is? He raped a woman. He didn't try to kill her in a fair fight. He didn't fire her from her job. Actually, trying to kill her in a fair fight is such a far-fetched thing in our culture that it's considered ridiculous. 

 

When you want to show a woman's personal history of overcoming difficulty, it usually involves surviving rape or severe domestic abuse.

Why must a female character go through rape to be considered a strong survivor or to prove the male is evil? Why not show him trying to kill her in combat, like he'd do against another man? Why always the sexual abuse?

 

Most rape victims commit suicide or let men sexually abuse them repeatedly in the future. This woman+rape equation is harmful to the image of women. It's like every woman is a victim in potential and should live in fear of men. Why, if men and children are also suscetible to be victims? There are countless boys who were raped by adults who live and die carrying their secret to the grave. And some become rapists in turn. But do you see this being shown all the time in fiction? No. So when people see it, they are scandalised. But if it's a woman, then people consider it normal.

 

 

Opening a dialogue about how horrible rape is is beneficial in many ways.

 

Thematically it's a good representation of corruption, and the taint is all about corruption. It's a beautiful thing made ugly (not the victim, the act itself), one of the ultimate expressions of love twisted and perverted to something bestial and repulsive. 

 

I agree. But DA:Origins portrayed the theme of rape in a specific light to shock the players, not to show a different way to analyze the problem and stimulate a constructive debate. Origins was considered a game quite full of gore, after all.

[actionhero112]

 

 

I agree. But DA:Origins portrayed the theme of rape in a specific light to shock the players, not to show a different way to analyze the problem and stimulate a constructive debate. Origins was considered a game quite full of gore, after all.

 

I think what most people take away from Hespith's song and the act of creating broodmothers is that it's a monstrous thing committed by monstrous things. 

 

 I'm hesitant to agree with you that it doesn't encourage a debate as that's self evident by this discussion we are having. I would however, agree that it's not the focus of the game. But I think when you include a taboo theme such as rape it automatically generates discussion on the topic. And any discussion is better than no discussion as is often the case concerning taboos. 

 

I would also agree that the game didn't really bring anything new to the discussion around rape. (Very much presented as a female specific issue, Rapist's characters are just rapists) But any discussion on taboos is beneficial discussion when none is being had in the medium. At the time I don't think any AAA games were being released that dealt with the topic even briefly. 

[Aren]

Every darkspawn is born because of an act of rape....as if they weren't already monsters enough.
Who knows maybe when they infect the old god they rape it too.....
Tough i don't even understand if it is rape or something else, is not that creatures like shrieks have a gender ......they are aliens
The architect is also Dr. Frankenstein since he kidnapped and created the mother in the hope to create more disciples and then she wanted to kill him for revenge.
If the warden kill him from the dialogues she is pretty happy.

[CardButton]

Back on point for a moment Broodmothers and Grey Wardens. 

 

If "Awakening" is any inclination, "the Architect" (which since DA:I I feel pretty safe in the assumption that he actually was an ancient Tevinter Magister.  A High Priest of Urthemiel if I'm remembering correctly) was harvesting Warden blood to free Darkspawn from the Calling and it was his use of that blood on a Broodmother "The Mother" and his subsequent freeing of her self-awareness that caused the chaos in that expansion.  It was warden blood that caused her becoming once again self aware, it would then imply that creating a Broodmother directly from a Warden would produce a similar result.

 

The Darkspawn capturing a young enough female Grey Warden could in theory create a Broodmother out of her (though as her self-awareness would presumably remain intact throughout the transformation, unlike with traditional Broodmothers, and it is somewhat more horrific concept to contemplate), I have a feeling Darkspawn would be instinctively less inclined to do so as it would risk creating a Calling Free Broodmother who could mass produce Calling Free Darkspawn ... which would inherently be a far bigger threat to them than any Grey Warden ever was.  

[German Soldier]

Back on point for a moment Broodmothers and Grey Wardens. 

 

If "Awakening" is any inclination, "the Architect" (which since DA:I I feel pretty safe in the assumption that he actually was an ancient Tevinter Magister.  A High Priest of Urthemiel if I'm remembering correctly) was harvesting Warden blood to free Darkspawn from the Calling and it was his use of that blood on a Broodmother "The Mother" and his subsequent freeing of her self-awareness that caused the chaos in that expansion.  It was warden blood that caused her becoming once again self aware, it would then imply that creating a Broodmother directly from a Warden would produce a similar result.

 

The Darkspawn capturing a young enough female Grey Warden could in theory create a Broodmother out of her (though as her self-awareness would presumably remain intact throughout the transformation, unlike with traditional Broodmothers, and it is somewhat more horrific concept to contemplate), I have a feeling Darkspawn would be instinctively less inclined to do so as it would risk creating a Calling Free Broodmother who could mass produce Calling Free Darkspawn ... which would inherently be a far bigger threat to them than any Grey Warden ever was.  

Agree especially with the first part,a female GW could be in theory not be suitable to become a broodmother but more like The Mother of DAA and maybe the architect didn't awakened her by using GW blood but more likely created her from a female GW!

Ten things like the mother could be in theory be able to reach the same crowd control of 1 archdemon with the difference to be more intelligent than an archdemon and we have an endless blight....

Haven't you noticed how militaristic and intelligent is the Mother  in her tactics in DAA(you alwasy lose something or the fortress or the city)

Maybe because she was a GW maybe one that was with the architect and i fear that Velanna and SHianni will share the same fate....

The architect was preparing Shianni for something....the horror

[MiyuEmi]

I would think that female Grey Wardens would be useless to the Darkspawn, unless I'm not thinking this through.  Grey Warden's have mastered the taint of Darkspawn and thus cannot be corrupted by it.  I think like male Grey Warden's they would just be food.  Can't make more Darkspawn with someone unable to be corrupted by the Blight.

 

All this chat makes me want to play Origins and Awakenings again!

[MissOuJ]

I would think that female Grey Wardens would be useless to the Darkspawn, unless I'm not thinking this through.  Grey Warden's have mastered the taint of Darkspawn and thus cannot be corrupted by it.  I think like male Grey Warden's they would just be food.  Can't make more Darkspawn with someone unable to be corrupted by the Blight.

 

That was my understanding as well.

 

Laryn was forced into eat Darkspawn flesh which corrupted her and turned her into a Broodmother, but since the Wardens can't be corrupted by Darkspawn blood, I don't see how they could be corrupted by their flesh (since there aren't any Warden Ghouls either), and I haven't seen anything in the lore that would suggest otherwise.

[CardButton]

That was my understanding as well.

 

Laryn was forced into eat Darkspawn flesh which corrupted her and turned her into a Broodmother, but since the Wardens can't be corrupted by Darkspawn blood, I don't see how they could be corrupted by their flesh (since there aren't any Warden Ghouls either), and I haven't seen anything in the lore that would suggest otherwise.

The Deeproads are a pretty vast place so presumably even if there were Wardens who became Ghouls we may never actually see one, but that being said ... yeah the only possible way for a Female Warden to become a Broodmother is if they are not completely immune to the taint caused by consumption of Darkspawn flesh (which I guess we don't specifically know they aren't as of yet, it's just a pretty safe bet that they are).    Warden's are immune to Darkspawn blood at least so that is a pretty good inclination that they can't become ghouls or broodmothers.  

 

Besides, even if they weren't and they found themselves in a position where they could be turned into a Ghoul/Broodmother with no hope of escape ... as morbid as it sounds a Warden would probably end their own life through any means left to them before they would ever allow themselves to join the armies of the abominations they've spent their whole lives hunting. 

[In Exile]

That was my understanding as well.

 

Laryn was forced into eat Darkspawn flesh which corrupted her and turned her into a Broodmother, but since the Wardens can't be corrupted by Darkspawn blood, I don't see how they could be corrupted by their flesh (since there aren't any Warden Ghouls either), and I haven't seen anything in the lore that would suggest otherwise.

 

?

The Grey Wardens are all corrupted by the blight. By definition. That's what makes them Grey Wardens - they're all infected. It's just that they take advantage of a blood magic ritual that controls the speed at which the blight spreads - this is why some die immediately in the Joining and the rest become ghouls. They're all tainted, without exception. 

 

The Grey Wardens aren't immune. They're already sick. Can't catch a cold you already have so to speak. 

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Wardens can't be corrupted by Darkspawn blood, I don't see how they could be corrupted by their flesh (since there aren't any Warden Ghouls either), and I haven't seen anything in the lore that would suggest otherwise.

I disagree since we have examples of GW who turned out to be Ghouls like Utha and Larius.

GW are not immune to the taint they just have temporary resistance but once their calling is arrived that is the signal that they are becoming ghouls..they can become broodmothers

[MissOuJ]

?

The Grey Wardens are all corrupted by the blight. By definition. That's what makes them Grey Wardens - they're all infected. It's just that they take advantage of a blood magic ritual that controls the speed at which the blight spreads - this is why some die immediately in the Joining and the rest become ghouls. They're all tainted, without exception. 

 

The Grey Wardens aren't immune. They're already sick. Can't catch a cold you already have so to speak. 

 

Good point, you're absolutely right.

[MiyuEmi]

Good points ie they are already corrupted.  I wonder then why the Dark Spawn never choose to make a Grey Warden a Broodmother?  Or perhaps they have and we just haven't seen one.  There must be a reason that they haven't chosen to take a dark spawn tainted female Grey Warden and use her to make the little terrors.  I would consider that, as a dark spawn, would be preferred.  I mean, the dark spawn come out like toddlers apparently, so whose to say that their broodmother's specific, unique abilities would not be passed down.  I would assume in that case that a Grey Warden would be a preferable host.

 

Still making me want to play DAO and Awakenings! 

[CardButton]

Good points ie they are already corrupted.  I wonder then why the Dark Spawn never choose to make a Grey Warden a Broodmother?  Or perhaps they have and we just haven't seen one.  There must be a reason that they haven't chosen to take a dark spawn tainted female Grey Warden and use her to make the little terrors.  I would consider that, as a dark spawn, would be preferred.  I mean, the dark spawn come out like toddlers apparently, so whose to say that their broodmother's specific, unique abilities would not be passed down.  I would assume in that case that a Grey Warden would be a preferable host.

 

Still making me want to play DAO and Awakenings! 

This is apparently why the wouldn't want female wardens to become broodmothers.  "The Mother" after being freed from the calling by "The Architect" through the use of Grey Warden blood began producing Darkspawn that were extremely resistant to the callings influence.  A Grey Warden, who already has the Grey Warden resistance built in would presumably have this same resistance as well.

 

One of the greatest strengths the Darkspawn have is their connection through the Calling.  When an Archdemon (or presumably a Fallen Magister) is organizing them this sort of Hive-Mind means they do not talk back, they do not disobey orders, they do not get scared, and they will fight to the end.  Going out of their way to produce a Broodmother who then has a will of her own (and who's spawn would also have a will of their own) is really not in their best interest ... because the next time a Blight is ready to occur they would be completely unreliable, or a downright threat. 

[Big I]

The Grey Wardens probably still let/expect women to go on their Calling. You can sentence Ser Ruth in DA:I to the Calling, and part of Sigrun's plot in DA:A was about her sending herself on her Calling because she felt guilty about being the only Legion survivor of Kal Hirol. That's just the southern Wardens though, other Warden chapters could decide differently.

[Lazengan]

Of course it's counterproductive, especially for an extremely high risk special operations group like the Grey Wardens. 

 

sending your  breeders to the front line doesn't work and isn't remotely logical in any feasible situation. 

 

There is even an IN-UNIVERSE reason as to why we shouldn't send women to fight darkspawn, because they will be captured and turned into broodmothers

 

But this is Bioware and the leftist narrative, where a strong woman shows her strength by being like men and fighting.

 

Because you know, there aren't any other ways in which women can be powerful at all right?

[CardButton]

Of course it's counterproductive, especially for an extremely high risk special operations group like the Grey Wardens. 

 

sending your  breeders to the front line doesn't work and isn't remotely logical in any feasible situation. 

 

There is even an IN-UNIVERSE reason as to why we shouldn't send women to fight darkspawn, because they will be captured and turned into broodmothers

 

But this is Bioware and the leftist narrative, where a strong woman shows her strength by being like men and fighting.

 

Because you know, there aren't any other ways in which women can be powerful at all right?

... just wow.

 

Lets ignore all the female characters that have been exhibited in Bioware games that show their strength without combat for a moment and focus on the Grey Warden thing as it is the core focus of this thread.  It's honestly up in the air as the whether a female Grey Warden can be turned into a Broodmother and even if they could it's been exhibited in "Awakening" in a pretty apparent way why the Darkspawn would never want to create a Broodmother out of a female Warden as Grey Warden blood was used to separate an already existing Broodmother from the calling; allowing her to start mass producing Darkspawn that were resistant to the very corruption that binds them together and controls them.  But lets assume even then that the Darkspawn would insist on creating a Broodmother out of a female Warden ... there is absolutely nothing stopping that Warden from killing themselves rather than being violated and turned in such a horrific way.  Even if they were bound and all their weapons removed, biting through one's tongue may not be the most pleasant way to go, but its certainly effective as a last resort and far better than the alternative.  Does anyone in this thread actually believe that any Warden (male or female) wouldn't gladly end their own life rather than become the very thing they've spent their whole life fighting?  

 

Also this is a world of magic and monsters where a person can have the ability to rip the blood out of another person with a snap of their fingers, or control them the same way ... perhaps that is one of the reasons the people of Thedas are a little less sensitive about the females in a combat role thing?  Plus, their Jesus figure was a female warlord battle priest and half of the Elven Pantheon is female, of which two are very combat-centric: Mythal (the great protector and goddess of justice) and Andruil (known as "blood and force" and the goddess of the hunt) ... I'm sure neither of these factors played much of a role at all in how the societies of Thedas view gender dynamics in reference to physical combat. 

 

As for this whole "leftist narrative" thing you seem to have an issue with ... welcome to a Bioware game?  They've always been this way, it is certainly nothing new and they are not going to retcon the the setting of their own world just to placate to some apparent "right wing" sensibilities. 

[Lazengan]

 

As for this whole "leftist narrative" thing you seem to have an issue with ... welcome to a Bioware game?  They've always been this way, it is certainly nothing new and they are not going to retcon the the setting of their own world just to placate to some apparent "right wing" sensibilities. 

 

I have no issue with their narrative, I just apply logic and common sense in the way I view things. But video games really aren't the place to shove your political agenda onto people.

 

Female artists want to design female characters in bikinis and fight looking like that? awesome, do it. Females can participate in male activities due to in-universe justifications and mechanics? Do it. I'm not complaining, no straight male would; this is fiction, do what you want. 

 

But if we want to go logic for logic argument, this is what I think. 

 

Also just because I have a certain opinion doesn't mean I'm a "right-wing" or have "right-wing" views. 

[Mistic]

 

I disagree since we have examples of GW who turned out to be Ghouls like Utha and Larius.

GW are not immune to the taint they just have temporary resistance but once their calling is arrived that is the signal that they are becoming ghouls..they can become broodmothers

 

 

However, as Ghouls, those Grey Wardens exhibited a high degree of autonomy and independence, practically going against what any Archdemon would have wanted. So maybe CardButton's theory that GW women make for very bad broodmothers (in the sense that they might become broodmothers, but they will be too independent and their children will be too unruly) isn't far-fetched.

[CardButton]

I have no issue with their narrative, I just apply logic and common sense in the way I view things. But video games really aren't the place to shove your political agenda onto people.

 

Female artists want to design female characters in bikinis and fight looking like that? awesome, do it. Females can participate in male activities due to in-universe justifications and mechanics? Do it. I'm not complaining, no straight male would; this is fiction, do what you want. 

 

But if we want to go logic for logic argument, this is what I think. 

 

Also just because I have a certain opinion doesn't mean I'm a "right-wing" or have "right-wing" views. 

Sorry I assumed.    

 

But yes, there is quite a few reasons why female warriors in the setting of Thedas make sense in the setting of Thedas.  

[Illegitimus]

Man, why is it that whenever the bad guys catch a woman, the rape theme always rears its ugly head?

 

 

Because really it's pretty routine unless you have rather chivalrous or very nonhumanoid bad guys.  So that's the wrong question.  The right question is "When the bad guys catch a man, why does rape never rear its head?"

 

 

That's the problem right there, friend. Seeing women being violated became something normal in fiction. So people are not shocked anymore.

 

 

Sez you.  That was the part of the whole series that can be truly said to have shocked me.  And no, those two responses aren't mutually contradictory.  

[Donquijote and 59 others]

The Grey Wardens probably still let/expect women to go on their Calling. You can sentence Ser Ruth in DA:I to the Calling, and part of Sigrun's plot in DA:A was about her sending herself on her Calling because she felt guilty about being the only Legion survivor of Kal Hirol. That's just the southern Wardens though, other Warden chapters could decide differently.

Yes and they are morons for wanting to send women to the darkspawn.....it does not make sense 

[Donquijote and 59 others]

However, as Ghouls, those Grey Wardens exhibited a high degree of autonomy and independence, practically going against what any Archdemon would have wanted. So maybe CardButton's theory that GW women make for very bad broodmothers (in the sense that they might become broodmothers, but they will be too independent and their children will be too unruly) isn't far-fetched.

If you are referring to Utha you need to take into account that she was with the Architect for the whole time,and who knows what the Architect did to her,exactly like Shianni they were both on the same mental state and SHiann was not even a GW.

If you are referring to Larius he was locked into a prison full of magical selas with another magister like The architect near him.

Those two examples are not well suited for the argumentation.

[CardButton]

 

Because really it's pretty routine unless you have rather chivalrous or very nonhumanoid bad guys.  So that's the wrong question.  The right question is "When the bad guys catch a man, why does rape never rear its head?"

 

Actually we don't really know that the darkspawn don't rape males ... its just they would turn into ghouls in the end.  The broodmothers are just a lot more apparent (considering they become Giant Tenticle Monster, Ant-Queen style ghouls) so they get a bit more attention.

 

For all we know the Darkspawn do rape their male captives. 

[Heimdall]

Because really it's pretty routine unless you have rather chivalrous or very nonhumanoid bad guys. So that's the wrong question. The right question is "When the bad guys catch a man, why does rape never rear its head?"

In general? It does, just not as often.

Darkspawn probably don't because they rape for reproductive purposes.