82 réponses à ce sujet

[The Baconer]

Totally disagree.

 

Even catapults and trebuchets would make "Annulments" unnecessary - except that they're purposefully trying to keep the architecture and the knowledge.  They could have lobbed trebuchets ammunition across Lake Calenhad to destroy the tower without even thinking about whether or not a mage was going to toss a fireball.

 

Mages can't throw fireballs the same distance as ancient siege weaponry, forget anything as advanced as a cannon.

 

The Qunari dreadnought is painfully laughable in it's bombardment distance.  That it comes anywhere near the shore is an indictment of the whole questline.

 

Remember, DA mages are nowhere near "wizards" (in fact, they're some of the mentally stupidest casters I've ever seen represented) and have none of the magic that make most fantasy wizards actually dangerous.  They're really just medium range IEDs or mobile healbots (and healing magic is very difficult in real DA lore)

 

With "firearms", I was referring to handheld weapons. Siege weaponry and artillery are a different matter, but even then I still don't think their function makes them an equalizer per se. I just don't see many scenarios in which cannons and siege weaponry serve as an explicit counter to mages, no more or less than they "counter" anything else that lives and breathes. As you said, the context in which Annulments are carried out make artillery completely unsuitable in all but the most dire circumstances. Engagements that are specifically mage vs. nonmage don't really occur in settings where artillery can be effectively applied. 

 

On the subject of range, the comics have depicted mages casting spells at ranges significantly further than what is possible in the games. There is also a codex on blood magic that also notes a specific battle in which a mage killed Dreadnought crewmembers from the shore. It is likely that mages have a longer effective range in the lore, or that Qunari guns have a shorter range than what was conventional for real-life cannons of the relevant period. Or it could be both. 

[Dai Grepher]

To add on to that last piece, Orzammar making bank off of selling gunpowder to the surface means the Carta is also making bank. The rigidity of the Dwarven caste system is actually what allows the Carta to thrive. I can see a small number of individuals being spiteful enough to try and strike back at Orzammar's society, but overall the Carta really doesn't have anything to gain in helping the Qunari. 

 

I don't understand your reasoning. The Qunari would assess their skills, assign them to roles, mate them accordingly, and keep them safe. As is the case with all who join the Qun. The only ones I see baulking at that would be those who truly believe in the Stone, or those who enjoy committing crimes. In which case, the Qunari simply would not use those dwarves to help them infiltrate. There are more than enough carta and other casteless who are sick of living hand to mouth. Nadezda helped the Warden against Jarvia for only the hope of a few silvers.

[The Baconer]

I don't understand your reasoning. The Qunari would assess their skills, assign them to roles, mate them accordingly, and keep them safe. As is the case with all who join the Qun. The only ones I see baulking at that would be those who truly believe in the Stone, or those who enjoy committing crimes. In which case, the Qunari simply would not use those dwarves to help them infiltrate. There are more than enough carta and other casteless who are sick of living hand to mouth. Nadezda helped the Warden against Jarvia for only the hope of a few silvers.

 

The ones who integrate into Qunari society on the surface, yes. But the Qunari aren't going out of pocket to keep Orzammar afloat with food and bodies to throw at the Darkspawn. Those with potential for the Qun would be dragged into the light, and the Qunari would be better off to just bury everything else with Gaatlok. Assuming the Qunari could even conquer the Dwarves while everyone else watched. 

[Dai Grepher]

If that were so, then wouldn't it apply to the human lands as well, such as Tevinter? The Qunari go wherever there are bas to be converted. And the Darkspawn are an antithesis to all life, including the Qun. If the Qunari are a metaphor for a body, the taint is the epitome of illness and infection. It is corruption of the self, the opposite of mastery. It is destruction of purpose. You think the Qunari would just ignore that? Bury it for future generations to fight against in greater numbers? I think they would prefer to fight them underground rather than on the surface, and the best way to fight them is to reestablish the thaigs and reinforce them. Qunari advance on enemies, they only give up ground if they are killed for it.

[Mistic]

I don't understand your reasoning. The Qunari would assess their skills, assign them to roles, mate them accordingly, and keep them safe. As is the case with all who join the Qun. The only ones I see baulking at that would be those who truly believe in the Stone, or those who enjoy committing crimes. In which case, the Qunari simply would not use those dwarves to help them infiltrate. There are more than enough carta and other casteless who are sick of living hand to mouth. Nadezda helped the Warden against Jarvia for only the hope of a few silvers.

 

If that were enough to subvert Orzammar's social balance, Tevinter would have fallen centuries ago, having slavery and probably the most hated ruling group in the continent. Yet it hasn't. There are many people who don't want that kind of "safety", there are many who sincerely believe in their religion and crime lords would be the first to stop any attempt at putting a yoke on them. The Carta may be willing to sell people, technology, information and illegal substances, but it would be jarring for them to support a foreign, totalitarian regime that is more dangerous to their business than the nobles' half-hearted attempts to keep them under control.

 

Because remember: although many casteless join the Carta's ranks, not everyone in the Carta is casteless. And they are not a socially conscious group, but a criminal enterprise.

[The Baconer]

If that were so, then wouldn't it apply to the human lands as well, such as Tevinter? 

 

No. Notice where Tevinter is in relation to the Qunari, and compare that with Orzammar. 

 

 

And the Darkspawn are an antithesis to all life, including the Qun. If the Qunari are a metaphor for a body, the taint is the epitome of illness and infection. It is corruption of the self, the opposite of mastery. It is destruction of purpose. You think the Qunari would just ignore that? Bury it for future generations to fight against in greater numbers? I think they would prefer to fight them underground rather than on the surface, and the best way to fight them is to reestablish the thaigs and reinforce them. Qunari advance on enemies, they only give up ground if they are killed for it.

 

The Qunari are not so heinously stupid as to throw themselves at Darkspawn to gain... pretty much nothing. Orzammar isn't even self-sufficient, their Lyrium and enchantments do not interest the Qunari like they do everyone else, which makes it pretty untenable for the oxmen. They'd also be doing a great courtesy for the likes of Tevinter and Orlais by graciously spreading themselves thin in the Deep Roads. 

[Dai Grepher]

If that were enough to subvert Orzammar's social balance, Tevinter would have fallen centuries ago, having slavery and probably the most hated ruling group in the continent. Yet it hasn't. There are many people who don't want that kind of "safety", there are many who sincerely believe in their religion and crime lords would be the first to stop any attempt at putting a yoke on them. The Carta may be willing to sell people, technology, information and illegal substances, but it would be jarring for them to support a foreign, totalitarian regime that is more dangerous to their business than the nobles' half-hearted attempts to keep them under control.

 

Because remember: although many casteless join the Carta's ranks, not everyone in the Carta is casteless. And they are not a socially conscious group, but a criminal enterprise.

 

But Tevinter is engaged in a war with Par Vollen. They have their society locked down tight, and slaves have no power there except in rare circumstances like Calpernia. Any slave or soporotti who gets out doesn't want to just go back into slavery. They want to overthrow the magisterium and improve Tevinter for themselves. Orzammar on the other hand is not engaged in a war with Par Vollen, and while their territories are secure against direct assault, the carta and other castles are the "backdoor".
 

All you need are a few dwarves haunted by the prospect of their entire race dying out altogether in order to start an infiltration plan. And the castles are mostly ignored by the noble and warrior castes. It would be easy to infiltrate right under their noses.

 

Even if 100% of the carta and other casteless were criminal, how many of them would understand the Qunari's true objectives? How many would see their support as an opportunity to enrich themselves, like Javaris, only to find out too late they've been had?

 

They are a criminal enterprise that can change leaders at any time. It would be a simple matter to send Tallis after any carta leader who did not accept the Qunari's offer, and then institute a Ben-Hassrath dwarf as the new leader.

[Ashagar]

If it was that easy the Qunari would have done it centuries ago.

[Dai Grepher]

No. Notice where Tevinter is in relation to the Qunari, and compare that with Orzammar. 

 

The Qunari are not so heinously stupid as to throw themselves at Darkspawn to gain... pretty much nothing. Orzammar isn't even self-sufficient, their Lyrium and enchantments do not interest the Qunari like they do everyone else, which makes it pretty untenable for the oxmen. They'd also be doing a great courtesy for the likes of Tevinter and Orlais by graciously spreading themselves thin in the Deep Roads. 

 

And yet aren't you the same Baconer who thinks Dragon's Breath was a legitimate operation even though Ferelden and Orlais are just as far away from Par Vollen as Orzammar is?

 

Pretty much nothing? They would gain the Deep Roads! The Deep Roads connect to all countries. Think of it. They would be able to move entire armies underground without anyone knowing. They could invade from underneath and inside. Vigil's Keep fell easily because of this tactic.

 

You point out the fact that the surface is interested in lyrium, yet you overlook its significance. Tevinter is interested most of all. Why? So they can strengthen their magic. So what if the kabethari suddenly found their lyrium supply cut off because of Qunari forces in the Deep Roads?

 

Spreading themselves thin? Again, you think Dragon's Breath was legit. Who thin would they have been if they had conquered Orlais and Ferelden? But the Deep Roads are not expansive lands. They are a series of tight tunnels. The Qunari could fortify the tunnels easily with their weaponry, and create new vantage points with gaatlok.

[Dai Grepher]

If it was that easy the Qunari would have done it centuries ago.

 

Unless they didn't think of it until recently. Or maybe they didn't have the resources back then.
 

[The Baconer]

And yet aren't you the same Baconer who thinks Dragon's Breath was a legitimate operation even though Ferelden and Orlais are just as far away from Par Vollen as Orzammar is?

 

Spreading themselves thin? Again, you think Dragon's Breath was legit. Who thin would they have been if they had conquered Orlais and Ferelden? But the Deep Roads are not expansive lands. They are a series of tight tunnels. The Qunari could fortify the tunnels easily with their weaponry, and create new vantage points with gaatlok.

 

Dragon's Breath was meant to prevent southern Thedas from mounting organized resistance, utilizing the Eluvians in addition. Diving into Orzammar has absolutely no contingency in place for that. Though, it does not surprise me that you would equate the two. 

 

 

Pretty much nothing? They would gain the Deep Roads! The Deep Roads connect to all countries. Think of it. They would be able to move entire armies underground without anyone knowing. They could invade from underneath and inside. Vigil's Keep fell easily because of this tactic.

 

Sure, they only have to evict the largest army that exists in Thedas first. 

 

 

You point out the fact that the surface is interested in lyrium, yet you overlook its significance. Tevinter is interested most of all. Why? So they can strengthen their magic. So what if the kabethari suddenly found their lyrium supply cut off because of Qunari forces in the Deep Roads?

 

It's asinine and self-defeating. Conquering Orzammar and securing the Deep Roads to prepare for an invasion of Tevinter is nonsensical... because it is exponentially more difficult and resource-intensive than just conventionally beating Tevinter into submission. 

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Gaatlok: How long before the secret is out?

 

Who cares?

It seems to me that Anders is pretty good at  it as well...and my Hawke as his  bomb recepie

[Dai Grepher]

Dragon's Breath was meant to prevent southern Thedas from mounting organized resistance, utilizing the Eluvians in addition. Diving into Orzammar has absolutely no contingency in place for that. Though, it does not surprise me that you would equate the two. 

 

Sure, they only have to evict the largest army that exists in Thedas first. 

 

It's asinine and self-defeating. Conquering Orzammar and securing the Deep Roads to prepare for an invasion of Tevinter is nonsensical... because it is exponentially more difficult and resource-intensive than just conventionally beating Tevinter into submission. 

 

But your original point was about location, not logistics. I was refuting the point that the Qunari don't care about Orzammar because "Notice where Tevinter is in relation to the Qunari, and compare that with Orzammar". Orzammar would require different logistics, certainly, but location shouldn't be an issue to the Qunari if you believed it wasn't in the case of Dragon's Breath.

 

And what army would that be exactly?

 

But Orzammar has to be taken eventually anyway, right? For the Qun? And if taking the Deep Roads makes invasion of other countries easier, then why not do that first? The Qunari have been trying to beat Tevinter into submission for ages, and have not succeeded so far. A change of tactics is called for.

[Ashagar]

Because they would likely have better luck trying take on the Kossith on to regain their original homeland or declaring total war on every country on the continent than invading the deep roads that are filled with the nice unending hordes of corruption and mindless evil that are the darkspwawn?

[The Baconer]

But your original point was about location, not logistics. I was refuting the point that the Qunari don't care about Orzammar because "Notice where Tevinter is in relation to the Qunari, and compare that with Orzammar". Orzammar would require different logistics, certainly, but location shouldn't be an issue to the Qunari if you believed it wasn't in the case of Dragon's Breath.

 

No, we're not going to pretend that location is not a factor in logistics. 

 

 

And what army would that be exactly?

 

No, we're not going to feign ignorance of the Darkspawn issue. 

 

 

But Orzammar has to be taken eventually anyway, right? For the Qun?

 

Yeah, and the Kocari Wilds? Why haven't they invaded the Kocari Wilds? They should do that tomorrow. 

 

 

And if taking the Deep Roads makes invasion of other countries easier, then why not do that first? 

 

Because taking the Deep Roads is not actually an easier way of invading other countries. It is, emphatically, more difficult. 

[Mistic]

But Tevinter is engaged in a war with Par Vollen. They have their society locked down tight, and slaves have no power there except in rare circumstances like Calpernia. Any slave or soporotti who gets out doesn't want to just go back into slavery. They want to overthrow the magisterium and improve Tevinter for themselves. Orzammar on the other hand is not engaged in a war with Par Vollen, and while their territories are secure against direct assault, the carta and other castles are the "backdoor".

 

All you need are a few dwarves haunted by the prospect of their entire race dying out altogether in order to start an infiltration plan. And the castles are mostly ignored by the noble and warrior castes. It would be easy to infiltrate right under their noses.

 

So, are you really telling me that it's difficult for Tevinter to fall despite being in open war with Par Vollen, and having a good deal of slaves actively conspiring to overthrow the Magisters, yet for the same reason it's easy for Orzammar to fall despite being on the other side of the continent and having a stable regime that has endured more than any other current Thedosian society?

 

Not to mention that Orzammar is a close friend of practically every Andrastian nation in the world, from Tevinter to Orlais. Tevinter always had the drawback of being hated by the other Andrastian nations, but Orzammar is, at least, a good trade partner and the only source of lyrium. You bet Orlais or Ferelden will help Orzammar against Qunari trying to cut them off from the lyrium trade.

 

And remember that casteless aren't exactly ignored. They are marked for life, they are barred from performing most jobs (including that of servants), and from time to time (as seen in DA:O) the rulers tend to crack down on the criminal elements to earn some popularity points when they get cocky.

 

Even if 100% of the carta and other casteless were criminal, how many of them would understand the Qunari's true objectives? How many would see their support as an opportunity to enrich themselves, like Javaris, only to find out too late they've been had?

 

They are a criminal enterprise that can change leaders at any time. It would be a simple matter to send Tallis after any carta leader who did not accept the Qunari's offer, and then institute a Ben-Hassrath dwarf as the new leader.

 

Those are more sensible suggestions, if only because it doesn't expect the Carta to be the spearhead of a revolutionary movement by their own volition.

 

And don't sell criminals too short. Remember that one of the main actors in the Qunari Wars was the confederation of pirates known as the Felicisima Armada, who banded together for the first time precisely to stop the Qunari from destroying their piracy business.

[Arvaarad]

To add on to that last piece, Orzammar making bank off of selling gunpowder to the surface means the Carta is also making bank. The rigidity of the Dwarven caste system is actually what allows the Carta to thrive. I can see a small number of individuals being spiteful enough to try and strike back at Orzammar's society, but overall the Carta really doesn't have anything to gain in helping the Qunari. 

 

In theory, all the Qunari would need is a small number of people, just enough to take out a couple targets. Once they wipe out the few people who've learned the recipe, the dwarves would back to square one on gaatlok.

 

I agree that they'd be unlikely to risk the blowback of a full-scale assault. The question is not "would the Qunari march on Orzammar to deal with a recipe leak?" (they wouldn't) the question is really "how many dwarves are confident that won't happen?" People aren't too good at estimating risk when the potential consequences are high. The dwarves are fortified against darkspawn, but even awakened darkspawn don't have the coordination of a Qunari force. If the Qunari attacked the dwarves, they would be capable of annihilating their culture. Perhaps many dwarves could survive by scattering into older thaigs, but their society and way of life would be damaged for years.

 

If Tevinter or the southern Chantry got ahold of the gaatlok recipe, they might be less afraid of the risk. The humans are more spread out, so it's easier for them to be confident that the Qunari aren't an existential threat. They'd be a bit more behind on the chemistry, but I can definitely imagine Orlesian scholars getting on the task.

 

With enough recipe leaks, I think the leakers would eventually find someone who correctly estimates the risk. In fact, I would guess that leaks are going to happen soon, maybe even in DA4. Or maybe a leak has happened already, and production is ramping in secret. The games have been setting the gaatlok thread up for a while. But I think it will take a couple recipe leaks before the recipe seller evades the Ben-Hassrath long enough to find a buyer. And it may take a couple more buyers before someone is able to produce it in quantity.

[Indomito]

If the Qunari attacks Orzamar, all other nations in Thedas will declare war on them. Lyrium it´s too important. And the dwarves are more difficult to infiltrate, i think. 

The formula for Gaatlok it´s not discover yet only for gameplay reasons. The Qunari will eventually be defeated if the other nations aquire that formula. 

[Mistic]

With enough recipe leaks, I think the leakers would eventually find someone who correctly estimates the risk. In fact, I would guess that leaks are going to happen soon, maybe even in DA4. Or maybe a leak has happened already, and production is ramping in secret. The games have been setting the gaatlok thread up for a while.

 

Who knows, maybe we'll be able to see it in DA4. Much has been said about the dwarves and Orzammar, but frankly, I think Tevinter is a far more interesting scenario.

 

On the one hand, I can see a nation that is in constant war with the Qunari trying to close the gap between their enemies and them, and it would mirror how the Qunari are learning to use mages as military assets. On the other hand, I also can see some rulers of the magocracy obstructing the path to preserve the superiority mages have in the battlefield. You can almost see the dialogue wheel forcing the protagonist to make a choice.

[AFA]

It is a long road from artillery to handheld weapons, let alone handheld weapons that are worth a damn. Gunpowder was relatively common in the Middle Ages, using it for anything practical was a different matter. Most artillery of that era was more likely to kill the gun crew than anyone it was pointed at.

 

Pillar of Eternity, essentially set in a fantasy colonial Americas, does a good job of mixing early firearms with magic, armor, swords, bows, etc. You get maybe two shots in a minute, and that is with perks

[diaspora2k5]

I don't think Gaatlok is that easy to acquire even with a recipe. Don't you need a live poisonous dragon to pull it off?

[The Baconer]

I don't think Gaatlok is that easy to acquire even with a recipe. Don't you need a live poisonous dragon to pull it off?

 

The dragon venom was a substitute for a different ingredient, meant to speed up the process. 

[PapaCharlie9]

Am I the only one that thinks it's kind of silly to worry about a chemical explosive when mages can rain meteors from the sky, rogues can turn invisible and kill with toxic clouds, warriors can become invulnerable to all damage, etc.,etc. ...

 

The Qunari are welcome to their secret. Who needs it?

[Lazengan]

Early firearms were garbage. Short ranged, inaccurate, extremely slow to reload.

 

Native Americans evenly matched early European settlers in ranged combat,

 

And why do we need gunpowder when there are flasks that FREEZE TIME that are readily available on the market?

[Ashagar]

The early European colonists were also armed with steel weaponry, swords and polearms of various types mostly as well as steel armor, they also brought along crossbows, regular bows and in the case of the English longbows. As I had noted gunpowder came onto the scene in Europe in the 13th century and didn't magically make castles, knights and armor obsolete by existing but instead existed along side all of them for centuries.