210 réponses à ce sujet

[Dai Grepher]

... So how is Leiliana bigoted? I really really hate her for numerous reasons, but I just can't see it. She makes changes to the order she is in charge of, which is her right. Someone has to make the decisions, and you can't make everyone agree. They decided to put Leiliana in charge.

 

She doesn't go around to people in different orders or different races and force them to follow her point of view. She doesn't make people convert, or tell them they are wrong. She doesn't look down on other people who disagree with her.

 

Which group is she supposed to unfairly hate here?

 

She isn't in charge of the Chantry as Divine. The Chantry is the people's order. The Divine is their servant. She should be operating for the good of the people, not to institute her own ideals at the protest of the very people she is supposed to be giving guidance to. That's no different from Lucius and the templars, or the Inquisitor and the Inquisition in the minds of Ferelden nobles during Trespasser.

 

You can't make everyone agree. Exactly. But Leliana responds by killing the ones who don't agree. Or at her best she talks them down without making any concessions to them. And in the middle of these she stands back and lets them rip each other apart. Leliana's reign heavy indicates a future rise of protestant denominations.

 

Well good for her not acting like a Qunari. But she will still tell people they are wrong if they don't agree with her ideas or methods. She does look down on them, or worse. Like if you tell her that you don't support her ideas, she will say that she is glad it isn't up to you then.

 

You're asking what group is the target of her bigotry? The Chantry traditionalists, and the people who want to keep mages separated from society so as to protect people from magic and mages from angry mobs and demons.

[Abyss108]

She isn't in charge of the Chantry as Divine. The Chantry is the people's order. The Divine is their servant. She should be operating for the good of the people, not to institute her own ideals at the protest of the very people she is supposed to be giving guidance to. That's no different from Lucius and the templars, or the Inquisitor and the Inquisition in the minds of Ferelden nobles during Trespasser.

 

You can't make everyone agree. Exactly. But Leliana responds by killing the ones who don't agree. Or at her best she talks them down without making any concessions to them. And in the middle of these she stands back and lets them rip each other apart. Leliana's reign heavy indicates a future rise of protestant denominations.

 

Well good for her not acting like a Qunari. But she will still tell people they are wrong if they don't agree with her ideas or methods. She does look down on them, or worse. Like if you tell her that you don't support her ideas, she will say that she is glad it isn't up to you then.

 

You're asking what group is the target of her bigotry? The Chantry traditionalists, and the people who want to keep mages separated from society so as to protect people from magic and mages from angry mobs and demons.

 

None of this meets the definition of bigoted to me. She's a zealot and a terrible person, and kills people that don't agree with her, and I'm certainly not defending anything she does, but she doesn't do any of it out of bigotry.

 

It's not a hatred or intolerance to people that don't share her views. She kills to keep power, not out of intolerance. She doesn't kill random strangers that don't agree with her, she doesn't go out hunting Dalish Elves for their heathen religion. That's what a bigot what do. She just kills to gain power for herself.

[Dai Grepher]

I didn't realize we could play a 15y old Inquisitor.

 

More like 18, since the Warrior/Rogue Trevelyan is going in to the Chantry as an initiate. Or perhaps 20, which I think was Alistair's age in Origins. And he was conscripted about 6 months before Ostagar. So maybe 19 or 20 is when a warrior starts taking lyrium as a templar. But you may have started at 15, but the game picks up later. A mage Trevelyan can be young or old, since even firstborn Trevelyan cannot inherit if he's a mage.

 

Maybe the Dalish one has some flexibility. But Lanaya was young in Origins. So a Dalish mage would be about the same age as above, 18 to 20. I suppose a warrior or rogue could be of any age, but then again, why send an older member of the clan when there are younger ones just as capable of surveillance?

 

The carta dwarf could be of any age, but runs into the same problem as above. Why send an old one when a younger one is more capable?

 

The Vashoth qunari is the only one who is supposed to be older. You are the leader of your own band of mercs, and you have a history with another group prior to that in which you made a name for yourself. That takes time.

[Dai Grepher]

"I support teh gaiz as long as I don't have to see them and they keep themselves separate from the rest of society. But I'm all for them. Oh, and seeing two men kiss would physically make me sick."

Good to know, thanks for sharing.

 

That's unfair of you. He clearly wrote nothing of the sort. And he can't help how it makes him feel personally.

[Dai Grepher]

None of this meets the definition of bigoted to me. She's a zealot and a terrible person, and kills people that don't agree with her, and I'm certainly not defending anything she does, but she doesn't do any of it out of bigotry.

 

It's not a hatred or intolerance to people that don't share her views. She kills to keep power, not out of intolerance. She doesn't kill random strangers that don't agree with her, she doesn't go out hunting Dalish Elves for their heathen religion. That's what a bigot what do. She just kills to gain power for herself.

 

Well it meets the actual definition of the word, so yeah. She does not tolerate those who disagree with her beliefs on what the Chantry should do or preach. She's a bigot.

 

She kills to silence opposition to her agenda. She doesn't need to keep power, since she was elected for life.

 

Her bigotry is just limited in scope. Would you say that a woman who targets the clergy for violence isn't a bigot simply because she doesn't target all those of the Catholic religion?

[Abyss108]

More like 18, since the Warrior/Rogue Trevelyan is going in to the Chantry as an initiate. Or perhaps 20, which I think was Alistair's age in Origins. And he was conscripted about 6 months before Ostagar. So maybe 19 or 20 is when a warrior starts taking lyrium as a templar. But you may have started at 15, but the game picks up later. A mage Trevelyan can be young or old, since even firstborn Trevelyan cannot inherit if he's a mage.

 

Maybe the Dalish one has some flexibility. But Lanaya was young in Origins. So a Dalish mage would be about the same age as above, 18 to 20. I suppose a warrior or rogue could be of any age, but then again, why send an older member of the clan when there are younger ones just as capable of surveillance?

 

The carta dwarf could be of any age, but runs into the same problem as above. Why send an old one when a younger one is more capable?

 

The Vashoth qunari is the only one who is supposed to be older. You are the leader of your own band of mercs, and you have a history with another group prior to that in which you made a name for yourself. That takes time.

 

No, Dalish mage's remain as their's clans First until the Keeper either dies or steps down. Most Keepers are very old, so a Dalish Elf could be at least middle aged without any issues here. It makes sense to choose any older Elf, as they are going as a spy into a hostile situation. It needs to be someone with experience interacting with humans, and someone that is mature enough for the Keeper to trust. Not some headstrong youth who could get into any kind of trouble if they get caught.

 

There's no reason to specifically choose a younger Dwarf either. This is a very important and volatile situation, there's no reason to assume they will send a random nobody they can't trust.

 

Not sure what the human background says, so can't comment on that.

 

Well it meets the actual definition of the word, so yeah. She does not tolerate those who disagree with her beliefs on what the Chantry should do or preach. She's a bigot.

 

She kills to silence opposition to her agenda. She doesn't need to keep power, since she was elected for life.

 

Her bigotry is just limited in scope. Would you say that a woman who targets the clergy for violence isn't a bigot simply because she doesn't target all those of the Catholic religion?

 

Depends whether she killed those members just because she hated them and targeted anyone with views that disagreed with her, or just those that disagreed with her and had the power to be a threat to her power.

 

Leiliana does need to keep power since there is a rebellion against her in the epilogues, and other Divines in the past have been killed or removed.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I didn't realize we could play a 15y old Inquisitor.

You can't. Bioware says the Inquisitor is in an indeterminate age range between 20 and 40 years old. 

[Dai Grepher]

No, Dalish mage's remain as their's clans First until the Keeper either dies or steps down. Most Keepers are very old, so a Dalish Elf could be at least middle aged without any issues here. It makes sense to choose any older Elf, as they are going as a spy into a hostile situation. It needs to be someone with experience interacting with humans, and someone that is mature enough for the Keeper to trust. Not some headstrong youth who could get into any kind of trouble if they get caught.

 

There's no reason to specifically choose a younger Dwarf either. This is a very important and volatile situation, there's no reason to assume they will send a random nobody they can't trust.

 

Not sure what the human background says, so can't comment on that.

 

 

Depends whether she killed those members just because she hated them and targeted anyone with views that disagreed with her, or just those that disagreed with her and had the power to be a threat to her power.

 

Leiliana does need to keep power since there is a rebellion against her in the epilogues, and other Divines in the past have been killed or removed.

 

Okay. And since a young or old elf or dwarf can realistically be played, I guess its a moot point.

 

Human Warrior/Rogue states that you are the youngest child of the Trevelyans and were expected to join the Chantry. But if you are a mage it instead states that you were expected to spend your whole life in the Circle. So the Warrior/Rogue should be around 18, while the mage could be any age.

 

Well, that's kind of the same thing. Being able to resist her plans is the point of her killing them. So what if she were to allow powerless people to disagree with her as she forced her will on them? That still makes her a bigot. If this was all about power, then she should have targeted all those who had power that could threaten her regardless if they agreed with her or not.

 

There is resistance against her because she is a bigot. Had she done her job properly there would have been no resistance. You're excusing her actions based on problems she faces necessarily because of her actions.

[Realmzmaster]

A better solution would be to have the possible romances bisexual instead of straight  only or gay only. This worked for Leliana and Zevran in DA:O. I think its pretty damn sad when I had to invent Chasha as a straight gay for romancing a nutty female Elf in DA:I. 

 

Why couldn't Sera be bisexual like Josephine? Easy to do with no extra production cost.

 

 

Tidus romances Josie since he's not to fond of Cassie. There no "Stockholm syndrome"  between those two.

 

You do know that most of the companions in DA2 were player sexual and posters still complained about that. Those complainers wanted the way the LIs were done in DAO.

[AlanC9]

No, it's silly to say that the game encourages dishonesty, therefore Josephine isn't being dishonest by playing dishonestly.

Didn't write that it did. That's why I gave examples of her dishonesty in other contexts.

But why did you bring up Wicked Grace in the first place if you knew that the incident didn't mean anything relevant?

[AlanC9]

Human Warrior/Rogue states that you are the youngest child of the Trevelyans and were expected to join the Chantry. But if you are a mage it instead states that you were expected to spend your whole life in the Circle. So the Warrior/Rogue should be around 18, while the mage could be any age.

I'm not sure that age 18 is required. It's certainly possible to join a bit later in life; we know of several characters who did. And the writers had no intention of making the backgrounds age-restrictive.

[Abyss108]

Okay. And since a young or old elf or dwarf can realistically be played, I guess its a moot point.

 

Human Warrior/Rogue states that you are the youngest child of the Trevelyans and were expected to join the Chantry. But if you are a mage it instead states that you were expected to spend your whole life in the Circle. So the Warrior/Rogue should be around 18, while the mage could be any age.

 

Well, that's kind of the same thing. Being able to resist her plans is the point of her killing them. So what if she were to allow powerless people to disagree with her as she forced her will on them? That still makes her a bigot. If this was all about power, then she should have targeted all those who had power that could threaten her regardless if they agreed with her or not.

 

There is resistance against her because she is a bigot. Had she done her job properly there would have been no resistance. You're excusing her actions based on problems she faces necessarily because of her actions.

 

Okay. And since a young or old elf or dwarf can realistically be played, I guess its a moot point.

 

Human Warrior/Rogue states that you are the youngest child of the Trevelyans and were expected to join the Chantry. But if you are a mage it instead states that you were expected to spend your whole life in the Circle. So the Warrior/Rogue should be around 18, while the mage could be any age.

 

Well, that's kind of the same thing. Being able to resist her plans is the point of her killing them. So what if she were to allow powerless people to disagree with her as she forced her will on them? That still makes her a bigot. If this was all about power, then she should have targeted all those who had power that could threaten her regardless if they agreed with her or not.

 

There is resistance against her because she is a bigot. Had she done her job properly there would have been no resistance. You're excusing her actions based on problems she faces necessarily because of her actions.

 

No she doesn't force her views on anyone that doesn't threaten her. When did she force the Dalish or the Dwarves to convert? When did she force non-Andrastian humans to convert?

 

There will always be resistance to any kind of change whether it's for the better or worse.

[Dai Grepher]

But why did you bring up Wicked Grace in the first place if you knew that the incident didn't mean anything relevant?

 

When did I write that it didn't mean anything relevant? Sure being dishonest while playing Wicked Grace doesn't indicate anything about her in other contexts, but it is still an example of her being dishonest in that context. The original point being, she rigged the game in favor of the romanced Inquisitor and then congratulated him on winning as though he did it through skill. Doubly dishonest.

[Dai Grepher]

I'm not sure that age 18 is required. It's certainly possible to join a bit later in life; we know of several characters who did. And the writers had no intention of making the backgrounds age-restrictive.

 

It probably isn't required, but the backstory implies that it should be the case logically. We know of other characters who did, but they all had different backstories from the human warrior/rogue.

[Dai Grepher]

No she doesn't force her views on anyone that doesn't threaten her. When did she force the Dalish or the Dwarves to convert? When did she force non-Andrastian humans to convert?

 

There will always be resistance to any kind of change whether it's for the better or worse.

 

Okay, so you're telling me that if a bunch of Chantry mothers refused to obey Leliana's edict, Leliana would simply allow them to defy her because they have no power to overthrow her?

 

She doesn't need to force conversion to be a bigot.

 

And instead of offering some concessions to those people she just runs over them.
 

[Abyss108]

Okay, so you're telling me that if a bunch of Chantry mothers refused to obey Leliana's edict, Leliana would simply allow them to defy her because they have no power to overthrow her?

 

She doesn't need to force conversion to be a bigot.

 

And instead of offering some concessions to those people she just runs over them.
 

 

They have to obey her, that's their job, to follow the Chantry, which is led by Leiliana. That's like saying my boss at work is a bigot because he decides what work I do and sometimes overules me when he disagrees about the best way to do that work.

[In Exile]

When did I write that it didn't mean anything relevant? Sure being dishonest while playing Wicked Grace doesn't indicate anything about her in other contexts, but it is still an example of her being dishonest in that context. The original point being, she rigged the game in favor of the romanced Inquisitor and then congratulated him on winning as though he did it through skill. Doubly dishonest.

 

The point of Wicked Grace is to be dishonest, though. You're kind of missing the point of the scene while getting it. There's a reason the characters who are shown to be good at it in game are all varying degrees of liars - Varric, Isabella, etc. It's manipulative, but that's different from just being dishonest. 

[Dai Grepher]

They have to obey her, that's their job, to follow the Chantry, which is led by Leiliana. That's like saying my boss at work is a bigot because he decides what work I do and sometimes overules me when he disagrees about the best way to do that work.

 

Their job is to follow the Chant of Light. If it was "their job" to obey the Divine no matter how radical her ideas, then how is it that Chantry officials resist her at all? No, your example is irrelevant. Your boss pays you money in exchange for your cooperation. The Divine is a figurehead who is supposed to fill a role, not be a dictator.

[Dai Grepher]

The point of Wicked Grace is to be dishonest, though. You're kind of missing the point of the scene while getting it. There's a reason the characters who are shown to be good at it in game are all varying degrees of liars - Varric, Isabella, etc. It's manipulative, but that's different from just being dishonest. 

 

Well, in all fairness, dishonesty is one way to play Wicked Grace. Not the only way. So even in that context it shows Josephine's methods. And regardless of what is best in the situation, dishonesty is dishonesty. It's an example of her being dishonest, and rigging it to make the romanced Inquisitor win is another example. Agree with her or don't, but how she chose to play it shows that she was dishonest in that situation.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Is there any evidence that she rigged the game, and not just that Bioware decided to create a different scenario for an Inquisitor romancing her like they've done in other scenes in DAI and other games?

[Nic Mercy]

Well, I didn't want to say it like this, but I feel really upset by male homosexual scenes. It has nothing to do with my beliefs or my expectations on gay people, I honestly support their freedom IRL, but at the same time I don't want to see them doing it. Not because I think it's unclean or anything, I just don't like the sight of it. I tend to look away if there is a gay scene in a movie.
And I expect there would be at least a kiss in the Dorian romance and that would possibly give me cramps.

Please understand I DO NOT hate gays or anything like that.

 

Not for nothing, as a gay man myself, even I can understand this. Many people gay and straight aren't big on public displays of affection. It can be quite uncomfortable to see two people vigorously making out in public regardless of their sex. With that said, I think this uncomfortableness is exacerbated even more for some straight individuals when viewing members of their own sex engaging in intimacy because its generally foreign to them. Seeing two members of the opposite sex being intimate is less off putting for them because that's the sex they prefer to be intimate with themselves.

 

Think of average vanilla porn viewing habits. Strictly straight men will typically enjoy hetero porn and lesbian porn but have absolutely no interest in gay male porn because there's nothing of interest there for them. On the other hand a strictly gay male can typically enjoy hetero porn and gay male porn because both of those at least have males in them whereas the lesbian porn has nothing of interest for them. Obviously individual porn will vary on its focus of which sex but generally speaking that's about how it works.

 

Translating that to public displays of affection, it's the same thing. The strictly straight male sees no appeal from two men kissing but would probably appreciate if it was two women. Of course any sort of PDA can be off putting to anyone (regardless of sex and orientation) if its too excessive and lingering.

 

With that said seeing two people who haven't seen each other for some time kiss at an airport or just two people (regardless of sex) holding hands as they walk down the street, is a perfectly acceptable PDA in my opinion. Still, we must accommodate and respect each other to a point in a civilized world. So keeping the PDA's in good taste and to a minimum is just good manners in my book.

[Arshei]

You can't. Bioware says the Inquisitor is in an indeterminate age range between 20 and 40 years old. 

 

My inqui is 40 years old but she looks like 20 ♥

[Dai Grepher]

Is there any evidence that she rigged the game, and not just that Bioware decided to create a different scenario for an Inquisitor romancing her like they've done in other scenes in DAI and other games?

 

Meta-evidence. If you don't romance her, she always wins. If you romance her, you win the whole pot.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Meta-evidence. If you don't romance her, she always wins. If you romance her, you win the whole pot.

So no evidence.

[daveliam]

Not for nothing, as a gay man myself, even I can understand this.

 

<snip>

 

Meh.  I can understand it to a degree.  I have no sexual attraction nor interest in seeing two lesbians have sex with each other.  Hell, I have no interest in seeing a straight couple have sex with each other. 

 

But I wouldn't have to "turn my head" if it came on and I certainly wouldn't have a physiological reaction to it, like the poster you quoted said he would have.  That seems a little ridiculous to me.  Seeing two lesbians in a Bioware romance scene wouldn't be the end of the world for me.  I have little concern for people who have such over-the-top reactions to the very idea of two guys doing some dry humping (really the extent of what you see in Bioware sex scenes) and maybe seeing a guy's ass.