133 réponses à ce sujet

[9TailsFox]

Deus Ex Machina apparently now means plot element that was introduced at the start of a work but not sufficiently foreshadowed in ME1's codex. 

Are you telling crucible is not Deus ex Machina. Meaning "god from the machine". The term has evolved to mean a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object. Depending on how it is done, it can be intended to move the story forward when the writer has "painted himself into a corner" and sees no other way out, to surprise the audience, to bring the tale to a happy ending, or as a comedic device. 

Crucible is literary is Deus Ex Machina. Star child is god, reapers are his Angels. The fact that we can build it don't change it.

[The Baconer]

ME2 is a reboot, in the sense that if you have had an alternative ME2 about Shepard starting up and running his own red sand drug cartel it would've had as much to do with ME1 and the overarching plot as the one we got, which is to say, absolutely nothing.

 

Noooope. 

[Seboist]

Are you telling crucible is not Deus ex Machina. Meaning "god from the machine". The term has evolved to mean a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object. Depending on how it is done, it can be intended to move the story forward when the writer has "painted himself into a corner" and sees no other way out, to surprise the audience, to bring the tale to a happy ending, or as a comedic device. 

Crucible is literary is Deus Ex Machina. Star child is god, reapers are his Angels. The fact that we can build it don't change it.

Yep, the Derpcible is a DEM, as without it(and plot induced reaper retardation) ME3 would only last two hours,ending with a reaper victory after they've taken the citadel early on if they followed the lore.

[StringerBell]

ME2 is a reboot, in the sense that if you have had an alternative ME2 about Shepard starting up and running his own red sand drug cartel it would've had as much to do with ME1 and the overarching plot as the one we got, which is to say, absolutely nothing.

Hmmm Mass Effect meets "Narcos" that has potential, "John Emilio Escobar Shepard" has a nice ring to it

[Seboist]

Hmmm Mass Effect meets "Narcos" that has potential, "John Emilio Escobar Shepard" has a nice ring to it

Could be some neat C&C in it, like if C-Sec were to catch you moving product on the citadel, you can choose to bribe them with some of your red sand drug money or start blasting. There could even be a "war assets" system where you manage mules, drug frigates, orbital drug labs,etc.

[Gothfather]

or if they somehow incorporate the happy ending mod

 

I hate that fraking mod with a passion. That mod is proof why fans shouldn't be developers. (referring to the content of the mod not the quality of the work behind it just to be clear.) Boo hoo a mature title that didn't end with rainbows and unicorns. I would argue that if anything the mass effect series needed more tragedy and fewer "I win" button results that save everyone. Not a single severing member of your crew can die post ME2 prologue unless you take deliberate "fail" results and people think the game isn't happy enough?

[ZipZap2000]

Star child is god, reapers are his Angels.

Indoctrination is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds...The Reapers resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions....A Reapers suggestions can manipulate the victim into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe....

Long term physical effects of manipulation are unsustainable, higher mental function decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal.

[Gothfather]

Are you telling crucible is not Deus ex Machina. Meaning "god from the machine". The term has evolved to mean a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object. Depending on how it is done, it can be intended to move the story forward when the writer has "painted himself into a corner" and sees no other way out, to surprise the audience, to bring the tale to a happy ending, or as a comedic device. 

Crucible is literary is Deus Ex Machina. Star child is god, reapers are his Angels. The fact that we can build it don't change it.

No it wasn't.

 

It isn't an UNEXPECTED power or event, the crucible and the catalyst are all foreshadowed well in advance for them to be Deus ex Machina. Is it a contrived ending but it is not by any DEFINITION Deus ex Machina because it is foreshadowed. The fact that the star child can be an analogy for a god and the reapers the angle of this god doesn't make it Deus ex Machina. Divinity isn't at all at the heart of Deus ex machina.  

 

Even the method of discovery is a well established FACT in the series. Knowledge from a previous cycle reaching the next though artefacts. The introduction of the star child shouldn't have been a shock to people. The game has eluded to since ME1 that the citadel was more than it seemed and that something was working behind the scenes to make the station run, that was introduced with the keeper side quests.

 

Was the star child poorly introduced? yes the game should never have shipped without the Leviathan content as that was vital to explain the whole story. The endings were also poorly implemented but not because of star brat but because none of your choices in the game mattered to the ending. The endings were truly a pick your favourite flavour/colour poof game over. But nothing about the crucible qualifies it for Deus ex Machina.  

[SardaukarElite]

Are you telling crucible is not Deus ex Machina. Meaning "god from the machine". The term has evolved to mean a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object. Depending on how it is done, it can be intended to move the story forward when the writer has "painted himself into a corner" and sees no other way out, to surprise the audience, to bring the tale to a happy ending, or as a comedic device. 

Crucible is literary is Deus Ex Machina. Star child is god, reapers are his Angels. The fact that we can build it don't change it.

 

Yes, I am telling you the Crucible is not a Deus Ex Machina. The clue is in your own quote. "(...)is suddenly and abruptly resolved".

 

Deus Ex Machina refers to Gods being winched onto stage at the last second without any foreshadowing, and magically solving the problem. The Crucible was introduced in the second level of ME3, you spend the whole game trying to build it. Hackett repeatedly tells you we need to build the Crucible and nobody knows what it will do. Even if you take the view that the ME trilogy is one story then the Crucible is introduced at the beginning of Act 3. 

[AlanC9]

Are you telling crucible is not Deus ex Machina. Meaning "god from the machine". The term has evolved to mean a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object. Depending on how it is done, it can be intended to move the story forward when the writer has "painted himself into a corner" and sees no other way out, to surprise the audience, to bring the tale to a happy ending, or as a comedic device.
Crucible is literary is Deus Ex Machina. Star child is god, reapers are his Angels. The fact that we can build it don't change it.

The suddenly and abruptly part isn't true, of course. And the god and angels bit is just babble.

But you knew that already, right?

[Iakus]

The suddenly and abruptly part isn't true, of course.

Except it is.

 

The earliest hint that something like the Catalyst might exist comes from Vendetta on Thessia.  It is otherwise something entirely out of left field and renders ME1's ending a complete WTF.

[Iakus]

I hate that fraking mod with a passion. That mod is proof why fans shouldn't be developers. (referring to the content of the mod not the quality of the work behind it just to be clear.) Boo hoo a mature title that didn't end with rainbows and unicorns. I would argue that if anything the mass effect series needed more tragedy and fewer "I win" button results that save everyone. Not a single severing member of your crew can die post ME2 prologue unless you take deliberate "fail" results and people think the game isn't happy enough?

Yeah we can't have an outcome where the protagonist can clearly survive without becoming a mass murderer that makes Saren look like an absolute angel.  We need "feelz" and "bittersweet" and deep concepts, no matter how nonsensical they are.

 

"Get the job done and go home"?  Totally not "artistic" 

 

 

Dark=/="mature"

[echoness]

I'm in fresh start club.

[AlanC9]

Except it is.

The earliest hint that something like the Catalyst might exist comes from Vendetta on Thessia. It is otherwise something entirely out of left field and renders ME1's ending a complete WTF.

We were talking about the Crucible, not the Catalyst.

I suppose you can make a case for the Catalyst being a DEM fir the last-minute problem of the Crucible not firing, FWIW. It's not a solution to anything else.

[Iakus]

We were talking about the Crucible, not the Catalyst.

I suppose you can make a case for the Catalyst being a DEM fir the last-minute problem of the Crucible not firing, FWIW. It's not a solution to anything else.

Well, the Catalyst is a rather vital part of the Crucible is it not? WIthout it we just have a giant magic wand that doesn't actually do anything.

 

Bu if you want to talk about the whole superweapon, then taking the trilogy as a whole, the Crucible is still something of a DEM.  It comes from practically out of thin air (the "small data cache" on Mars suddenly has blueprints to a superweapon that remained conveniently unnoticed until the very enemies it was designed to stop begin invading) And Shepard spent a third of the trilogy doing everything but looking for a way to stop the Reapers.

 

Given the entire game is devoted towards building the miraculous weapon that will of course save us all even though we have no idea where it came from, what it does, or how to use it (we're all proving how advanced this cycle is by following directions by rote.  Yay for the hairless apes!)   One can make an argument that perhaps "MacGuffin" also fits.  But the manner in which it is activated has definite DEM properties to it.  

 

Or perhaps Diabolous Ex Machina

[slimgrin]

Just watching people argue the mess that became of the story is all the proof needed. Total reboot, nothing less. 

[Remix-General Aetius]

We need a dislike button.

[9TailsFox]

The suddenly and abruptly part isn't true, of course. And the god and angels bit is just babble.

But you knew that already, right?

Suddenly and abruptly not true? I don't even know what to say if you think ME3 is perfectly expected and logical. Space magic capable of affecting galaxy (100,000–120,000 light-years diameter) On genetic level. And "We kill you to save you" Yes this first think I would expect. 

 

Yes and babble is correct. ME full of biblical motives, and fits perfect theme rebelling against creators. It's all over place, Shepard, Legion, Eva, Sovergain real  name is Nazar (to dedicate, devote oneself, consecrate, separate). Shepard die and is brought back from the dead by Cerberus guardian of underworld.  First think Shepard go to purgatory. You need more.

[avenging_teabag]

Yes, I am telling you the Crucible is not a Deus Ex Machina. The clue is in your own quote. "(...)is suddenly and abruptly resolved".

 

Deus Ex Machina refers to Gods being winched onto stage at the last second without any foreshadowing, and magically solving the problem. The Crucible was introduced in the second level of ME3, you spend the whole game trying to build it. Hackett repeatedly tells you we need to build the Crucible and nobody knows what it will do. Even if you take the view that the ME trilogy is one story then the Crucible is introduced at the beginning of Act 3. 

The Crucible is literally a DEM in the context of the entire trilogy and the Reaper invasion plot. The fact that that some people refuse to see that, boggles the mind.

 

I also cast my vote in favor of a clean reboot. Narratively speaking, the ME trilogy is unsalvageable garbage.

[avenging_teabag]

Yep, the Derpcible is a DEM, as without it(and plot induced reaper retardation) ME3 would only last two hours,ending with a reaper victory after they've taken the citadel early on if they followed the lore.

No kidding, that was the most infuriating thing for me in that entire mess: why TF are the reapers not taking the Citadel as soon as they invade and instead are derping about chasing Shepard around some irrelevant systems? Take the Citadel, turn off the mass relays and the war is won. But no. Everyone is a terminal retard in that goddamn mess of a plot. Everyone.

 

Ugh. Why am I even thinking about that again?

[SardaukarElite]

The Crucible is literally a DEM in the context of the entire trilogy and the Reaper invasion plot. The fact that that some people refuse to see that, boggles the mind.

 

If the Crucible was literally a Deus Ex Machina it would be a crane or a platform used to deliver an actor playing a god to the stage of a Greek tragedy or comedy.

 

Figuratively a Deus Ex Machina is, as has been mentioned, an abrupt and unexpected resolution to a hopeless problem. The Crucible is neither abrupt nor unexpected, you know about it from the start, spend the game building it, and the spending the ending moving it into position.

 

The Crucible is a normal plot device, that's introduced, built on, and used when ready. The issue is that when we get to the resolution it's weird, goes against the trilogy and basically isn't cool. 

[Helios969]

Who cares if the Crucible was or wasn't a DEM, it was moronic in it's application.

[avenging_teabag]

If the Crucible was literally a Deus Ex Machina it would be a crane or a platform used to deliver an actor playing a god to the stage of a Greek tragedy or comedy.

 

Figuratively a Deus Ex Machina is, as has been mentioned, an abrupt and unexpected resolution to a hopeless problem. The Crucible is neither abrupt nor unexpected, you know about it from the start, spend the game building it, and the spending the ending moving it into position.

 

The Crucible is a normal plot device, that's introduced, built on, and used when ready. The issue is that when we get to the resolution it's weird, goes against the trilogy and basically isn't cool. 

a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty (http://www.merriam-w...eus ex machina)

 

Correct, the Crucible is a plot device, it's also a Deus Ex Machina, which is is introduced suddenly, without any kind of foreshadowing or effort on the hero's part, and used to unexpectedly solve a previously unsolvable problem (the reaper invasion). The best parallel I can think of would be for, say, Sam Tarly in A Song of Ice and Fire to suddenly find a perfect solution for the White Walkers' invasion, despite no hints to such solution existing in any of the previous books.

 

Like I said, boggles the mind that people still refuse to call a spade a spade.

[wright1978]

If the Crucible was literally a Deus Ex Machina it would be a crane or a platform used to deliver an actor playing a god to the stage of a Greek tragedy or comedy.

 

Figuratively a Deus Ex Machina is, as has been mentioned, an abrupt and unexpected resolution to a hopeless problem. The Crucible is neither abrupt nor unexpected, you know about it from the start, spend the game building it, and the spending the ending moving it into position.

 

The Crucible is a normal plot device, that's introduced, built on, and used when ready. The issue is that when we get to the resolution it's weird, goes against the trilogy and basically isn't cool. 

 

The brat is the Deus ex machina

[Linkenski]

I'm not the only one upset with how ME3 ended up. Not just about the ending. Why I want a clean break from ME1-3 plot wise. Unless they retcon part 3 as a bad dream...

I'd rather they retcon or simply ignore the **** out of 3 than continue to justify its existence with retroactive additions and apology content. That's the problem about ME:A being a continuation. I fear they'll try to make it like the Leviathan DLC but as a full game.

 

Regarding the Crucible... it's on the border I feel. It's introduced with a really big contrivance, but is really a MacGuffin hinting at becoming a DEM until it does become a DEM at the ending.

 

I've thought about it and while I really wish the Crucible would've been introduced in a less contrived way the big problem is a logistical one. If we simply discovered some artifacts and slowly learned it might be used as a superweapon we're too late into the game and the building process becomes unbelievable whereas because it's introduced so early in the game, it's easier to swallow that it gets built over the course of the plot. I do think, however they should've downplayed the "It might win the war!" idea because it's just hard to see how this device would conveniently target Reapers and be the end of the Reapers when there's so many.

 

They should've probably just said "It might be a huge military asset, we have to build it" but really, this is in nitpicking territory, I realize. I just wish the writing had more subtlety about it, but the execution is still decent in itself.

 

I don't think the Crucible ruined the game, either way. That would be the intro and ending and game-design related things that did that, but we'll see what Andromeda does with the IP.

 

If it tries to continue Mass Effect 3's disasterous bookend it may already lose the willing suspension of disbelief for thousands of fans, that's all I really have to say.