21 réponses à ce sujet

[ACzeMiky]

Hi, so while playing Dragon Age Inquisition I run into one question after another which really drives me crazy... I hate these complicated stories because I have to think about it more than actually play it. Nevermind. My questions are:

 

1) How didn't wardens know that the demon bound ritual is an obvious trap? They hear the calling and from nowhere some venatori guy appears and wants them to sacrifice themselves so they can control the demons to destroy the blight once and for all... Pretty suspicious. I just don't see a reason why would Grey Wardens cooperate especially when they saw that their mage fellows are obviously brainwashed after the ritual...

 

2) How did they keep the rift opened in Adamant fortress? When you meet Erimond for the first time when he is doing that "testing" ritual the rift just spits out a demon and disappear. First I thought that with that ritual you will just summon some demons. But in Adamant fortress the warden mages literally open a new rift... Then what the hell is the meaning of Anchor when you can open the rift with blood magic? Why would Corypheus need it if there is another way to open the rift? 

 

Thank you guys.

[Riot Inducer]

1.) From my understanding it really was a case of the Warden's wholesale panicking, the calling is after all a sign of impending death/ghoul-ification, and I do think it was as simple as that. Do remember that the Wardens do have a history of allowing use of things like blood magic and demon summoning if it is for the greater good. That kind of sums up the Wardens in total, the ends really do justify the means for them.

 

My main issue was from the sheer logistics of it. Thinking about the plan for more than a few seconds one has to wonder just how the actual hell they thought they could find and defeat the TWO remaining arch demons before the calling claimed them. The deep roads are MASSIVE spreading under the majority of Thedas. It takes the entirety of the dakrspawn CENTURIES to find and unearth an archdemon. To accomplish that in the limited time the Wardens thought they had the demon summoning would have to produce hundreds if not thousands of demons for each warden sacrificed if it was going to be the sort of force multiplier they would need to comb the Deep Roads.

 

2.) The rifts open periodically on their own, as is mentioned elsewhere in game. Demons can come through the rifts but from my understanding the anchor is needed for a mortal to pass through one. As for it conveniently popping out demons right when they were ready to do the ritual I'd guess that all the demons bound by the wardens were underlings for the fear demon as such they only came through the rifts when commanded. 

[nightscrawl]

1 Not sure if you've played the previous games, particularly Dragon Age: Origins as that deals more directly with the Grey Wardens, but the whole mindset of the GW is that they will do ANYTHING to stop the Blight. This means resorting to blood magic, demons, and so on. Yes, I DO agree that the Wardens were portrayed as rather stupid in this game. However, the writers did try to get across that they let their desperation blind them to the reality of the situation, and in fact you can remark such as the Inquisitor on a few occasions.

 

ALL of the Wardens across Orlais started hearing this (fake) calling. But instead of questioning why they were all hearing it, they immediately get it into their heads that this means the end of the Wardens, the protectors of Thedas, and they throw everything behind a desperate attempt to stop the Blights once and for all.

 

It fails logic. I completely agree there. But no one has ever claimed that they were acting rationally in DAI. The very basis of the manipulation assured that rationality was not a factor.

 

2  Riot Inducer above has the right of it. The Anchor is needed for Corypheus to pass through, just like the Inquisitor and companions were only able to fall into the Fade because of the Anchor in that instance.

[Krypplingz]

1) Because of plot and stuff. I think the venatori let the panic of every single warden in the area hearing the Calling sink a bit in before contacting the wardens.

 

So it would be like : the Calling starts -> wardens panic -> they start looking for the reason or a solution -> Erimond comes and tells them that he heard of the problem and wants to help (because even Tevinter can see the problem of having no wardens for the next blight) -> They brainstorm some ideas -> Erimond suggest that instead of waiting for the Calling to take them, the Wardens should just hunt down the last three (?) old gods and end them before the darkspawn find them -> The wardens aren't that strong -> They brainstorm about who would be that strong -> Erimond suggest demons, it's a risky plan but time is not on their side -> They argue about it (Warden friend leaves in a huff) -> They decide it is the best course of action and put the plan in motion. 

 

As for the brainwashing, I think it looked a lot more subtle when Erimond did it in front of Clarel. When he shows you it he's surrounded by already brainwashed wardens, he thinks Cory present will kill you and he wants to make you feel some despair before you die. So when he did it in front of Clarel then he just skipped the whole "Wardens hands up" display. 

 

2) Blood magic weakens the veil and can create a small tear that allows one or two demons to slip through, which is the little rift that Erimond created. 

It can also be weakened so much that it tears open and stays that way, like in Adamant fortress. If you played Awakening you should remember the veil tears in the Blackmarsh. So in theory, any mage can open a tear in the veil, they just can't enter through it without being disintegrated. That's where the Anchor comes in, probably working like a space suit, protecting you from the pressure/energy. 

[ACzeMiky]

Thank you all guys now that make sense. So if I get it right the mages actually can open the rifts but they cant go into them or seal them without the anchor.

And to the ritual. Do you think the other wardens knew their fellows are brainwashed and controlled? Yet still willing to do the ritual? 

[Krypplingz]

Thank you all guys now that make sense. So if I get it right the mages actually can open the rifts but they cant go into them or seal them without the anchor.

And to the ritual. Do you think the other wardens knew their fellows are brainwashed and controlled? Yet still willing to do the ritual? 

 

Well wardens are supposed to have that sexy grim, stoic appeal  serious and respectable attitude. I suppose Erimond told the warden mages to calm their minds, empty themselves of all those manipulative emotions and act in a serious manner before summoning the demon (since otherwise the demon might turn around and say "Lol you're mine now!"), then after they have summoned the demon Erimond makes them give the excuse that they must continue to act in this machine-like manner so that the demon cannot turn on them and possess their minds. Thus hiding the brainwashing behind a magical excuse. 

As for the red flash in their eyes, it is a blood magic ritual, those tend to have a lot of stabbing, blood and bright lights. And the wardens are known to have glowing blue lights when they act in trailers and such. So it might just be normal eye flashing. 

 

Some of the wardens might have suspected something was off, but kept quiet and went along with it because of peer pressure and so the other wardens wouldn't accuse them of trying to abandon their duties. I also suspect the venetori did alot of background manipulations to keep the panic going and force the wardens into a group mentality state of mind. 

[nightscrawl]

Thank you all guys now that make sense. So if I get it right the mages actually can open the rifts but they cant go into them or seal them without the anchor.

And to the ritual. Do you think the other wardens knew their fellows are brainwashed and controlled? Yet still willing to do the ritual? 

 

The mages can open the rifts, but it still takes a great deal of power.

 

There are codex entries in Adamant that show the non-mage Wardens, even Clarel who is a mage herself, becoming suspicious of their mage Warden brethren's behavior. In fact, one of the lines you can say as Inquisitor during the confrontation scene remarks on this, "You're being used. And some of you know it, don't you?"

 

So the Wardens are not completely oblivious, they're just so mentally focused on the ultimate goal that they're willing to let some things slide, regardless of how off they seem. And yes, some of the mage Wardens were willing participants because of the attitude that Wardens have regarding "whatever it takes."

[thats1evildude]

It just goes to show, people will up and go mad when they think their life is over.

-The Walking Dead

[Master Warder Z_]

It just goes to show, people will up and go mad when they think their life is over.

-The Walking Dead

 

[ACzeMiky]

Now I have another question. How did Florianne opened the rift in winter palace? There weren't any mages or sacrifice...

[Iakus]

Now I have another question. How did Florianne opened the rift in winter palace? There weren't any mages or sacrifice...

Florianne isn't a mage, but there were Venatori present at eh Winter Palace. 

 

Or the rift was already there, like the ones scattered everywhere else.

[vbibbi]

Yeah the mechanics behind rifts in DAI weren't well explained/executed. They seem to contradict previous lore, such as the rifts that Justice is able to close in the Blackmarsh, and how mages are able to open rifts, but then apparently can't close them? So the Anchor is the only thing that can close rifts. Except for Justice. And if the Veil weakens by lots of violence and bloodshed, how do any areas in Thedas continue to exist without demonic influence? I think Starkhaven was a major battle in one of the older Blights, yet it still exists. And in the Last Flight novel, Antiva City was razed while during a Blight, yet it still exists now.

 

 

And while the mission of ending Blights through any means necessary is the Wardens' motto, the sheer level of idiocy required for their actions in DAI is annoying. So...all Wardens hear the Calling at the same time and no one questions how suspicious that is, considering it has never happened in the history of their order? And when a Tevinter magister shows up with a solution, they accept it, instead of wondering if he was somehow involved with this Calling?

 

Sure, they are panicking at the thought of leaving the world defenseless against Blights, but once the initial shock of a mass Calling has faded, did they just decide not to try and investigate rather than commit mass suicide?

[ACzeMiky]

Yap I forgot on those Venatory... 
So once again if I understand it correct. The mages can open the rifts themselves so the "sacrifice" of warden warriors were there only to kill them because they couldn't be controlled like warden mages. And the demons are already controlled by the fear demon who is an ally of Corypheus so the "wardens controlling the demons" thing was a lie too just to convince grey wardens to do the ritual ...

 

EDIT: When I think about it the fear demon wasn't killed so he could still make a demon army for Cory, co why did Stroud said "With the nightmare demon banished corypheus lost both his wardens and demon army"? 

[Carmen_Willow]

My main issue was from the sheer logistics of it. Thinking about the plan for more than a few seconds one has to wonder just how the actual hell they thought they could find and defeat the TWO remaining arch demons before the calling claimed them. The deep roads are MASSIVE spreading under the majority of Thedas. It takes the entirety of the dakrspawn CENTURIES to find and unearth an archdemon. To accomplish that in the limited time the Wardens thought they had the demon summoning would have to produce hundreds if not thousands of demons for each warden sacrificed if it was going to be the sort of force multiplier they would need to comb the Deep Roads.

 

It was hinted in an earlier game that the Wardens have a Map and know where the other two archdemons probably are located. And yeah, you have to wonder why they just didn't grab every Warden in Thedas and go after them, but....

[Gervaise]

There is another illogical part and that is, if you are going after the arch demons wouldn't it make sense to get down into the Deep Roads and then summon the demons?  What is the point of bringing them through on the surface?   It would be different if darkspawn were pouring onto the surface.   In fact it is odd that they aren't considering that back in Legacy it was said that Cory attracted them to him in much the same way that Wardens or arch demons do.   It is not something he can control (or at least it wasn't back then), they are attracted to him because of the taint.  Anyway, given that he doesn't automatically attract darkspawn to him, the few that are running around the Western Approach are pretty much normal for the area, considering there is a huge rift down into the Deep Roads, which is why they built Adamant there in the first place (Rhys and his party are attacked by darkspawn in Asunder), plus the opening that the Venatori made in the old ruin which accidentally allowed them access to the surface.   So there is not any reason why the Grey Wardens should think raising their demon army on the surface is a good idea.

 

Also, of course, the answer to everyone hearing the Calling should be to contact HQ and start recruiting like mad.   Plus the Wardens knew that Cory had gone from his prison and since they imprisoned him in the first place for a reason, I should imagine they were aware he couldn't be killed.   They also knew he was dangerous to Grey Warden mages in particular.    Clarel knows about Corypheus because she recognises the name.   There was sufficient time from when Hawke breached his prison to the events of DAI for matters to have been reported to HQ and for them to advise every Warden in Thedas to be on their guard and inform them why he is so dangerous. 

 

Another odd part about the answer to their Calling is to raise a demon army.   If using demons to fight for you is such a good idea, why haven't they tried doing that in previous Blights?    Surely having an army at your disposal that doesn't get tired and can't be affected by the taint would be ideal, particularly as you wouldn't have to bother with all that sucking up to local nobility in order to get them to supply forces to you.  Yet that would seem to be the one thing they hadn't tried doing.   So now, when there isn't actually a Blight happening and so really no need to panic, suddenly they think they have no alternative but to listen to the advice of some random Tevinter mage.

[Reznore57]

 

Another odd part about the answer to their Calling is to raise a demon army.   If using demons to fight for you is such a good idea, why haven't they tried doing that in previous Blights?    Surely having an army at your disposal that doesn't get tired and can't be affected by the taint would be ideal, particularly as you wouldn't have to bother with all that sucking up to local nobility in order to get them to supply forces to you.  Yet that would seem to be the one thing they hadn't tried doing.   So now, when there isn't actually a Blight happening and so really no need to panic, suddenly they think they have no alternative but to listen to the advice of some random Tevinter mage.

 

It was a stupid plan plain and simple , yes you can do stupid things when desperate but come on.

There is TWO archdemons left , no blight on the horizon , the wardens hear the calling but they don't know what the hell is going on.

They decide they are all going to die , before checking out the wardens in the north are also hearing it.They weren't ...

But anyway they decide with no proof that all wardens everywhere are going to die in a couple of weeks/months.

There is no Blight but they also decide they are the last wardens and must take down the archdemons no matter the cost ASAP.

 

Basically they heard the Calling and jump to conclusion  the apocalypse was just around the corner.

It's kinda bad but I can at least understand the "Something very wrong is going on" gutfeeling they had.

 

Thing is on top of that , they trust a random Tevinter mage who happens to be there with some kind of plan.

Now if it were me at this point I'd be paranoid , the calling is weird and the mage is weird.

Then the marvellous plan...and this is where I don't understand how we're supposed to keep a straight face.

So the plan:

The warden warriors will kill themselves (brillant!) the mages will then use their blood to summon a demon army.Remember the wardens are freaking out because they think they are about to die ...but dying for some blood magic spell?Sure.

Now let's look at our demon army.You need to keep those under control at any cost , so it means the mages have to keep watch and be in control.

Now those mages and demons will need to go to the Deep Roads for a very long period of time , it takes hundred of years for darkspawn to dig up an Archdemon (and there's two left , not at the same place!)So they need to survive the Deep Road , face down a massive horde of darkspawn , not loose control of the demons , dig a lot , then kill an untained Old God (nobody has ever done that before so who knows what would happen) oh and also survive that Calling for months and then they need to do it a second time ...

For this very very stupid plan to have an actual chance to work they'd also need to get in touch with wardens elsewhere so those can prepare for Archdemon number 2...but oh no if they did that they would have figured out not all the wardens were dying and they didn't need to summon demon.

So yeah Derp derp warden derp.

[dragonflight288]

It was hinted in an earlier game that the Wardens have a Map and know where the other two archdemons probably are located. And yeah, you have to wonder why they just didn't grab every Warden in Thedas and go after them, but....

 

It's discussed in the book "The Calling."

 

The Wardens know exactly where the Archdemons are slumbering. They've already found them. The issue is that the deep roads are so full of darkspawn that they can't reasonably get to them with the strength they have. 

 

It also looked really bad when one of them gave the Architect the archdemons locations, and he started the blight in Ferelden by waking Uthemrial. 

[fhs33721]

There is another illogical part and that is, if you are going after the arch demons wouldn't it make sense to get down into the Deep Roads and then summon the demons?  What is the point of bringing them through on the surface? 

And what exactly would be the advantage of summoning the demons in the deep roads instead of on the surface? The deep roads are normally full of Darkspawn, so of course you summon your demon army, which you want to fight those Darkspawn, before you go down there.

[thats1evildude]

Now I have another question. How did Florianne opened the rift in winter palace? There weren't any mages or sacrifice...

The rift was already there. In fact, she didn't open the rift; the Inquisitor did that to force most of the Venatori to flee.

[ACzeMiky]

The rift was already there. In fact, she didn't open the rift; the Inquisitor did that to force most of the Venatori to flee.

What the hell? That doesn't make sence at all. The demons were helping those soldiers and were attacking you not them. And on few webs as Wiki when I looked on walkthrough there is said that she commanded the demons and soldiers... So it wasn't you who opened it.

[Riot Inducer]

What the hell? That doesn't make sence at all. The demons were helping those soldiers and were attacking you not them. And on few webs as Wiki when I looked on walkthrough there is said that she commanded the demons and soldiers... So it wasn't you who opened it.

No it definitely was the Inquisitor who opened it, I replayed it just a couple days ago. The rift is idle in the courtyard when the scene starts, the Inquisitor dives under the volley of arrows and opens the rift to catch the Venatori off guard. Idk if in gameplay they would attack each other but that's what the story/lore is about, apart from the demons at Adamant none of the demons that come through rifts are allied with anyone, they're basically feral. 

[PapaCharlie9]

The debasing of the Wardens in DAI (and "The Calling") is one of my biggest disappointments with the evolution of the story. Yes, the Wardens can be ruthless, destructive, self-serving and despotic -- definitely not shining paladins of heroic goodness -- but never so completely stupid and cowardly. It's the universal stupidity that I just can't accept.

 

At least in "The Calling" the stupidity is limited to just a handful of Wardens. In DAI, it's all Wardens under Clarel's command, except for the renegado and -- ha ha -- Blackwall. I just can't accept that. I headcannon Adamant in DAI to be a relatively small splinter group that is stupid and scared enough to submit to blood magic and control by a Tevinter geek. Otherwise I'd have to give up playing the game.