121 réponses à ce sujet

[wright1978]

in short: th next game has to be more like ME2

I certainly hope it takes a lot of cues from me2.

[Hiemoth]

I actually think Mass Effect 3 had the best critical path design. You had story events that lead naturally one into another (such as the turians asking for krogan battle troops) and a few hubs where big arcs such as the genophage and quarian/geth had some major side quests dedicated to them leading up to the big quest. Scattered around these events were meaty side quests like Grissom, the Asari Monastery, Cerberus scientists, Kasumi's Citadel quest, etc. And some fetch quests if you needed downtime between all the big cinematics and shooting. All at a nice length of 30-40 hours.

 

I prefer this to a bunch of unrelated sub-arcs that are only tenuously related to the central story arc. In structure, I much prefer Dragon Age 2's progression than Dragon Age: Origins, even if DA2's third arc is woefully underdeveloped.

 

I completely agree with this. Even more, I am somewhat baffled by the argument. What arcs did the ME1 side quests have? The only one I can really think of was the Consort side quest, all the others were either single discussion solves or introductions to generic planet X where you drove to the base and killed everyone. The smuggling quest is the only side quest on Noveria I can remember, as all the others are basically just alternatives approaces to the main quest. And the side quests on Noveria were essentially pure fetch quests, which we've decided on ME3 to be horrible. Add to that that ME2 doesn't actually really have that many side quests that aren't stumbling on a planet signal, which don't have any kinds of arcs.

 

The thing with the sidequest complaint for ME3 kind of shows that Bioware really can't win. They get complaints about their minimal sidequests, so they dig in and produce really stellar side quests that complement the main story beautifully. After which turns out that they did such a good job that some refuse to consider them side quests and instead trod the fetch quests as the example side quests of ME3. Which in turn completely ignores the fact that the actually time sink for fetch quests is minor in ME3, especially when compared with ME1/2 as a response to the criticsm for the fetch quests in those.

 

And for DA2 side quests, what I loved about them is that while for the most part they were independent of the main story, they did provide really great context for Kirkwall while narratively being about the same things as the main story. That allowed the game as a whole feel more cohesive for me than DAO.

[Sanunes]

I completely agree with this. Even more, I am somewhat baffled by the argument. What arcs did the ME1 side quests have? The only one I can really think of was the Consort side quest, all the others were either single discussion solves or introductions to generic planet X where you drove to the base and killed everyone. The smuggling quest is the only side quest on Noveria I can remember, as all the others are basically just alternatives approaces to the main quest. And the side quests on Noveria were essentially pure fetch quests, which we've decided on ME3 to be horrible. Add to that that ME2 doesn't actually really have that many side quests that aren't stumbling on a planet signal, which don't have any kinds of arcs.

 

The thing with the sidequest complaint for ME3 kind of shows that Bioware really can't win. They get complaints about their minimal sidequests, so they dig in and produce really stellar side quests that complement the main story beautifully. After which turns out that they did such a good job that some refuse to consider them side quests and instead trod the fetch quests as the example side quests of ME3. Which in turn completely ignores the fact that the actually time sink for fetch quests is minor in ME3, especially when compared with ME1/2 as a response to the criticsm for the fetch quests in those.

 

And for DA2 side quests, what I loved about them is that while for the most part they were independent of the main story, they did provide really great context for Kirkwall while narratively being about the same things as the main story. That allowed the game as a whole feel more cohesive for me than DAO.

 

I think Mass Effect 3 is a perfect example of a developer trying too hard to give players what they want and and the side effect of doing that in both how the community reacts and limitations on how they can be implemented in the game.

[Fixers0]

I completely agree with this. Even more, I am somewhat baffled by the argument. What arcs did the ME1 side quests have? The only one I can really think of was the Consort side quest, all the others were either single discussion solves or introductions to generic planet X where you drove to the base and killed everyone. The smuggling quest is the only side quest on Noveria I can remember, as all the others are basically just alternatives approaces to the main quest. And the side quests on Noveria were essentially pure fetch quests, which we've decided on ME3 to be horrible. Add to that that ME2 doesn't actually really have that many side quests that aren't stumbling on a planet signal, which don't have any kinds of arcs.

 

Well if you would have paid some attention, you get pretty sizabele list of arcs from mostly unc quests:

 

Arc: Cerberus.

Assignements: Citadel: Docter Michel, UNC: Missing Marines, UNC: Cerberus, UNC: Hades' Dogs, UNC: Colony of the Death, UNC Depot Sigma-23, UNC: Dead Scientists.

 

Arc: Rachni from Noveria

Assignements: Noveria: Geth interest UNC: Listening post Alpha, UNC: Listening post Beta, UNC Depot Sigma-23.

 

Arc: Exogeni experiments.

Assignements: Feros: Geth Attack, UNC Colony of the death, UNC: Exogeni Facility,

 

Arc: Biotic Extremism.

Assignements: UNC: Hostage, UNC: Major Kyle, UNC: Besieged Base.

 

Arc: Geth attacks.

Assignements: UNC Geth Incursions, UNC: Distress call, UNC Lost Module.

 

As you can see there are a lot of arcs to be found in ME1's sidequests, some sidequests are even part of multiple arcs, something that is rarely seen.

[Dashen Thomas]

Well if you would have paid some attention, you get pretty sizabele list of arcs from mostly unc quests:
 
Arc: Cerberus.
Assignements: Citadel: Docter Michel, UNC: Missing Marines, UNC: Cerberus, UNC: Hades' Dogs, UNC: Colony of the Death, UNC Depot Sigma-23, UNC: Dead Scientists.
 
Arc: Rachni from Noveria
Assignements: Noveria: Geth interest UNC: Listening post Alpha, UNC: Listening post Beta, UNC Depot Sigma-23.
 
Arc: Exogeni experiments.
Assignements: Feros: Geth Attack, UNC Colony of the death, UNC: Exogeni Facility,
 
Arc: Biotic Extremism.
Assignements: UNC: Hostage, UNC: Major Kyle, UNC: Besieged Base.
 
Arc: Geth attacks.
Assignements: UNC Geth Incursions, UNC: Distress call, UNC Lost Module.
 
As you can see there are a lot of arcs to be found in ME1's sidequests, some sidequests are even part of multiple arcs, something that is rarely seen.

Thanks for reminding us about those. I had almost forgotten those story archs. They were indeed nice although on my first playthrough I didn't really pay much attention how they were linked. I think all the story was explained just through data pads or something so it was kind of easy to miss especially if you just clicked everything semi automatically. But yeah it would be nice to get something like those in MEA as well (in addition to ME2 type of quests of course)

[Commander Rpg]

Thing is...that BioWare no longer exists.  They're gone.  It's an EA studio and only BioWare in name.  Hasn't even Gaider left recently too?  BioWare doesn't exist anymore.

 

That's why we don't get those kinds of things anymore.  The talent they have is a shadow of what BioWare used to be.  Again (can't stress it enough) because it is literally EA just using the BioWare name.

 

It's a shame, but true.  And we won't see that kind of thing anymore from the side-studio EA calls BioWare.

Give this guy a Colt M1911 and the license to kill the responsibles of Bioware's downfall, as an alternative to the medal.

[Gothfather]

Back when side missions were interesting, had actual stories and didn't feel like rejected ideas from some bad upcoming MMO.

 

 

The good ol days.

 

What you mean like those side quests in DA:O?

 

Cuz that is a lie you are telling yourself. It is called nostalgia Bias.

 

The much maligned 10 ram meat in DA:I being lauded as an example of how Bioware has fallen so far with quest is just people being fooled by their own memories. DA:I had almost the exact same type of quests that DA:O had and I mean near identical mechanics. But somehow DA:I quests are crap and DA:O quests are part of the great tradition of Bioware. Lothering has the exact same quest as the bring me 10 ram meat, it was bring me x poison glands for my traps. 

 

The key difference between DA:I and DA:O isn't the ratio of main quest + companion quests to side quests either. That ratio is much the same too. The main difference is the environments where in past games you almost had to do NOTHING to get side quests done as the environments where so small, just walking about to do the main quest allowed you to finish multiple side quests. It took almost zero extra effort to do side quests and so many people mistake main quests with side quests. The quests with the talking tree and the hermit is a MAIN quest. It is required to enter deeper into the forest. In DA:I you have to go out of your way make an concerted effort to pick up and do the side quests. This is a direct result of a larger world space. Mechanically the quests are much the same. Collecting love letter, places of power, bring me corpse skins from the chantry board. So on and so forth the list goes on of what people claim are MMO quests but which have been the bloody quests RPGs have ALWAYS had even before MMOs. For christ sake MMOs stole those quests from single player RPGs.

 

I am not going to claim that there is no room for improvement for Bioware and quests, but mechanically they are the same as they have always been. So saying go back the the old ways is just Nostalgia Bias clouding people's perception. Bioware needs to work on integrating quests into the a larger world space but by in large the quests are identical mechanically to the quest of the past.

[Gothfather]

Thing is...that BioWare no longer exists.  They're gone.  It's an EA studio and only BioWare in name.  Hasn't even Gaider left recently too?  BioWare doesn't exist anymore.

 

That's why we don't get those kinds of things anymore.  The talent they have is a shadow of what BioWare used to be.  Again (can't stress it enough) because it is literally EA just using the BioWare name.

 

It's a shame, but true.  And we won't see that kind of thing anymore from the side-studio EA calls BioWare.

 

Yeah he left. Left Dragon age to work on Bioware's as of yet unnamed new IP.

 

This BS that Bioware isn't Bioware any more is just an EA studio is recycled every fraking year. Its filled with lies like Gaider leaving when he didn't. That EA micromanages their studios which has been shown countless times to be false. Yes EA has been responsible for some pretty terrible things in the past but they have improved as a company and what have they done in 2015 that was so bad?

 

This idea that because people lead a studio that they have lost talent is simply BS. Any company their size has yearly turnover it is the nature of all business and project orientated business have even greater turnover generally speaking. But it is gamer ignorance that manufactures this natural process of employee turnover into "proof" the company isn't what it use to be. 

 

Bioware makes great games. Like any company there sometimes falter but their body of work over shadows their missteps. But again gamers ignorance and unreasonable expectations results in tin foil hat theories vs the fact that every company has missteps period.

 

Not only that but just because a company stops making games YOU like doesn't magically turn that company into crap. i use to like Blizzard games, I don't  any more. But my SUBJECTIVE opinion isn't shared by millions of people who like Blizzard. They makes games people like to play even if I don't like them. Bioware is selling games people like to play. DA:I was a record sales title for them, it won countless industry awards and GAMER choice awards. You do not win gamer choice awards if people hate your games.

[Reighto]

Yeah he left. Left Dragon age to work on Bioware's as of yet unnamed new IP.

 

This BS that Bioware isn't Bioware any more is just an EA studio is recycled every fraking year. Its filled with lies like Gaider leaving when he didn't. That EA micromanages their studios which has been shown countless times to be false. Yes EA has been responsible for some pretty terrible things in the past but they have improved as a company and what have they done in 2015 that was so bad?

 

This idea that because people lead a studio that they have lost talent is simply BS. Any company their size has yearly turnover it is the nature of all business and project orientated business have even greater turnover generally speaking. But it is gamer ignorance that manufactures this natural process of employee turnover into "proof" the company isn't what it use to be. 

 

Bioware makes great games. Like any company there sometimes falter but their body of work over shadows their missteps. But again gamers ignorance and unreasonable expectations results in tin foil hat theories vs the fact that every company has missteps period.

 

Not only that but just because a company stops making games YOU like doesn't magically turn that company into crap. i use to like Blizzard games, I don't  any more. But my SUBJECTIVE opinion isn't shared by millions of people who like Blizzard. They makes games people like to play even if I don't like them. Bioware is selling games people like to play. DA:I was a record sales title for them, it won countless industry awards and GAMER choice awards. You do not win gamer choice awards if people hate your games.

https://twitter.com/...565564998152192

[In Exile]

Well if you would have paid some attention, you get pretty sizabele list of arcs from mostly unc quests:

 

Arc: Cerberus.

Assignements: Citadel: Docter Michel, UNC: Missing Marines, UNC: Cerberus, UNC: Hades' Dogs, UNC: Colony of the Death, UNC Depot Sigma-23, UNC: Dead Scientists.

 

Arc: Rachni from Noveria

Assignements: Noveria: Geth interest UNC: Listening post Alpha, UNC: Listening post Beta, UNC Depot Sigma-23.

 

Arc: Exogeni experiments.

Assignements: Feros: Geth Attack, UNC Colony of the death, UNC: Exogeni Facility,

 

Arc: Biotic Extremism.

Assignements: UNC: Hostage, UNC: Major Kyle, UNC: Besieged Base.

 

Arc: Geth attacks.

Assignements: UNC Geth Incursions, UNC: Distress call, UNC Lost Module.

 

As you can see there are a lot of arcs to be found in ME1's sidequests, some sidequests are even part of multiple arcs, something that is rarely seen.

 

But there's nothing to them. It's just stock locations and - with very rare exceptions - no interaction or dialogue. A bit better in concept than DA:I, but not really. 

[Il Divo]

^Agreed. Jade Empire's Imperial Arena is a much better example of a quest arc and that's all condensed into one location. 

[In Exile]

^Exactly. Jade Empire's Imperial Arena is a much better example of a quest arc and that's all condensed into one location. 

 

With both a 'major arc' (and a tie in for one companion!) and a series of smaller arcs, plus interesting backgrounds for the NPCs. JE continues to be one of Bioware's best games, and just sadly ahead of its time re: the market. If it had been a 360 title like ME, I think it would have been more of a breakout series. Even if the Wuxia setting was ultimately not popular, there are so many parts of the design that are great (although we missed out on Phoenix Gate ). 

[Il Divo]

^Damn straight. JE was always one of my favorites, but the more I look back, I think I like it even better than KotOR. And that's what I love about the Imperial Arena story-line; Jade Empire takes what easily could have been a straight-forward beat 'em up quest line, and adds a whole bunch of dimensions to it. In general, the companion design was probably Bioware's most diverse to date (Lord Lao's furnace anyone?, Wild Flower?). 

 

And I think Phoenix Gate is always something that's going to sting a little bit. I don't even need a sequel, if they had just given a couple hours of content there (kinda like Two Rivers at the start) as a tie in expansion, I would have been more than happy with that. 

[MaxQuartiroli]

 

In ME1, when you land on Feros and Noveria, they are hubs you traveled to because you're following leads. There's numerous tasks you can choose to do for any number of npc's. Tasks that may or may not have anything to do with why you're there. You can complete these tasks at your own pace. You are not thrown into these worlds and forced to run straight ahead until you reach the finish line. 

 

If they bring back that wouldn't people complain about the pace and the lack of urgency breaking the immersion, then?

[Il Divo]

^That's a fair point. I'm also not sure Feros really is a big, open hub in the style people are talking about. Yes, there are some side quests attached which we can involve ourselves in. But the game funnels you into two narrow pathways right off the bat: investigate Exogeni or explore the tunnels, then investigate Exogeni.

 

Compare this even to the other examples we've seen in this thread: Dantooine, Manaan, etc. The basic design there is you have a broad task to complete amidst a huge map, with the opportunity to engage in all manner of other activities. I think Feros was enjoyable, but I think it's a kinda weak example of the game design being asked for by others. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Obsidian should make the new KOTOR if there is one...

I wasn't at all happy with their work in KotOR2, so I can't agree.

[LinksOcarina]

I wasn't at all happy with their work in KotOR2, so I can't agree.

 

Those are games you don't prefer in terms of style and mechanics, i'm not surprised. 

[Nohvarr]

I wasn't at all happy with their work in KotOR2, so I can't agree.

The work they did on Pillars of Eternity was also lacking something I feel. It may have been the companions, something about them just did not work for me.

 

 

https://twitter.com/...565564998152192

Since he is on record as describing the forums as 'Toxic' in the past I don't think I can lay the blame for leaving at Biowares feet just yet.

[LinksOcarina]

The work they did on Pillars of Eternity was also lacking something I feel. It may have been the companions, something about them just did not work for me.

 

Id honestly say Pillars of Eternity is the best kickstarter game to come out so far.

 

Of course, mileage may vary on that of course. Divinity Original Sin, Shadowrun Returns and Wasteland 2 all fell flat for me hard. Pillars at least had a lot of good things going for it.

 

Although I think it does show limitation to the isometric deisgn as well. If Pillars is the evolution of isometric-styled RPGs, I would argue it has hit its peak as a genre in the end. That's not a bad thing though. 

[Fixers0]

But there's nothing to them. It's just stock locations and - with very rare exceptions - no interaction or dialogue. A bit better in concept than DA:I, but not really. 

 

Actually, Shepard has more dialogue in most of ME1's UNC quest than s/he did in all of ME2's N7 quests, in which s/he is completely silent, just go back and play through them all, not a single word from Shepard.

 

ME3's N7 have quest do have dialogue from Shepard, but it's all auto-dialogue with no interaction whatsoever from the player required. 

 

So in terms of interaction ME1's UNC Quest are vastly superior to ME2/ME3's N7 quests. I could even list all the UNC quest that had dialogue input decisions for Shepard to make, including Hackett's (de)briefings.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Those are games you don't prefer in terms of style and mechanics, i'm not surprised.

KotOR was a great game, though. It was the story that ruined KotOR2.

As KotOR and Torment demonstrate, discovering details about your own character as part of the story can work, but only with amnesia. In KotOR2 it was character-breaking.

[9TailsFox]

But what about creepy Shepard.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Id honestly say Pillars of Eternity is the best kickstarter game to come out so far.

Of course, mileage may vary on that of course. Divinity Original Sin, Shadowrun Returns and Wasteland 2 all fell flat for me hard. Pillars at least had a lot of good things going for it.

I haven't played the other two, but for me Wasteland 2 was the superior game.

Though that might just be my love of turn-based combat talking.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The work they did on Pillars of Eternity was also lacking something I feel. It may have been the companions, something about them just did not work for me.


Since he is on record as describing the forums as 'Toxic' in the past I don't think I can lay the blame for leaving at Biowares feet just yet.

BioWare has been his only job in the industry, and he's fairly well respected by other devs. He might have just decided to try something different, or he might have received an offer from elsewhere.

I'm still hoping he goes to Paradox. He'd probably enjoy Sweden.

[Gothfather]

https://twitter.com/...565564998152192

 

I stand corrected. I had not seen that tweet.