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[Draining Dragon]

For those who don't know, Shadowrun is a tabletop RPG franchise, set in a future in which cyberpunk technology and magic coexist. A company called Harebrained Schemes has developed and published a few computer games that take place in this setting, most recently Shadowrun: Hong Kong.



Along with an immersive setting and excellent storyline, the Shadowrun games feature multiple NPC companions, in a manner similar to RPGs made by Bioware and Obsidian. Players can speak to their companions to learn more about their backstories, and each companion also has personal quests that can be unlocked. These companions can accompany them on missions, where they will help out in fights and also offer their opinions during interactions.

I thought the companions were quite well-written in the two Shadowrun games I've played. One notable way in which they differ from Bioware NPCs is that there are no romances. However, you can still build friendships with the characters, and the lack of romances does not in any way detract from their character development, in my opinion. The SR games also have fewer companions (Dragonfall had 4 and Hong Kong had 5), but I didn't feel in any way constrained by the low number, mainly because of how interesting each individual companion is.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that the companions in SR: Dragonfall and Hong Kong are better written than those found in, say, Dragon Age Inquisition. I wonder if the different approach the writers took has anything to do with it, and if Bioware could perhaps learn something from this. I can't think of any Bioware games that didn't have romances, with the exception of BG1, which had an enormous cast of companions and not much in the way of character development. It might be worth considering.

What do you think? Feel free to post any other aspects of Shadowrun that you think the Mass Effect franchise could benefit from.

[DarthSliver]

Maybe let Bioware make their own game. But maybe you are asking the wrong question and comparing it to the wrong game. You should be asking yourself, can Bioware learn from ME3 ending backlash, Mass Effect 3 itself, and DAI itself? 

 

Maybe Bioware should learn from their own games, using the critizism that we the fans give them about it. 

[Elhanan]

Sorry, but I have only been able to play SR a single time; much prefer Bioware writing and games.

[Ibn_Shisha]

Though I've never done any SR video game, the setting is very nice in the melding of Cyberpunk and fantasy.  However, I don't really see it as a valid comparison for ME universe, as there isn't really a fantasy element in ME (biotics doesn't really count, IMO).  As far as companions go, writing is definitely important, and I'll have to take your word for it on the SR companions.  However, although I have disliked some companions, I don't see that as a failure in the writing. 

 

That goes for full companions - 'IGN companions' are a phenomenon I hope never returns.

[Evamitchelle]

Just finished playing Dragonfall Director's Cut today actually, and I was quite impressed. I was pleasantly surprised by the companions in particular. I wasn't expecting much on that front, but the character writing was pretty solid across the board, including non-companion NPCs. But lack of romance aside, I don't really see how the writers took a 'different approach'. You talk to your companions between missions, they open up about their backstories, and you eventually go on a side-quest to deal with their unfinished business. That's what Bioware does as well. 

 

One thing I really liked about Dragonfall and wouldn't mind seeing in Mass Effect is more class reactivity and non-combat skills. You can talk your way out of a lot of confrontations in DF, provided you have the proper skills. So kinda like the dialogue perks in DAI, but expanded upon. 

[Iakus]

 
I thought the companions were quite well-written in the two Shadowrun games I've played. One notable way in which they differ from Bioware NPCs is that there are no romances. However, you can still build friendships with the characters, and the lack of romances does not in any way detract from their character development, in my opinion. The SR games also have fewer companions (Dragonfall had 4 and Hong Kong had 5), but I didn't feel in any way constrained by the low number, mainly because of how interesting each individual companion is.
 

Hey, I headcanon my character and Gobbet have a thing going 

 

But yes, I think Dragonfall and Hong Kong have some great storytelling going on.

[Jorji Costava]

Well, my favorite thing from Shadowrun Returns (the only game in the series I've played) is also the thing that ME is least likely to borrow from: Turn-based combat. So leaving that aside, I guess one thing that ME could learn from Shadowrun would be the way it handles hacking. Hacking minigames in ME were pretty boring, so having something like the Matrix (Shadowrun's analogue for the internet, not a reference to the movie AFAIK) in ME could be a way to make this mechanic more interesting.

[SardaukarElite]

Wait, we're bringing up Shadowrun just so we can take a cheap shots at romances?

 

 (Shadowrun's analogue for the internet, not a reference to the movie AFAIK) 

 

Shadowrun pre-dates the film. It's borrowed from Neuromancer though. 

[Cyonan]

I liked having more non combat skills and skills that affected dialogue choices, and the hacking is so much better than any mini-game. Especially in Hong Kong where they revamped the grid.

 

I also liked seeing more of my choices come back later within the game rather than just flipping a switch on the world state for the next game. Sparing a certain NPC's life in Hong Kong I saw her show up in the final mission and she joined my team for a little while to help me out.

 

Maybe let Bioware make their own game. But maybe you are asking the wrong question and comparing it to the wrong game. You should be asking yourself, can Bioware learn from ME3 ending backlash, Mass Effect 3 itself, and DAI itself? 

 

Maybe Bioware should learn from their own games, using the critizism that we the fans give them about it. 

 

Any developer should be learning from both criticism around their previous games as well as what other games are doing.

 

You'd be a fool to not look at what others are doing to see what might work for your game.

[Mdizzletr0n]

Shadowrun run also had swords. Which is a bad word to alot of people around here. Lol

[Ahglock]

Shadowrun run also had swords. Which is a bad word to alot of people around here. Lol

I was about to talk about that.

I don't think it fits mass effect as its been presented. But Shadowrun manages it in a gun based setting. The differences I think are the battlefields, smaller scale combat, defenses, stealth and for lots of melee in the setting being able to get it past checkpoints and guards.

When you are fighting people who are 10 meters away in small groups with armor much like today's it's a bit more believable than when you are fighting dozens of enemies at 50+ Meters where people wear armor that stops shots from automatic rail guns.

If they keep mass effect like it has been which feels more like warfare than espionage then I don't think it works. If they completed change the feel of combat it might work.

[Laughing_Man]

Shadowrun run also had swords. Which is a bad word to alot of people around here. Lol

 

Well, generally the circumstances are different in SR:

 

A. The average sword wielding character in SR is usually not a vanilla human, it's either a cyber enhanced individual (aka Street Samurai), an Adept (monk-like magical enhancement for close combat), or the larger meta-human types like Orcs Trolls and their variations.

 

B. The battlefield is usually in an urban setting, usually in close quarters. You are either infiltrating a Mega Corp's secret laboratory, engaging in warfare between gangs, wiping out an evil cult, stomping a nest of magical bug-spirits, etc. In most cases it's not the classic military meaning of the word "battlefield".

 

C. Even in Shadowrun, melee combat is not always a great choice, you need to be really tanky to simply shrug off the volume of firepower you are likely to be targeted with if you always run into the open to engage your enemies.

[Laughing_Man]

I don't know if there is much in common between ME & SR, but I do agree regarding the quality and uniqueness of the characters in SR:HK.

All of them are very unique and have very interesting personalities.

 

If there is one thing that I wish Bioware would copy from SR, it is the general gritty, grey, and sinister atmosphere, the justified paranoia

born of the dangers of the "sixth world" and the total ruthlessness you can expect from the Mega Corporations and the Great Dragons.

 

It's somewhat similar to Warhammer 40K only less bombastic, less religious, and less... insane.

[Adanu]

Maybe let Bioware make their own game. But maybe you are asking the wrong question and comparing it to the wrong game. You should be asking yourself, can Bioware learn from ME3 ending backlash, Mass Effect 3 itself, and DAI itself? 

 

Maybe Bioware should learn from their own games, using the critizism that we the fans give them about it. 

Maybe let people express their opinions on a gaming forum for a company they like, instead of trying to silence constructive criticism or dissent.

[Semyaza82]

Oh good, another 'what can Bioware learn...' thread

[DarthSliver]

Maybe let people express their opinions on a gaming forum for a company they like, instead of trying to silence constructive criticism or dissent.

 

I would rather Bioware learn from their previous mistakes because you know that is why we are going to Andromeda in the first place. 

[Vortex13]

While it's true that the games in question aren't out yet, but wouldn't a more accurate question be: "What can Bioware learn from Cyberpunk 2077?" Or "What can BioWare learn from Deus Ex: Mankind Divided?" As those two titles fit in with what BioWare is making for Mass Effect: Andromeda, namely a Third Person Shooter/RPG hybrid?

 

Sure, good story, a great atmosphere, and memorable characters are something any RPG should aspire to, but I'm not sure how a turn-based game, can directly compare to an action-based one. I suppose the argument for a silent protagonist could be made, but the chances of that happening in any current or future BioWare titles is practically zero.

 

If we do want to compare a turn-based strategy/RPG game to the upcoming Mass Effect game, why not use XCOM 2? It deals with science fiction, aliens, utilizes several class archetypes, and is about saving the human race from extinction.

 

 

*On a side note, I find the concept of Deus Ex: Mankind Divided to be confusing. Why are the augmented humans being persecuted and treated like second class citizens again? They're stronger and more capable than baseline humanity, it should the the other way around. And even if the developers were going with the whole X-Men route, how are these poor, downtrodden masses able to afford these invasive and drastic surgeries to become augmented?

[ADelusiveMan]

Haven't played any of the Shadowrun games.  I've thought about buying Dragonfall, but the isometric view has always been a bit of a turn off for me (it's strange, because I love XCOM)...    Anyway, I think there are a few things Bioware could learn from other games, but I don't think character writing is one of them.  But a smaller roster of companions might not necessarily be a bad thing, especially considering the situation I hope the main cast of the game is in.

[ADelusiveMan]

 

 

*On a side note, I find the concept of Deus Ex: Mankind Divided to be confusing. Why are the augmented humans being persecuted and treated like second class citizens again? They're stronger and more capable than baseline humanity, it should the the other way around. And even if the developers were going with the whole X-Men route, how are these poor, downtrodden masses able to afford these invasive and drastic surgeries to become augmented?

 

Because the Illuminati caused them all to go crazy with the recent upgrade, and they started killing people around them at the end of Human Revolution.  Nobody trusts them because of that and they were all rounded up and put in isolated communities.

[Vortex13]

Because the Illuminati caused them all to go crazy with the recent upgrade, and they started killing people around them at the end of Human Revolution.  Nobody trusts them because of that and they were all rounded up and put in isolated communities.

 

 

Ah, thanks for clarifying that, the concept for that game makes a little more sense now.

 

Still it seems ridiculous that one programing update would suddenly make everyone against such amazing technology. If a car manufacturer has a line of automobiles suffer a series of catastrophic brake failures people will work to correct the problem. They wouldn't suddenly swear off cars all together.

[rocklikeafool]

[ADelusiveMan]

Ah, thanks for clarifying that, the concept for that game makes a little more sense now.

 

Still it seems ridiculous that one programing update would suddenly make everyone against such amazing technology. If a car manufacturer has a line of automobiles suffer a series of catastrophic brake failures people will work to correct the problem. They wouldn't suddenly swear off cars all together.

 

Well, if you remember, there was already some unease regarding human augmentation.  I think there were two protests in the beginning of DE:HR.  Add an event like the Aug Incident to that public unrest, and it's not that hard to imagine.  Best way I can put it in current real life terms is the Paris attack back in November, and the subsequent anti-refugee backlash that followed shortly thereafter.  It's not a perfect comparison, but I think it works.

[Iakus]

Ah, thanks for clarifying that, the concept for that game makes a little more sense now.

 

Still it seems ridiculous that one programing update would suddenly make everyone against such amazing technology. If a car manufacturer has a line of automobiles suffer a series of catastrophic brake failures people will work to correct the problem. They wouldn't suddenly swear off cars all together.

Millions of people around the world died as a result of this"programming update".  And human augmentation was already a controversial topic at the time.  

[Vortex13]

Millions of people around the world died as a result of this"programming update".  And human augmentation was already a controversial topic at the time.  

 

 

Well, if you remember, there was already some unease regarding human augmentation.  I think there were two protests in the beginning of DE:HR.  Add an event like the Aug Incident to that public unrest, and it's not that hard to imagine.  Best way I can put it in current real life terms is the Paris attack back in November, and the subsequent anti-refugee backlash that followed shortly thereafter.  It's not a perfect comparison, but I think it works.

 

 

Good points. 

 

Truth be told I've never played the Deus Ex games (Eh gods! the horror I know  ) so I wasn't aware of the intricacies of the setting. I just remember seeing the E3 demo for Mankind Dividing and thinking to myself, "Why are the cybernetically enhanced humans the downtrodden ones in this game?" "They're objectively superior to regular humans in every single way." 

 

Now I am informed. The More You Know.

[Iakus]

Good points. 

 

Truth be told I've never played the Deus Ex games (Eh gods! the horror I know  ) so I wasn't aware of the intricacies of the setting. I just remember seeing the E3 demo for Mankind Dividing and thinking to myself, "Why are the cybernetically enhanced humans the downtrodden ones in this game?" "They're objectively superior to regular humans in every single way." 

 

Now I am informed. The More You Know.

 

There is more, of course...

 

Spoiler

The Illuminati has been fomenting the tension between augmented and nonaugmented people so the technology will become heavily regulated by their own agents.

 

Also, the "software upgrade" incident was an act of deliberate sabotage intended to turn people against augmentation and foil the Illuminati

 

There's  an entire shadow war being fought below the surface