229 réponses à ce sujet

[Draining Dragon]

biower pls

Most new games just don't have the same depth as the old ones. Mass Effect 3 and DAI were especially lacking when it came to dialogue and choices.

[Gothfather]

I have no love for the voiced protagonist, but it's simply not going to happen in mainstream. 

 

There is a whole slew of games that are either out or are being produced.  Yes, they're indie, and because of that you won't get the stunning graphics something like DA:I possesses... but thems the breaks.

 

Bioware is like... CW, WB or FOX

 

Try:

 

Pillars of Eternity

Divinity: Original Sin

Shadowrun: Dragonfall

Shadowrun: Hong Kong

Torment: Tides of Numerea (not yet released)

and Wasteland 2

 

@Vox Draco:  Yes, choice is an illusion in cRPGs, but not in real RPGs - so, I prefer the illusion to be stronger than (choose blue, red or grey)

 

This is a far better tactic for gamers. If you are unhappy with RPGs being built by AAA studios stop pissing into the wind and complaining of getting wet. Instead turn around and go to studios  that are actually creating the games you like. I loved the Infinity engine games when they first came out but frankly POE, Divinity:Original sin, Wastelands 2 and Shadowrun all left me flat. i couldn't even finish POE or Divinity: original sin. None of these games game me an RPG experience I couldn't get in modern titles and non of them gave me an experience that was worth giving up features they didn't have. For other people this will be different because TASTES are SUBJECTIVE. There is no right or wrong answer to do you like 'X' or did you enjoy 'Y.'

 

The industry has moved on from the 90s it was 20 years ago. There is room for smaller studios to make game that look and feel like the 90s but none of these games were huge sellers in terms of units. They were successful and financially successful because they basically got interest free loans in the form of crowd funding. And they didn't even have to pay that money back they just had to give people the game with pointless add-ons for the game which would have been produced regardless. No need to pay back the money given, no need to give part of their profits to their investors. None of that. We the consumer take on ALL the risks for none of the return. Not really a fair exchange in my book.

 

If people want the 90's nostalgia feel to their RPGs then by all means buy them. After 4 games and 4 disappointments I have learned the lesson that for me i want the experience only a modern RPG can give me because I can get everything I got from a 90's title in a modern title plus those things that a 90 title can't give me, like acting, the amount of emotion that an actor can convey is greater than what I can read from stinted dialogue. I prefer voice acted games, I grew up play Zork in the 80's with no voice no graphics just text. I have zero desire to return to that. I enjoy my sounds, voices and graphics.

[o Ventus]

So, about these two images...

 

 

This comparison is absurd. In the case of the first, I can see a, "I'll come back and talk later option," which indicates that everything you can say in that interaction is displayed in that list. I'm going to go out on a limb and wager that it's possible to select the inquisitive options, and then still have the decision options available to you. Most of the time, Bioware games provides the same thing, but they pace it out, in order, so that it's less simplistic and flows like an actual conversation. And the contrasting picture they're showcasing is at the very end of a branching journey of dialogue where no actual decision is being made. It's flavor dialogue. 

 

As for the second image: lol. 

 

But if you point out the flaw in their argument, they'll all spontaneously combust from the bias.

[Bowlcuts]

No thanks. 

I am highly proud of my conversion from Morrowind to Mass Effect, I don't regret a thing.

I don't think enumerated dialogue can make up for the contradicting elements voiced dialogue can bring.

[LinksOcarina]

I'll just leave this here.

 

[ZipZap2000]

90s? No. In fact, I believe that RPG's were at their height from about 2003 to about 2010.

He's clearly confused RPG with RTS.

[Il Divo]

^Typo, man. I think he meant to say 2002. Wacraft 3 and all. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Gothfather:  Shadowrun: Dragonfall left you flat?  MADNESS. 

 

@LinksOcarina: 

 

-  "Interactive novel vs. interactive screenplay."  Well said.  Movies take far less imagination to experience than a novel.  In fact, movies take no imagination to experience as nearly every sense is fed to you via the medium.  You are simply absorbing someone elses imagination.  Likewise... the new Bioware cinematic experience is far less an imaginative experience than past games.  People will rage and disagree... but they're wrong (I'm open minded like that). 

 

"An actor who is going to deliver that line for you..."  *shudder*

[Larry-3]

He's clearly confused RPG with RTS.

RTS is my second favorite genre of games. Regardless, for RTS... 2005 to 2014. At least, from my point of view.

[Larry-3]

biower pls

Most new games just don't have the same depth as the old ones. Mass Effect 3 and DAI were especially lacking when it came to dialogue and choices.

For some reason, developers are prioritizing graphics over depth.

Even something shiny can be ugly.

[Cyonan]

RTS is my second favorite genre of games. Regardless, for RTS 2005 to 2014. At least, from my point of view.

 

Picking a RTS era as the best that doesn't include Starcraft 1, Warcraft 1-3, the early Command and Conquers, Age of Empires 2, or Total Annihilation?

 

Actually I'm curious as to what games are making you extend that as far as 2014. My understanding is that the genre of RTS has been on life support for some time now, with Starcraft 2 being the only note worthy one.

[Seraphim24]

The earlier games were frequently better, but not really because of the "dialogue trees" per se, it's because of the "everything."

[Iakus]

 
Even something shiny can be ugly.

QFT

[Iakus]

 
Divergent outcomes that the next game in the series pretends didn't happen are utterly pointless.

It's not like they mean much now

[Cyonan]

The earlier games were frequently better, but not really because of the "dialogue trees" per se, it's because of the "everything."

 

Personally I find most of the gameplay mechanics of the old school RPGs to be incredibly clunky and annoying to use.

 

So I'd say that has improved with time.

[goishen]

I fall asleep when playing them.  Too much energy infused within a game to be role playing a character.  I'll admit, I'm a huge baby about this.  But if I can't have it my way, I don't want it.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

It's easy to have a gazillion different dialogue options or choices when all of it is rendered in text and the view is isometric, with the devs not needing to worry about character animations, cinematic conversations, or cutscenes.

 

There is still a place for old school RPGs, as Pillars of Eternity demonstrated, but that doesn't mean that every RPG should be a PoE clone. Mass Effect certainly shouldn't.

 

Yeah, this. I love text-based dialogue and limited choices, if it fits the style of the game, even a modern one. A sandbox RPG like a Elder Scrolls game? Bring on the text! 

 

But not in most Bioware games. The levels are relatively linear and the storytelling and cinematic elements are emphasized. A silent protagonist and text-based dialogue would break everything into lots of little, bite-sized pieces. The dialogue wheel and voiced dialogue on the other hand are perfect for real-time conversations, and they served Mass Effect very well, especially since Shepard is more or less similar no matter what his/her face looks like. I'm not choosing to play as a hulking knight or a scrawny rogue. No matter what my class is, I'm going to be a physically powerful military person who wears armor of considerable heft and carries guns that are also of considerable heft, and whose bread and butter fighting style uses gunplay as an anchor. 

[greenbrownblue]

Player choice and many other things that game companies did with their games is what made RPGs great back then, I remember being able to choose from 6 different choices on how to deal with raiders in the old fallout... Same for the old BioWare here is what I mean - 

 

No, I would rather have 3-6 dialogue choices with good voicing than 10 with no voice. Bioware RPGs are improving year by year. They are heading in the right direction. No need to take two steps back after taking a step forward.

[RoboticWater]

For some reason, developers are prioritizing graphics over depth.

I think this is a gross oversimplification. Graphics are obviously improving, and I can understand the belief that gameplay is not, but reducing the complex evolution of AAA game development to a pithy statement.

 

For one, you're conflating lack of depth with streamlining to a certain extent. There's a very good reason that old RPG have a reputation for being obtuse and clunky: they are. Reducing or removing some features isn't necessarily done out of laziness or apathy; it's done to make sure new players aren't intimidated and veterans don't get annoyed. It would also be too far to say that some AAA RPG haven't dialed back their mechanics a bit too far, but the issue isn't nearly so black and white.

 

I also think it's important to know why developers prioritize graphics, sound effects, and VO. It isn't simply because newer, shinier things are easier to sell (though that is a component); it's because presentation is a vital aspect to visual media. Yes, text is a powerful medium when wielded effectively, but nothing can arouse a potent ambiance like graphics. While they may not leave as much to the imagination, these images more readily draw audiences in. They are spectacles in themselves. This is the whole reason VR works. I've yet to see any VR game push videogame mechanics to a deeper level; in fact, most VR games seem even more shallow than most games on the market today, yet it has a non-negligible population of the gaming crowd in a frenzy because it has incredible presentation value.

 

So if BIoWare wants to prioritize graphics, then let them. I think it's ridiculous to assume that depreciating graphics or other presentational effects would somehow improve a game as a whole.

[ZipZap2000]

For some reason, developers are prioritizing graphics over depth.

Even something shiny can be ugly.

You were young in the wrong era.

Or maybe I was.

[TheJiveDJ]

Blech... NO, GOD, NO... early 90's RPG's are almost unplayable for me now, unless I have some really strong nostalgia goggles on. The production values just aren't comparable. Sure, you had more choices for role playing, but most games didn't have fully voiced and mo-capped characters to contend with.

 

I'd settle for 2000's BW, with a modern skin.

[Larry-3]

Picking a RTS era as the best that doesn't include Starcraft 1, Warcraft 1-3, the early Command and Conquers, Age of Empires 2, or Total Annihilation?
 
Actually I'm curious as to what games are making you extend that as far as 2014. My understanding is that the genre of RTS has been on life support for some time now, with Starcraft 2 being the only note worthy one.

Well, I am a rookie level modder for a Star Wars RTS game.

(Empire at War: Forces of Corruption)
http://www.moddb.com...alliance-at-war

Anyway, here is a few that comes to mind -- that I like.
Star Wars: Commander
Sins of a Solar Empire
Vega Conflict
Halo: Wars
Company of Heroes

[ioannisdenton]

I am happy that lots of people disagree with OP.
I ll state my recent experience with an recent old school rpg 5 months ago. Divine Divinity.
While the game was indeed good i cound not get past the ARCHAIC mechanics and gameplay this game featured.
I literally could not stand having to manually heal after every fight with a single healing spell that i had to cast 2 times outside of combat with a cooldown for each party member
Different inventory for each party member = and i thought DaI and Witcher3 menu was cumbersome. NO
lots of pointless walking from a to b for fetch quests. 
Dialogue was good though although NON voiced actor was kinda killing the mood.
Fights that punish you with a loooong loading screen if you fail, and you fail cause this game requires trial and error, just like old rpgs.
i really really really appreciated DaI9da2,daO, conviniencies and i literally realised all 3 games have quite the thought in them.

SO yeah, archaic mechanics need to die.

Nope i ll pass. i am not spoiled from new games but i value reasonable progression as my free time is not the same as years ago.
As a note i played DaI on nightmare with most trials on and finished it in 3 months in 250 hours. i do play a lot but there was real progression.

[Valdez_ua]

Agree, total degradation of the dialogues made rpgs shallow and more like interactive movies. Dialogue wheel is an abomination. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

No matter what my class is, I'm going to be a physically powerful military person who wears armor of considerable heft and carries guns that are also of considerable heft, and whose bread and butter fighting style uses gunplay as an anchor.

That's another bad thing about ME's overall design.

The first character I designed for ME didn't resemble the Shepard you describe at all. And the voice broke that character within minutes.