229 réponses à ce sujet

[LinksOcarina]

I didn't mention the Ultima games (as great as they are) because they gave you a clear objective fairly early on.

But Questron didn't. Or how about Oubliette, which explicitly had no objective?

 

The Oubliette I know is a multiplayer game, pretty much a proto-MUD. It was designed to be a multi-player dungeon crawl so it had no objectives outside of dungeon crawling. It had the tavern setup and you can gamble to if you wanted too, if I recall. That's about it. 

 

The thing is, the game forces an objective of dungeon-crawling by design. It's all you do unless you hang out in the tavern and roachrace all the time. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

The Oubliette I know is a multiplayer game, pretty much a proto-MUD. It was designed to be a multi-player dungeon crawl so it had no objectives outside of dungeon crawling. It had the tavern setup and you can gamble to if you wanted too, if I recall. That's about it.

The thing is, the game forces an objective of dungeon-crawling by design. It's all you do unless you hang out in the tavern and roachrace all the time.

I was only familiar with the single-player ports of Oubliette (DOS 1981, C64 1983, Android 2012). I was unaware that the original PLATO version (1977) was multiplayer.

But my point stands. The entire world was that tavern and the dungeon. There was no direction. There was nothing you had to do in either place.

Incidentally, I corresponded with Jim Schwaiger/Victor Helsing in 2006 or so. I was trying to acquire the rights to Oubliette from him.

[LinksOcarina]

I was only familiar with the single-player ports of Oubliette (DOS 1981, C64 1983, Android 2012). I was unaware that the original PLATO version (1977) was multiplayer.

But my point stands. The entire world was that tavern and the dungeon. There was no direction. There was nothing you had to do in either place.

Incidentally, I corresponded with Jim Schwaiger/Victor Helsing in 2006 or so. I was trying to acquire the rights to Oubliette from him.

 

Ok I got to ask, how did you contact Schwaiger and Helsing, and do you have enough money for rights to a game like Oubliette?

 

And as a point though, if there was nothing you had to do, why do anything at all in such a world?

[Iakus]

So you are now doing what the other guy was doing..... nice to know they just let that happen on this forum casually... not that I was holding out hope for Bioware at this point or anything.

You get used to it 

[Iakus]

The dialogue-wheel needs an update from the past.

 

I would like to know what information my character's replys contain again before choosing one.

Heck the dialogue wheel needs to actually be a wheel.  Rather than a triangle.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Ok I got to ask, how did you contact Schwaiger and Helsing, and do you have enough money for rights to a game like Oubliette?

I found Werdna on the internet, and he had some details that helped me track down public documents with Helsing's info on them.

Also, I'm reasonably confident Schwaiger and Helsing are the same guy. I talked to Victor Helsing, and he was pretty cagey on that topic.

At the time, I couldn't find any evidence that the rights had been used for anything for about 20 years, so for all I knew the copyright had been abandoned. The rights might have been cheap. Alas, no, Helsing told me that he would vigorously defend his copyright, and that he was developing a mobile version.

And as a point though, if there was nothing you had to do, why do anything at all in such a world?

Why do anything in the real world?

Because you want to.

[LinksOcarina]

I found Werdna on the internet, and he had some details that helped me track down public documents with Helsing's info on them.

Also, I'm reasonably confident Schwaiger and Helsing are the same guy. I talked to Victor Helsing, and he was pretty cagey on that topic.

At the time, I couldn't find any evidence that the rights had been used for anything for about 20 years, so for all I knew the copyright had been abandoned. The rights might have been cheap. Alas, no, Helsing told me that he would vigorously defend his copyright, and that he was developing a mobile version.
Why do anything in the real world?

Because you want to.

 

That's the real world though. Oubliette is not the real world .

 

Also you mean this mobile game?

[Sylvius the Mad]

That's the real world though. Oubliette is not the real world .

It is to the characters who live there.

Also you mean this mobile game?

That's it. That's essentially the same game I played on the C=64, though you now choose spells from a list rather than having to type out the name in that fictional language.

FIEMINAT!

And resting has been streamlined somewhat.

[LinksOcarina]

It is to the characters who live there.
That's it. That's essentially the same game I played on the C=64, though you now choose spells from a list rather than having to type out the name in that fictional language.

FIEMINAT!

And resting has been streamlined somewhat.

 

That is much easier, and I didn't even play Oubliette back then.

 

I guess if your options are tavern and dungeon though, your options for what your character wants to do are kind of limited in that case. 

[Il Divo]

By the standards of its time? Yes. By today's? Not really

So basically you're going to try to dress up a less-extreme version of your opinion as fact? Well, I guess that's an improvement.

 

Out of sheer curiosity, who exactly is Guinevere? 

[FKA_Servo]

Out of sheer curiosity, who exactly is Guinevere? 

 

Kefka.

[Lady Artifice]

Kefka.

/asellus

[Il Divo]

Interesting, I guess the avatar was the give away. 

[Kabooooom]

No.

That said..most of my favorite rpgs are from the 90s. Xenogears, Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy VI. These are games I've played repeatedly. Mass Effect takes the win though, and I like a number of others almost as much as those classics. In general, I think the genre is moving in a better direction now. Or at least, the good rpg developers are...and I include Bioware there.

[AlanC9]

In that case, we can ignore Irenicus.

Yes. Of course, his whole plan is based on us coming after him. I suppose he'd eventually need to come up with a Plan B if the PC just never shows up at Spellhold

[von uber]

I bounced off baldurs gate 2 pretty hard last year.
Was annoyed by the end of the tutorial.

I've played divinity original sin pretty much all the way through in co-op - that has been great fun mainly due to the combat system, we've had to resort to Google to try and work out either how the hell to do something, or what exactly we should be doing (for example we only worked out how to unlock the portals in the end of time after we had already reached level 19 and were near the end - obtuse is not the word).

Personally I don't have the time anymore to invest is something like pillars of eternity, and I am not sure I would appreciate it's deliberate archaicness, which often seems to be an excuse just to raise a barrier to entry.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I bounced off baldurs gate 2 pretty hard last year.
Was annoyed by the end of the tutorial.

BG2 is, I think, by far the lesser of the BG games.

[tesla21]

I bounced off baldurs gate 2 pretty hard last year.
Was annoyed by the end of the tutorial.

I've played divinity original sin pretty much all the way through in co-op - that has been great fun mainly due to the combat system, we've had to resort to Google to try and work out either how the hell to do something, or what exactly we should be doing (for example we only worked out how to unlock the portals in the end of time after we had already reached level 19 and were near the end - obtuse is not the word).

Personally I don't have the time anymore to invest is something like pillars of eternity, and I am not sure I would appreciate it's deliberate archaicness, which often seems to be an excuse just to raise a barrier to entry.

 

Interesting I found Pillars to be pretty interface friendly, way more so than those of it's genre at least and quests rarely have you wondering wtf am I supposed to do now out of lack of mechanic explanation. Hardest thing on the game is figuring workarounds the annoying fights like getting perma cc'ed or goddamn charm/dominate but those can usually just be delayed and easily done if you go and do a few quests to level up, that and the stupid pathing, so annoying to deal with.

 

They added respec for little gold so you don't get punished for picking the wrong stats out of starting ignorance either.  Overall the game feels like a modernized crpg. Have you actually tried it or just first impression?

[RoboticWater]

Interesting I found Pillars to be pretty interface friendly, way more so than those of it's genre at least and quests rarely have you wondering wtf am I supposed to do now out of lack of mechanic explanation. Hardest thing on the game is figuring workarounds the annoying fights like getting perma cc'ed or goddamn charm/dominate but those can usually just be delayed and easily done if you go and do a few quests to level up, that and the stupid pathing, so annoying to deal with.

 

They added respec for little gold so you don't get punished for picking the wrong stats out of starting ignorance either.  Overall the game feels like a modernized crpg. Have you actually tried it or just first impression?

Though I don't have an opinion as negative towards Pillars, I sheer number of disparate mechanics to be a bit daunting, especially when managing encounters. Priests get a whole ton of powers (more than half of which I couldn't be bothered to remember), Bards have this whole chanting systems which I found pretty confusing (I think I get it now, but I can never really tell), Wizards have only so many powers to use between rests, and I still don't even know if sneak attacks are even a thing. I think the breadth of the mechanics is nice, but I don't personally value that amount of scale over effective simplicity.

 

The interface isn't too bad, but sometimes I find it hard to get past the sheer amount of numbers/icons that can get crammed into a single space. Would it kill them to make the menu full screen? The numbers are confusing in themselves, but the screen doesn't even give them any room to breathe. And I've rarely found a percentage lower than 25% that gives me a good sense of what upgrade/power/passive/etc. actually means in practice. Multiply all those numbers by the insane number of powers you have access to and then start sprinkling all those numbers all over the screen during combat and everything gets out of hand. While, I'm definitely making the game more complicated than it needs to be in my head (I've clearly made it far enough despite the supposed complexity), I can't ignore the fact that the mechanics could definitely be easier to parse.

 

Other problems I have are generally with the presentation. The overall graphics are nice, but I find the fairly low poly character models to be a bit silly looking (especially with hoods on), and I can't stand that canned "hello there!" you hear when initiating a conversation.

[Malthier]

You get used to it 

 

more likely he'll keep accusing anyone who disagrees with him of censorship and demanding the place be shut down. like he usually does 

[SentinelMacDeath]

Hey Malthier ....! 

[AngryGrandpa]

The 80s were better sonny.
Can us old fogies get BINGO added to the game?

[Gothfather]

@Gothfather:  Shadowrun: Dragonfall left you flat?  MADNESS. 

 

@LinksOcarina: 

 

-  "Interactive novel vs. interactive screenplay."  Well said.  Movies take far less imagination to experience than a novel.  In fact, movies take no imagination to experience as nearly every sense is fed to you via the medium.  You are simply absorbing someone elses imagination.  Likewise... the new Bioware cinematic experience is far less an imaginative experience than past games.  People will rage and disagree... but they're wrong (I'm open minded like that). 

 

"An actor who is going to deliver that line for you..."  *shudder*

Shadowrun: Hong Kong, is the game i played. I don't believe I ever played Dragonfall, unless it is Hong Kong under a different name.

[Gothfather]

That kind of has nothing to do with what I said. I said the older games were better because of the "everything," not "everything was better."

BG > NWN >  DA

 

You can apply this to similar other franchises.

 

Morrowind > Oblivion > Skyrim

 

Fallout 2 > Fallout 3

 

And so on down the line. Not without exception, but often, and in the case of Bioware?

 

Here is how it goes with Bioware after DA, I'm using >> to mean much greater than, >>> much much greater than, etc.

 

DA1 >>>>>>>>>> SWTOR/Sonic/SWTOR add-ons/Strongholds>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>DA:I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KOTOR/JE/ME1/ME2/ME3/Throne of Bhaal/pretty much every Bioware DLC ever made/Knights of the Fallen Empire

 

Now that Bioware core is essentially gone with the founders and stuff as well as the Bioware B team with Gaider and people like that (yes I know people like Matt Rhodes and probably many other people are still around), which rolled along with Baldur's Gate 2 and stuff, the only people left are, it seems, producing stuff that is substantively inferior to the likes of recent Blizzard games, and just like, a lot of games, and things... actually.

 

Any attempt to state otherwise is an attempt or lament this as an opinion is probably an attempt to promote a highly alternative version of what is essentially the truth (although could maybe make a few adjustments to this one, mostly minor).. which is... not good.

 

But that's not what you said right, you said the "gameplay mechanics" seemed to have improved?

 

Does that even matter? People want to know what's better and worse, it's extremely irrelevant and just irritatingly obsfuscatory to draw attention to minor things and stuff like that which frequently aren't even true, but yes it's entirely possible the user interface loads slightly quicker or some other thing. It wouldn't change the overall picture.

 

 

Oh for frak sake.

 

You know what really pisses me off is that Every fraking time a game is released people say the exact same fraking thing the earlier title was better. People said Morrowind was a piece of crap with tiny dungeons because Bethesda was appealing to the graphics crowd not the RPG crowd. When BG2 was released people said the original was better now most people think the second is better. KOTOR sucked because it wasn't an isometric game and Bioware was throwing away its legacy to again appeal to the lowest common dominator. Now Kotor is considered one of the best RPGs ever made and the definitive star wars game.  There is a consistence theme that results in when a game is released it is panned by the crowd that goes on and on about how great games where in the past. A decade rolls around and suddenly all those games that were panned on release are held up as shiny examples of great RPGs of the past.

 

Hell even games that i don't consider good are finding new support like DA2. I am seeing more posts and threads praising it as a game this past year then I saw in 2014. The pattern of talking sh!t about a new title and then seeing said title praised is so common with gamers that I no longer give any credence to people who make blanket statements about RPGs of the past.

 

I think that some past RPGs where great.

 

Vampire the masquerade: Bloodlines - This had the best precognitive moment in any RPG I every played. It was masterfully done and when you first play the game you are very likely to miss it. It also tackled mature themes that was not at all common on its release. It seemed to have an understanding of the goth/punk scene and was pretty good a portraying it in a game. If it wasn't for some game breaking bugs I would play this game more often.

 

KOTOR - had one of the most satisfying endings for an RPG I have every played.

 

BG2 - was a delight to discover for the first time and was very replayable (Except that starting dungeon OMG that was tiresome)

 

Oblivion - had the single best RPG experience that would likely never be duplicated by another player because I intended to be a mage but the guild didn't want me and sent me off to get recommendations. The first guild leader i went to see to get a recommendation tried to kill me so I roleplayed a character that said 'forget this  I am out of here if you don't want me' and decided to become a gladiator. They laughed at me and belittled me not making me feel all that welcome but I proved myself and progressed. Which ended with me killing the Champion and people all hating me in for it so I left. And it was because of a bug that killing the champion if you solved  a side quest in a given way it was considered a murder i was recruited by the brotherhood that wanted me to be a member of their family of assassins. They actually wanted me to join them. It was a synergy that couldn't be duplicated unless you played a character desperately seeking to belong to a group and who just happened to have picked the two guilds that in an order that resulted in them treating me like crap at the start and end for the arena quest arc. I really enjoyed that and this was my first game of oblivion so it will always have a greater impact for me then morrowind ever will. Even though I really enjoyed morrowind. Again not something that most player would experience as you'd have to have teh same character concept and had to have made the same choices I did to end up with this great feeling of acceptance and belonging. The general concept was I became a hero because I was insecure and wanted to belong, wanted people to like me.

 

Planescape: Torment - One of the best stories in an RPG ever. The best one where you have amnesia by far.

 

Yet i have also found more modern RPGs just as enjoyable

 

Dragon Age: origins - I think this is the single best IP in fantasy period. I think it is far superior to the Elder scrolls as an IP because it feels far more realistic in its design. Its religions feel more accurate, the politics seems to have more depth. I think both IPS handle history quite well however in that what we the character learn is often contradictory at best or utterly false. We learn history as it is taught not history as fact in both IPs.

 

ME1 - I still find this game magical because of Jennifer Hale. Giving me a voice made my character so much more real to me. This game forever change how i would view all RPGs past and present.

 

Skyrim - One of the best examples for me of filling the RPG exploration itch. With all the mods I use i can become so immersed in this game.

 

FO4 - The first Bethesda title where I saw them writing emotional scenes, creating complex companions and finally i have a fallout game where my characters don't end up all the same because i maxed out all my skills at 100. It is so nice to be able to create a character that isn't a boxing champ with a low str or a can sell ice in the artic with a 1 charisma. Or talk my way out of a any situation when i have all the charisma of a dog turd. It is so nice to actually require a high special stat to do certain things that are not some one off check in the story. You can't be a expert hacker with low intelligence any more. It has made character builds actually mean something beyond the first 10-12 levels.  

 

Witcher 3 - I love this game and it is one of the few games that actually has unintended consequences for choices.

 

Dragon age: Inquisition - I really enjoyed political/religious angle of the story and while I think it fell flat in many areas. It is one of the few RPGs that i enjoyed both the story and the combat. One of my main complaints with DA:O (which i love) was that the tactics system SUCKED. It was so detailed that if you had half a brain you could start combat go make a cup of coffee and return to collect loot. Any mechanic that lets the game play itself is an epic fail. No game should be able to play itself, it should REQUIRE the player to play. Not so Origins with the tactics system. DA:I however took teh combat of DA2 and kept the good while removing the bad. I don't think it is perfect, for example the tactical camera doesn't zoom out far enough but all in all I enjoy the fights in the game. 

 

 

I find that when people make blanket statements about RPGs with regards to old is better or newer is better it is usually because they have an agenda and almost always the truth isn't part of that agenda.

 

[My old RPG list and my New rpg list is not by any means comprehensive I just listed examples of a few rpgs from each "era" that I enjoyed. It doesn't include all the rpgs from either 'era' that i liked either.]

[Gothfather]

Where did I say "I think?" I intentionally did not say "I think" because it's not what I think, it's plain as day to anyone who has actually played a lot of these games that in general the quality has declined.

 

Saying what I said was "opinion" is just severe mischaracterization and effectively censorship, which is well... not good.

 

Moreover it's declined so severely in recent times as to not even really be able to stand on it's own, at this rate they'll just be eaten up by other companies that make better games now, even though they formerly were not capable of making necessarily as great games (such as Blizzard)

 

 

Err just because you didn't type "I think" doesn't make your post fact. It is an OPINION. You stating "it's plain as day" doesn't take a SUBJECTIVE opinion and make it objective fact.

 

You are full of it. The only mischaracterization happening is yours, trying to present your opinion as fact. And trying to claim that when people challenge you on your BS that it is censorship.