202 réponses à ce sujet

[Iralux]

Wow this thread has blown up. I wish I had checked back more often, so I could respond to people individually.

 

As it is, I'd like to make two points. If somebody wants me to respond to their post directly, I'll do so, but I'll mostly respond to what is being said most often.

 

 

1) I'm annoyed at all of the small details, but that doesn't mean Mass Effect isn't still one my favorite games. Criticizing a game doesn't mean I absolutely hate it or that I'm pissed off. And to be honest, Bioware produces some of the most feminist and LGBT friendly games out there. Granted, video games aren't known for being feminist/LGBT friendly so it's not a hard milestone to reach, but still. I just think there are still some progress yet to be made.

 

2) I don't think fan service is even stuff that attracts people to a game. Especially games like Mass Effect which are popular because of their gameplay, storyline, characters, and etc. If Samara/Benezia didn't show such excessive cleavage and Miranda didn't have her butt emphasized, I don't think anybody would really care. It serves no real purpose, and it makes characters extra sexualized when they have no reason to be.

 

3) Beauty isn't empowering because beauty is based on the standards of society. You feel empowered if you fit the beauty standards set forth simply because society relieves its pressure on you. Furthermore, if beauty is achieved through surgery or make up, that is only artificial 'empowerment' and only detrimental in the long run (such as my mom, or feels she cannot go out in public, even if it's just shopping, without putting on make up).

 

4) It is good for women to be confident in their sexuality, no doubt about that (especially since parts of society still discourages sexuality in women). But it is confidence, not sex, that is empowering.

 

5) There are lots of things wrong with sex work. For example, most of the women in prostitution want to get out, however are unable to for a variety of reasons, such as finances. I think prostitution should be illegal for the 'johns' and the 'pimps', but not the women themselves (i.e. the Nordic model). In pornography, there are many women who take drugs and alcohol just to deal with the abuse that is so very prevalent. It is an exploitative industry that doesn't in the slightest 'empower women' and there is so many problems with it that I could go on and on about for a very long time.

 

6) Chances are, most women in ME3 that wear dresses do so simply because the developers were lazy. But I still find it annoying because hundreds of years ago, that was considered the standard. If a woman wore jeans, she was ostracized because of it. I feel like Mass Effect went back in terms of equality by having so many women wear dresses. It could be a fashion thing, but I find that highly unlikely (especially considering how they all look a like and are so dull/boring).

 

7) A consort is said to be a person that helps others, and sometimes that is through sex. Basically, it's glorified prostitution. And sure, it's unlikely that it's anywhere near as exploitative as current industries. But it's still celebrates the idea that 'consent' can be bought, and that women are going out of their way to help the problems that men have. That women are 'kind' and 'generous souls' who dedicate their lives to helping others. For that matter, I don't see any case in which sex is necessary to help men with their problems. I'd be okay with it if there was no involvement of sex, and that there were male acolytes as well as female. As it is...

 

8) I don't like that female krogans are covered head to toe because it's as if even female krogans have to be 'beautiful'. Even their voices sound feminine in terms of human females. That is why I find it problematic.

 

9) I admit I never romanced Jack/Miranda, and this is only what I have heard. But apparently you get more development and closure with Jack/Miranda if you end up having sex with them.

 

 

And does anybody else find it somewhat ironic how some people are accusing me/feminism of freaking out and complaining about nothing, while they themselves are freaking out, announcing how much they hate feminism and how it ruins everything?

[Nicholas_]

Wow this thread has blown up. I wish I had checked back more often, so I could respond to people individually.

 

As it is, I'd like to make two points. If somebody wants me to respond to their post directly, I'll do so, but I'll mostly respond to what is being said most often.

 

 

1) I'm annoyed at all of the small details, but that doesn't mean Mass Effect isn't still one my favorite games. Criticizing a game doesn't mean I absolutely hate it or that I'm pissed off. And to be honest, Bioware produces some of the most feminist and LGBT friendly games out there. Granted, video games aren't known for being feminist/LGBT friendly so it's not a hard milestone to reach, but still. I just think there are still some progress yet to be made.

 

2) I don't think fan service is even stuff that attracts people to a game. Especially games like Mass Effect which are popular because of their gameplay, storyline, characters, and etc. If Samara/Benezia didn't show such excessive cleavage and Miranda didn't have her butt emphasized, I don't think anybody would really care. It serves no real purpose, and it makes characters extra sexualized when they have no reason to be.

 

3) Beauty isn't empowering because beauty is based on the standards of society. You feel empowered if you fit the beauty standards set forth simply because society relieves its pressure on you. Furthermore, if beauty is achieved through surgery or make up, that is only artificial 'empowerment' and only detrimental in the long run (such as my mom, or feels she cannot go out in public, even if it's just shopping, without putting on make up).

 

4) It is good for women to be confident in their sexuality, no doubt about that (especially since parts of society still discourages sexuality in women). But it is confidence, not sex, that is empowering.

 

5) There are lots of things wrong with sex work. For example, most of the women in prostitution want to get out, however are unable to for a variety of reasons, such as finances. I think prostitution should be illegal for the 'johns' and the 'pimps', but not the women themselves (i.e. the Nordic model). In pornography, there are many women who take drugs and alcohol just to deal with the abuse that is so very prevalent. It is an exploitative industry that doesn't in the slightest 'empower women' and there is so many problems with it that I could go on and on about for a very long time.

 

6) Chances are, most women in ME3 that wear dresses do so simply because the developers were lazy. But I still find it annoying because hundreds of years ago, that was considered the standard. If a woman wore jeans, she was ostracized because of it. I feel like Mass Effect went back in terms of equality by having so many women wear dresses. It could be a fashion thing, but I find that highly unlikely (especially considering how they all look a like and are so dull/boring).

 

7) A consort is said to be a person that helps others, and sometimes that is through sex. Basically, it's glorified prostitution. And sure, it's unlikely that it's anywhere near as exploitative as current industries. But it's still celebrates the idea that 'consent' can be bought, and that women are going out of their way to help the problems that men have. That women are 'kind' and 'generous souls' who dedicate their lives to helping others. For that matter, I don't see any case in which sex is necessary to help men with their problems. I'd be okay with it if there was no involvement of sex, and that there were male acolytes as well as female. As it is...

 

8) I don't like that female krogans are covered head to toe because it's as if even female krogans have to be 'beautiful'. Even their voices sound feminine in terms of human females. That is why I find it problematic.

 

9) I admit I never romanced Jack/Miranda, and this is only what I have heard. But apparently you get more development and closure with Jack/Miranda if you end up having sex with them.

 

 

And does anybody else find it somewhat ironic how some people are accusing me/feminism of freaking out and complaining about nothing, while they themselves are freaking out, announcing how much they hate feminism and how it ruins everything?

 

1) What the **** is a feminist/lgbt friendly game?

 

2) Why are you only discussing the females? Did you just happen to forget that Jacob has a basically complete copy of Miranda's scenes, it even states it in the wiki if you'd care to look it up, but muh muh muh triggers.  All of the men as I have stated are ripped, close or even over 200 pounds ranging from 6-8% bodyfat, that in itself is not attainable without getting on gear, but nah, those females that are slightly revealing oh Jaysus Christ!

 

3) No, people are attracted to healthy individuals, this has nothing to do with standards set by the media.  Since the dawn of time, male and females only want to mate with the highest order of humans so they may produce healthy offspring, all the media does is push 6 pack abs as fitness and that's it. 

 

4) Rofl

 

5) You think prostitution should be illegal for men but not for women, alright.  Also you say in pornography that women often take alcohol and drugs to cope with their job, did you not remember these same women chose to take up the profession, they were not forced into it so they have to live with their decision.  Yes it's such an "exploitative industry" where these same women choose to get into pornography through their own accord, again how is this  exploitative since they already know what the deal is beforehand, in that same sense wouldn't it be exploitative for men as well?

 

6) Seriously? Rofl you feminists honestly have nothing better to do with your time.  The only reason you're allowed to spread these childish opinions is because you've been given a platform to do so and you're abusing the hell out of it.

 

7) "But it's still celebrates the idea that 'consent' can be bought, and that women are going out of their way to help the problems that men have." Is there something wrong with that? Or are you just angry that they're helping men and not women because it's always a man's fault.  "That women are 'kind' and 'generous souls' who dedicate their lives to helping others" What's your point? Is that supposed to be a bad thing? "For that matter, I don't see any case in which sex is necessary to help men with their problems. I'd be okay with it if there was no involvement of sex, and that there were male acolytes as well as female. As it is..." It's probably because in a lot of case sex does help men with their problems since males on average tend to have a much higher sex drive than females do and the act of sex is seen more as a physical necessity as opposed to women which isn't like that at all.  Also the reason there are no male prostitution/consort that type of t hing is because men are the more horny gender, you can't have equality in every single position of life because fundementally, men and women are equal BUT we are DIFFERENT and there are too many variables to have true equality.

 

8) The female krogans, uh you mean the ONE female krogan we see Eve? Also what do you mean female krogans have to be beautiful? I do not understand the logic that you are attempting to use but are failing at.  Their voices sound feminine because Eve is ****** female, females naturally have a much higher pitch to their voice, it's called human biology, I'm sorry that you were not born male. 

 

9) Nothing to refute

 

This thread was created for the sole purpose of asking if mass effect if women hating, that should tell you enough.

 

Also to add something extra.  This can all be solved by saying "Why does it matter if you're offended by something?" Everyone gets offended about something, I get offended by things, do I automatically wish  for people to change just because I'm offended? No that's absurd and it's counter-productive because the world doesn't revolve around me or a set group of people. 

 

Also it's a ****** video game, get a life, go out, workout hard, wear better fitted clothing, smile more, take better care of your skin and be honest, you'll soon not care about trivial bullshit like this.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

You seem to care a lot about "trivial BS like this."

[Al Foley]

No.  The costumes may be a bit silly but one should judge a person on the content of their character not the quality of their latex. 

[CoM Solaufein]

No.  The costumes may be a bit silly but one should judge a person on the content of their character not the quality of their latex. 

Unless its Kate Beckinsale in Underworld.

[Iralux]

1) What the **** is a feminist/lgbt friendly game?

 

2) Why are you only discussing the females? Did you just happen to forget that Jacob has a basically complete copy of Miranda's scenes, it even states it in the wiki if you'd care to look it up, but muh muh muh triggers.  All of the men as I have stated are ripped, close or even over 200 pounds ranging from 6-8% bodyfat, that in itself is not attainable without getting on gear, but nah, those females that are slightly revealing oh Jaysus Christ!

 

3) No, people are attracted to healthy individuals, this has nothing to do with standards set by the media.  Since the dawn of time, male and females only want to mate with the highest order of humans so they may produce healthy offspring, all the media does is push 6 pack abs as fitness and that's it. 

 

4) Rofl

 

5) You think prostitution should be illegal for men but not for women, alright.  Also you say in pornography that women often take alcohol and drugs to cope with their job, did you not remember these same women chose to take up the profession, they were not forced into it so they have to live with their decision.  Yes it's such an "exploitative industry" where these same women choose to get into pornography through their own accord, again how is this  exploitative since they already know what the deal is beforehand, in that same sense wouldn't it be exploitative for men as well?

 

6) Seriously? Rofl you feminists honestly have nothing better to do with your time.  The only reason you're allowed to spread these childish opinions is because you've been given a platform to do so and you're abusing the hell out of it.

 

7) "But it's still celebrates the idea that 'consent' can be bought, and that women are going out of their way to help the problems that men have." Is there something wrong with that? Or are you just angry that they're helping men and not women because it's always a man's fault.  "That women are 'kind' and 'generous souls' who dedicate their lives to helping others" What's your point? Is that supposed to be a bad thing? "For that matter, I don't see any case in which sex is necessary to help men with their problems. I'd be okay with it if there was no involvement of sex, and that there were male acolytes as well as female. As it is..." It's probably because in a lot of case sex does help men with their problems since males on average tend to have a much higher sex drive than females do and the act of sex is seen more as a physical necessity as opposed to women which isn't like that at all.  Also the reason there are no male prostitution/consort that type of t hing is because men are the more horny gender, you can't have equality in every single position of life because fundementally, men and women are equal BUT we are DIFFERENT and there are too many variables to have true equality.

 

8) The female krogans, uh you mean the ONE female krogan we see Eve? Also what do you mean female krogans have to be beautiful? I do not understand the logic that you are attempting to use but are failing at.  Their voices sound feminine because Eve is ****** female, females naturally have a much higher pitch to their voice, it's called human biology, I'm sorry that you were not born male. 

 

9) Nothing to refute

 

This thread was created for the sole purpose of asking if mass effect if women hating, that should tell you enough.

 

Also to add something extra.  This can all be solved by saying "Why does it matter if you're offended by something?" Everyone gets offended about something, I get offended by things, do I automatically wish  for people to change just because I'm offended? No that's absurd and it's counter-productive because the world doesn't revolve around me or a set group of people. 

 

Also it's a ****** video game, get a life, go out, workout hard, wear better fitted clothing, smile more, take better care of your skin and be honest, you'll soon not care about trivial bullshit like this.

 

If a number was skipped, it's because I saw nothing substantial enough to respond to.

 

---

---

 

1) I think that's self-explanatory? Like, an LGBT friendly game is a game that includes LGBT characters? Kind of the opposite of a misogynist/homophobic game basically.

 

2) I'm only discussing females because this is in the topic of misogyny. Anyways, I've never noticed much fan service for the male characters. Sure, most of the male characters have a lot of muscle, but they ARE military. A decent amount of muscle is to be expected (which is why female Shepard's twig arms are so annoying). Also, could I have the link where it states Jacob has a complete copy of Miranda's scenes? Because I've never noticed.

 

(I've never mentioned triggers, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't make a straw man, ad hominem, or whatever it would be called.)

 

3) Except we aren't run by our instincts, and we desire more in a partner than just the possibility of healthy offspring. Not to mention that some beauty standards are actually unhealthy, i.e. thin waists and a 'thigh gap'. Then you have traits that don't even make much of a difference either way. Blonde hair, blue eyes, size of eyes, large breasts, long hair, white skin, small feet/hands, low height, belly button shape, no hair on legs/arms, no pubic hair, smooth skin (i.e. not calloused), and etc.

 

5) No, the 'Johns', or the person who 'buys' sex (male/female), should be prosecuted. The pimps (aka people who sell/profit from prositutes) should be prosecuted. The prositutes themselves, whether male or female, should not be criminalized. And there are lots of reasons why women might enter pornography. To escape poverty/debt, forced into it (i.e. sex trafficking or blackmail), believe it is good/fun/safe due to misinformation, fake job descriptions, and etc.

 

To be honest, there are lots of reasons why porn is bad. Testimonies [1] [2]. Documentaries [1] [2]. Books [1]. And just lots of stuff in general [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]

 

7)

a) Yes, the idea that consent can be 'bought' is wrong. And yes, I find it wrong that women are expected to go out of their way to help men. If the consort and acolytes were 50/50 men/women, I wouldn't mind.

 

B) Women are not innately selfless souls that dedicate their lives to helping others. The idea that all women (or only women) are selfless and completely caring is annoying. It's a stereotype that hinders women.

 

c) Sex is a physical necessity for men? Do you really believe that? Sex has a lot of benefits to it, but it's not necessary. And if a guy is horny or whatever, he can just masturbate or something. (Also, testosterone increases ones sex drive so they're in the 'mood' more often, but women want sex just as much as men do)

 

8) Every male krogan we see doesn't exactly...excell at physical attractiveness (in human standards anyways). However, when we see female krogans, we find elegant and colorful clothing designs that completely cover most of their body. For physical features, all we see are the eyes. I get the impression that this was purposefully done so that female krogans are more 'feminine' and 'pretty'.

 

As for their voices...yes, they are female, but that doesn't translate to higher pitched voices. Humans have sexually dimorphic vocal cords, so women have a higher pitched voice. Krogans aren't human, so human biology and human dimorphism does not apply to krogans. Considering how large krogan are, I would have expected low pitched, growly voices for both male and female krogan.

 

---

---

[vbibbi]

From what I gathered here you're just mad that there are virtual characters wearing slightly revealing clothing and that's meant to upset you?
 
If you're not a child then grow up, look at what the men wear and how they look, tight t-shirts, perfect muscular physiques (I'm ranging most likely 6-8% bodyfat at around 200+ pounds on average which is basically unattainable to the average man, but that's right let's just overlook that minor detail because everyone hates women wahhh) not to mention male shep's facei s actually that of a real life model.  See, me and most other guys don't actually care about things like that, we'd rather focus on the character development and gameplay not the cosmetics of characters like you people seem to do.
 
Do you think this is how the world works? Do you think just because you feel offended by something that it should instantly be changed next time even though it isn't your game and you never made it.  That isn't how the world works, you idiot, there is a reason why people do not respect sjw's, it's because they're still children even though many are in their adult years.
 
Go whine about how men oppress you somewhere else because I don't wanna hear it, I want to play good quality games, not bicker about if a game is ****** sexist Jesus Christ.

  

Your posterchild is Anita Sarkeesian who leeched hundreds of thousands of dollars to make some stupid video series which she never actually made.
 
I wonder why people would think feminism hates men? Oh, I wonder.  Mansplaining, manspreading are just a few terms that feminists use to get their point across that they hate men.  A man can actually get arressted for ****** spreading his legs on public transport, has the world gone absolutely crazy.  What if a woman spreads her legs, shouldn't she get fined or arrested too? Nah that's sexist but it isn't sexist if we do the exact same thing to a man.
 
All you have to do is browse tumblr and you will find thousands of women with names like "Proud misandrist" which does not help your cause at all.  There are countless, almost endless videos of women making dubiously sexist comments about men, here are just a few https://www.youtube....h?v=6PJtrVC44fE (Thankfully Richard debunked all of this ****), https://www.youtube....h?v=ZOXh5repOWI , https://www.youtube....h?v=Zi1gortW-Zs , .
 
Yeah I wonder why some people would think feminism is associated with hating men, gee I wonder.

  

I don't think so, when you express baseless statements and put them out there on a public forum, you are expected to recieve criticism or praise.
 
He/she can explain their stance on it, I'm waiting.

  

It's only a bait topic until fat, unnattractive man hating biggots whine enough to change games that non-retarded people enjoy.
 
That is why I hate feminism, the new wave is utter cancer on society.

  

1) What the **** is a feminist/lgbt friendly game?
 
2) Why are you only discussing the females? Did you just happen to forget that Jacob has a basically complete copy of Miranda's scenes, it even states it in the wiki if you'd care to look it up, but muh muh muh triggers.  All of the men as I have stated are ripped, close or even over 200 pounds ranging from 6-8% bodyfat, that in itself is not attainable without getting on gear, but nah, those females that are slightly revealing oh Jaysus Christ!
 
3) No, people are attracted to healthy individuals, this has nothing to do with standards set by the media.  Since the dawn of time, male and females only want to mate with the highest order of humans so they may produce healthy offspring, all the media does is push 6 pack abs as fitness and that's it. 
 
4) Rofl
 
5) You think prostitution should be illegal for men but not for women, alright.  Also you say in pornography that women often take alcohol and drugs to cope with their job, did you not remember these same women chose to take up the profession, they were not forced into it so they have to live with their decision.  Yes it's such an "exploitative industry" where these same women choose to get into pornography through their own accord, again how is this  exploitative since they already know what the deal is beforehand, in that same sense wouldn't it be exploitative for men as well?
 
6) Seriously? Rofl you feminists honestly have nothing better to do with your time.  The only reason you're allowed to spread these childish opinions is because you've been given a platform to do so and you're abusing the hell out of it.
 
7) "But it's still celebrates the idea that 'consent' can be bought, and that women are going out of their way to help the problems that men have." Is there something wrong with that? Or are you just angry that they're helping men and not women because it's always a man's fault.  "That women are 'kind' and 'generous souls' who dedicate their lives to helping others" What's your point? Is that supposed to be a bad thing? "For that matter, I don't see any case in which sex is necessary to help men with their problems. I'd be okay with it if there was no involvement of sex, and that there were male acolytes as well as female. As it is..." It's probably because in a lot of case sex does help men with their problems since males on average tend to have a much higher sex drive than females do and the act of sex is seen more as a physical necessity as opposed to women which isn't like that at all.  Also the reason there are no male prostitution/consort that type of t hing is because men are the more horny gender, you can't have equality in every single position of life because fundementally, men and women are equal BUT we are DIFFERENT and there are too many variables to have true equality.
 
8) The female krogans, uh you mean the ONE female krogan we see Eve? Also what do you mean female krogans have to be beautiful? I do not understand the logic that you are attempting to use but are failing at.  Their voices sound feminine because Eve is ****** female, females naturally have a much higher pitch to their voice, it's called human biology, I'm sorry that you were not born male. 
 
9) Nothing to refute
 
This thread was created for the sole purpose of asking if mass effect if women hating, that should tell you enough.
 
Also to add something extra.  This can all be solved by saying "Why does it matter if you're offended by something?" Everyone gets offended about something, I get offended by things, do I automatically wish  for people to change just because I'm offended? No that's absurd and it's counter-productive because the world doesn't revolve around me or a set group of people. 
 
Also it's a ****** video game, get a life, go out, workout hard, wear better fitted clothing, smile more, take better care of your skin and be honest, you'll soon not care about trivial bullshit like this.

I created an account on this forum specifically to respond to this thread.

[Undead Han]

A lot of the lore of the Asari was inspired by the history of ancient Greece.

 

The Consort is based on hetaerae.

 

Traditionally, historians of ancient Greece have distinguished between hetairai and pornai, another class of Greek prostitute. In contrast to pornai, who provided sex for a large number of clients in brothels or on the street, hetairai were thought to have had only a few men as clients at any one time, to have had long-term relationships with them, and to have provided companionship and intellectual stimulation as well as sex...

[KrrKs]

"You humans are all racist sexist!"

 

@Op and Nichlas: Do you even lift unbiased, and considerate human?

Seriously: You are both fools and should be eaten

 

Actual information

I'm not sure, if this is the place for somesuch anymore.

So 'prolly the last thing I'm going to post in here is this:

 

Spoiler

[  ] Reported
[X] No Bang
[  ] Those Poor Hamsters
[  ] TL;DR
[  ] Working As Intended™
[X] No
[  ] LoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooL
[X] BioWareMod
[  ] Tali's Sweat
[  ] Angry Pugs
[X] Inb4
[  ] Should Be Stickied
[X] What the actual f***?
[ ] Krogan Dream
[X] I Should Go
[  ] I Heartily Endorse This Product and/or Service
[  ] Tech Armor!
[  ] But I Hardly Know'er!
[X] Airlock
[X] And We Are Done Here
[X] Butthurt/Nerdrage
[  ] GRAAAAAAAAAAGH!
[  ] Space Magic
[X] Needs More Quarian Bum Bum
[  ] Quote Pyramids
[X] Stay Classy, BSN

BSN Response Form

 

/thread

[Iakus]

No.  The costumes may be a bit silly but one should judge a person on the content of their character not the quality of their latex. 

I can judge their art designers, though

[The Real Pearl #2]

I have no idea what's going in this thread, i just came here to sh1tpost

[Natashina]

As someone that spent quite some time discussing this subject, I think you have some decent points. However, you keep losing me. Forgive the lack of proper order to your responses, but the quote system is being a royal pain in the butt again.

1) I do believe that you're deliberately ignoring real world history. Consorts weren't just about sex, which is something that even the workers in ME1 mention. Here's my wiki link. https://en.m.wikiped...sans_in_history

Also, look up geishas. That's what the Consort reminded me of. Even the makeup seemed to be a nod to that subculture.

2) Regarding the butt-cam, I do think it was a little bit in poor taste. It wasn't seeing her butt that was the problem. I'm bisexual and I can appreciate a fine female backside. My main problem was that it kept coming up when talking about her sister. I grabbed the DLC armor for her and the butt-cam became a lot less noticible. Plus, I'm not sure if you knew this, but BioWare devs themselves have brought up the butt-cam as an example of "making our own mistakes."

3) I'm actually a little shocked and a little saddened over this insistance that porn and everything involving sex workers is bad. I'm a feminist, have been for years. Because I am one, and I feel that women should have the right to live their life, I'm supportive of legal brothels. Folks aren't going to stop going to a stranger for sex, and all the laws in the land won't change that. Make it safe, make it taxable and get over the stigma. Also, I take it you're not married? I think porn is healthy in a long term relationship. Of course people can get addicted, but I've seen people get addicted to a particular potato chip. I've seen people get dangerously addicted to MMOs, to the point of losing their home.

4) Jack to me wasn't fan service at all. My first thought upon seeing her was, "Wow. If she can get away with wearing that in this setting, she's dangerous." Sure enough, I was correct. Now, the face masks were pretty silly, as well as the exposed flesh everywhere. My problem with that is more due to gameplay. It was jarring going from ME1 with hazard planets to ME2 with breather masks.

5) Second note about Jack: The friendship does abruptly end as a FemShep. I mean, Jack says "I'm not into the girls club thing, okay?" Then if you talk to her after that, she uses her (and Aria's) favorite word. It is true that the best way to see all of her character development is through the romance, and I'd rather see that not happen again. So I do agree with you there. In regards to Miranda, we'll agree to disagree. She's not my favorite character in ME2, but I did like the progress between her and Shep.

5) I think you're looking too deeply into the dresses/long tunics. There are plenty of female characters that don't wear dresses throughout the series. It's probably just a fashion trend, one that could change in ME:A. The mercs aren't running around in dresses .Neither are the cops, the commandos, and others that are in hazardous lines of work.

6) I'm not sure why you're so hung up about the Krogan woman being fully clothed. I honestly feel it has zero to do with any sort of overarching message by BioWare. See, there is several animals don't have a lot of sexual dimorphism. Not all, as it's easy to tell a boy bird from a girl bird due to plumage. On the other hand, most reptiles are much harder to identify. I think that the Eve being covered up was:

1) Possibly a shaman thing among the women. The only female we've met was a shaman, and perhaps that was their form of dress.

2) An easy way to denote gender to the player. I also completely disagree about her voice. Sure, it was feminine, but it isn't like she sounded like Liara. Again, I don't think it was any sort of statement by BioWare.

I know you have good intentions, but you might want to step back and take a breath. I'm not trying to dismiss you, nor invalidate your opinions. I do completely disagree though. I do think that they didn't think some of this out as well as they could have, and it lead to some accidental sexism. Yet, I see no hatred towards women in the series. At all. I see some stereotypes, but that can be said for characters throughout the series, regardless of gender.

[Undead Han]

I don't think misogynist is the right word to use. Misogyny is contempt for women, which doesn't necessarily always go hand-in-hand with sexualizing female characters. It would be misogynistic perhaps if characters like Samara or Miranda were written in a way that also made them less intelligent or competent or than their male counterparts, or written in a way that they served no other purpose in the story other than being eye candy, but that isn't really the case with either of them. They're both strong female characters that are every bit as equal to the males on Shepard's Dirty Dozen, and are no less fleshed out as characters than the male squadmates.

 

On the points you raised...

 

1. This was indeed a problem, and was widely criticized at the time. There's nothing wrong with writing or designing female characters that have sex appeal and use it, but the camera angles that zoomed in on and lingered on her backside during conversations was both gratuitous and juvenile. I'd argue that the butt cam was the most gratuitous content in the entire trilogy, despite the nudity in ME1 (which wasn't gratuitous at all) causing a news controversy.

 

2. I agree with Miranda and Samara. Both characters going into battle in catsuits and heels, in Samara's case unzipped to the navel, was a little silly. Like the butt cam, it felt gratuitous. I didn't see Jack as sexualized at all though. After all she was bald and was practically flat-chested. Neither of those things would be the case if she were designed with fanservice for straight/bi men in mind. I think the decision to have her not wearing much clothing was to showcase the tattoos she was covered in, which like the shaved head, is not what men typically find sexy. (of course there always exceptions)

 

3. There are tons of strip clubs in the real world too, and they will likely continue to exist in the 23rd Century. That they also exist in the fictional Mass Effect universe is not necessarily a sign of sexism on the part of the writers. Quite frankly Afterlife would have been boring if it was portrayed as a bit more tame. If a pirate is going to call a nightclub as home base, it should have a somewhat seedy, underworld atmosphere. Half-naked people cavorting on stage is a part of that.

 

4. That one isn't really true. There are plenty of human characters throughout the series who are wearing Alliance or C-Sec uniforms, or those ugly colonist outfits. They all have pants rather than skirts or dresses. Every female squadmate also wears pants much more frequently than they wear dresses. That said...what's wrong with dresses, anyway? 

 

5. This is a game design issue, not one of sexism. I seriously doubt the people designing the game support female characters wearing something like a burqa. It was done with female Krogan so that they didn't have to design an entirely unique character model.

 

6. I covered this one already, but much of the Asari lore was loosely based on that of ancient Greece. Being organized into city-states, having a governmental system of direct democracy, Thessia being derived from Thessaly, Athame from Athena, maiden, mother and crone being the three life stages ect.

 

The Consort was a part of that, as she's quite obviously based on a hetaira. While all prostitutes are always stigmatized today, that hasn't always been the case historically. Women like Aspasia or Thargelia were among the most famous people of their era, and the Byzantine Empress Theodora is thought to have been a courtesan earlier in her life. Acca Larentia, a famous Roman courtesan, bequeathed her fortune to the Roman people when she died, and was later deified for it. The Romans literally had a prostitute as one of the goddesses in their pantheon. On Veneralia, a feast day honoring both Venus and Fortuna, the Roman goddesses of love and luck, matrons (married women) joined prostitutes in ritually cleansing and clothing a statue of Fortuna at her temple. The view of prostitutes and prostitution was often a lot more complicated in the ancient world than it is today.

 

I've rambled a bit, but with our own history in mind I don't think it is particularly implausible that the Consort would be more respected than someone in her position would be today, in the real world.

 

Regarding prostitutes  today, I think the bigger problem not that some women or men choose to have sex for money,  how our culture views them. All that sex-shaming bullshit is a Victorian era relic that has absolutely nothing to do with feminism. Why should anyone care why two or more consenting adults have sex, or how often? Quite frankly it shouldn't be anyone's business except the people involved. It definitely shouldn't be government's business. Prostitution is never going away anyway, no matter how many laws a government passes against it. We'd be far better off legalizing it and taxing it. The sex workers themselves would certainly be far better off. Legalization is the way to go if you really care about protecting the people involved. Legalization would remove the pimps, provide greater legal protection from abuse, and mandate regular medical checkups. 

 

7. That one isn't unique to female characters. Thane and Steve also get personal issues sorted by getting involved in new romantic relationships.

[Steelcan]

people conflate sexist and misogynist too much

[Iralux]

There is more than a single type of misogyny. Yes, we all know about blatant misogyny (using female slurs, strict gender roles, advocating for legal rape, and etc.), but there is also implicit misogyny. The type of misogyny that results from the subconscious. For example, parents tend to interrupt their daughters more often than they interrupt their sons. It's not a conscious decision, but the fact of the matter is, they're still misogynist. Sexist is applicable too.

 

That doesn't mean that a misogynist is always a bad person. It just means that have work to be done.

 

 

@Natashina

 

1) Just because it reflects history from a long time period ago, doesn't mean it should be implemented in a sci-fi universe. Also, my problem with the consort wasn't that it was 'contradictory', but that it featured prostitution as a central component to society. More on that for #3.

 

---

 

2) I'm bisexual as well and I can appreciate a nice figure. My problem is that it was so highly focused on, that it was blatantly "HEY LOOK AT THIS". It seemed objectifying to be honest. And I'm glad that BioWare devs regret it, hopefully ME:A won't be a repeat then ^^

 

---

 

3a) First of all, when you say 'sex workers', I assume you mean prostitution. And there is a lot of misinformation out there involving it. For example, there have been tons of studies out there that show AT LEAST 80% (sometimes as high as ~96%) of women in prostitution WANT to leave, but they can't due to lack of money or food. That's not to mention the incredibly high link between prostitution and sex trafficking.

 

Here are some basic statistics:

 

http://imgur.com/fdZoegb.png

 

Here are some basic resources (prostitutionresearch is hosting a lot of full pdf files of studies):

 

http://www.psychiatr...sexual-violence

http://www.prostitut...rostitution.pdf

http://www.prostitut...s the Price.pdf

http://www.prostitut...rostitution.pdf

http://www.prostitut...tasha_trade.pdf

http://www.prostitut... Inequality.pdf

http://www.prostitut...n9Countries.pdf

http://www.prostitut...Project_WEB.pdf

 

Germany legalized prostitution and brothels. What happened after this? A HUGE increase in demand for prostitution. That means more women who are being exploited. It also means Germany is gaining a huge amount of money by selling sex. Furthermore, the number of humans being trafficked increased. It also meant it became that much more difficult to target abusive pimps. It became that much more difficult to monitor everything.

 

http://www.huffingto..._b_8037820.html

http://nypost.com/20...titution-safer/

http://www.newstates...k-germanys-mega

http://s.telegraph.c...me-to-paradise/

 

No, it's not legalization that will stop anything. It's decriminalization of prostitution. Make it illegal for the johns to buy 'sex' and illegal for the pimps to sell 'sex'. Basically, the Nordic model. It's the best solution possible as it decreases the demand for prostitution. Furthermore, the Nordic model adds support structures to help women get out of prostitution.

 

---

 

3b) No, I'm only 20, so marriage isn't really something I'm interested in thinking about right now. And no, porn is not good for healthy relationships.

 

A) The entire porn industry abuses women to a severe degree. Read some of these testimonies

 

https://www.shelleyl...n.com/pornstars

http://commiefaggot....com/tagged/porn

http://www.antiporno...rm_stories.html

http://www.fightthen...popular-scenes/

http://www.idealistr...-uncomfortable/

 

 

B) If you can read those testimonies and still tell me you are okay with watching porn, then here are some documentaries. 

 

http://www.antiporno...easure_doc.html

http://www.antiporno...umentaries.html

 

C) https://www1.umn.edu...Pornography.pdf

 

HIGHLIGHT: Found that men who watch porn slowly escalate into desiring more abusive porn. They became more callous towards women. There was an increase in accepting the idea of "male dominance" in relationships. Their support of feminism dropped sharply. And finally, the subjects trivialized rape as a criminal offense. This is based on 'massive exposure' to pornography, or around 5 hours of porn per week for 6 weeks.

 

This is the only immediate study I found after 2 minutes of searching. I'm sure I could find others if you really want me to look for more. Of course, a recent problem is that there are universities/institutions banning research on porn because it have permanent, negative effects attached to it. I'll also try to look for the source research ban if you want.

 

---

 

4) Yeah, Jack is less fan service and more just how her character is. Samara/Benezia are my main concerns regarding fan service. Granted, I still would have chosen another design for Jack, but whatever.

 

---

 

5) Like I said recently, I never actually romanced Jack and Miranda, this is only what I've heard. So I can't really say much on this topic.

 

---

 

6) The women who aren't in hazardous lines of work almost always wear dresses. That is my problem. It seems far too much like the Mass Effect universe takes place in 1850 or something. But yeah, I'd take a guess that the developers made so many minor characters wear dresses simply because it'd take more effort for multiple outfits. As it is, the dresses can easily be recolored. Not so much misogyny, just something that really irritates me.

 

And idk, the dresses are really dull and too similar to each other, so I have a hard time seeing it as a fashion trend.

 

(and btw, you repeated #5 twice)

 

---

 

7) 

 

1) There are scenes of other krogan females that also are covered head to toe. One is if Eve died, in which case you see another female krogan covered head to toe carrying a baby. Another I'm not exactly sure where it is from, but here it is: http://vignette3.wik...=20130526122923

 

2) I just think she should have had a much deeper and/or growly voice, one that's far more imposing. Closer to Wrex's voice, not a human females voice. I feel like giving her the higher voice and covering a krogan from head to toe is imposing the idea that women should be pretty, that they should fit within certain categories.

 

---

 

And um, good intentions? I guess I was unclear, but I only wanted to discuss this and bring up some of my criticism towards the game. I didn't want/expect to change anything about BioWare/Mass Effect from this post. I mean, it's good to have your beliefs/opinions challenged once in a while. Even if I don't change my stance much, it gets me thinking more critically and even solidifies my stance. As a bonus, it gets others thinking too.

[Draining Dragon]

No.

Next.

[Iralux]

@Han Shot First

 

 

 

1) I'd be willing to debate about female characters that have/use sex appeal (cause unless male characters are also using sex appeal, I don't think it's very equal). But I'd prefer if we agreed to disagree on that note.

 

---

 

2) I guess my main problem with Jack's character design is the belts covering her nipples and going around her neck. To be honest, I'd rather her go topless than that. A sports bra would have been better, or a leather, sleeveless jacket that's open. As for ME3, I don't like the weird bandage bra. Just wrapping her chest would have been much more appreciated.

 

(Also, nearly flat chested? Pft, she's at least a high A cup, maybe low

 

---

 

3) I'm going to have to disagree with you here. It's my hope that strip clubs will be severely reduced by the 23rd century. And yeah, while it'd make sense on Afterlife, since crime is always going to exist, I don't like that it was there on the Citadel. I mean, the Citadel only has a population of 13 million. The asari first took control of the Citadel, and it's highly unlikely they would allow strip clubs. The salarians probably wouldn't have any interest in strip clubs. The Volus, Elcor, and Hanar problem don't care (or even have strip clubs). I also can't imagine the turians working towards having strip clubs.

 

But all of a sudden humans enter the stage and strip clubs are super popular?

 

---

 

4) Yeah, when I mentioned female characters mostly wearing dresses, I was referring to civilian women. And as for what's wrong with dresses, well, they're not exactly the sort of outfit you pick out daily. It just reminds me far too much of a century or two ago, where women wore basically just dresses, and to do otherwise would result in punishment (i.e. bad looks, comments, peer pressure, and etc). Not to mention that all the dresses look the same, which isn't really fashionable.

 

Like I said last post though, this was probably more because the developers were not willing to create extra outfits. It's irritating, but whatever.

 

---

 

5) Yeah, I suppose that makes sense, just like what I mentioned above. Still, I would have preferred at least a more krogan-like female voice rather than a human-line female voice.

 

---

 

6) If the asari are loosely based on ancient Greece, than having the Consort isn't really necessary. Especially because I can't imagine an asexual species ever needing a consort. And again, ancient history is filled with misogyny.

 

Also, my last post covered a lot of my views on prostitution. Key points though:

 

a) The payment of money for sexual 'services' isn't really consent, especially given that many women in prostitution are desperate for some sort of financial income.

I rarely see sex-shaming, nor is that why I'm advocating here.

c) Legalizing it doesn't work, as we can see from Germany. It just creates a higher demand, more women in prositution, more pimps, more abuse, and a lot of tax money given to the government. Sex trafficking rates go up, and it promotes an unhealthy idea that men can buy the bodies of women. Decriminalizing prostitution is the ideal model. Punish the 'Johns' and the 'Pimps', while creating a safety net to help those out of prositution.

 

---

 

7) Really? To be honest, I've never romanced anybody but Liara. I'm going to have to see just what the romance options for all the characters are like.

[Natashina]

I'm 36. I've been married for 10 years in June, with the same person, and we've been together for 12 years. Trust me when I say that porn can be very healthy for a long term relationship. Talking about fantasies and desires is good for a marriage. I'm also not in an abusive and failing marriage either, same with my mom and everyone else I know. And also, it isn't just men that watch porn, unless it's only men watching porn that's supposed to be bad. There are many couples that watch porn together.

It hasn't destroyed my marriage, or my parent's marriage, or the marriage of our best man (who's been married for 11 years to a lady with 4 boys,) or the relationship of my best friend (him and his girl watch porn together.) In fact, the marriages I've personally witnessed failing had nothing at all to do with porn. I'm basing this off of life experience, so I can agree to disagree.

As far as the testimonies go, it's unfortunate but that can happen anywhere. I did a google search with interviews and testimonials of adult actors and guess what? Most of them love(d) their jobs and were out-and-outright offended that they were being told that they were being exploited. It just goes to show that there is two sides to this, but I'm not going to link a bunch of interviews with adult stars onto a T-rated site. The mods have been pretty strict as of late, so I'd rather not risk it.

Did you know that prositution is legal in Nevada, and it was also legal in Rhode Island (due to a loophole) for six years here in the US? See, here's a study that it shows that legal prostitution in RI reduced rape and STDs: http://www.dailymail...tions-drop.html

Here's a Time article that talks about places like New Zealand with legalized prostitution: http://time.com/3005...t-prostitution/

Here's another article that shows sexual based crime dropping due to porn: https://www.scienced...01130111326.htm

For as many that might have come from abusive or desperate situtations, many of them are paying for college and do leave the sex industry once they get their money saved. Which is 3-5 years or so. They don't all come from broken homes and desperate situations. Some do it because they enjoy sex, and they enjoy meeting people. Sometimes their jobs don't even involve sex at all...just like the Consort. Sometimes it's a lonely widower that just needs someone to talk to.

Han is right about the Greek, but please look up geishas. They are still around in the 21st century, and the tradition goes back centuries. They were there for companionship and social gatherings, where they would do things like pour tea, learn the art of conversation, play music and dance. Many of them didn't have sex at all. Some became beloved mistresses to men that were in an arranged marriage.

I seriously doubt the various races aren't going to stop enjoing the sights of a lightly clothed dancer. Those aren't even strip clubs in the ME series; and the only one you can get a clothed lapdance is in ME1. I've been to a RL strip club, and those are either topless or fully nude. Strippers by definition strip off their clothes. You can't do that if they are just dancing in skimpy outfits. Plus, the asari are the most sexually open race. They have to be, in order to prevent things like AY due to "pure bloods."

They also don't have a lot of sexual hangups, which I noticed a lot throughout the series. Sometimes for better, sometimes to very uncomfortable levels. If anything, Shiala in ME2 touching my Shep's cheek without permission made me more uneasy than the Consort ever could. She goes from sympathic villian to touching my Shep's cheek, which weirded me out. I would have happily taken some rengegade points to get her to back off.

As far as no Volus strip clubs, we never saw their homeworld, so strippers might have been there for all we know. There is a Volus that's trying (and failing) to hit on an Asari store worker in ME2. Otherwise they have to be in pressurized suits, and stripping would lead to a messy death for the dancer. Elcor? Not many of them on the Citadel in the first place. We also never go to their homeworld, so we don't know what the culture might have thought about strip clubs and legal sex.

Hanar? Putting aside the Fornax, how about the one that had an asari as a mistress? We can't really say one way or the other. They might have had underwater dance clubs and brothels for all we know.

Also, do we know that it was humans that were the reason for dance clubs at all? I think it's a little silly to presume that strip clubs were done because of humans. Turians can enjoy such places (we do see one for a human's bachelor party, and he starts to check out the dancer) and I can easily imagine the drell as well.

Personally, I hope by the 23rd century, brothels are legal, regulated, taxed. I will never understand why it's okay to give something away for free, but the second someone turns that into selling, it's suddenly awful and wrong. I read the Germany articles and it looked to me like the authors were deliberately cherry picking their information to prove their point.

In any case, nice debate, and I don't think I can add anything else on this topic. I've got some things to do, but you have a good one.

[Lady Artifice]

Your posterchild is Anita Sarkeesian who leeched hundreds of thousands of dollars to make some stupid video series which she never actually made.

 

-Snip-

 

Anita Sarkeesan is not a feminist poster child. Even setting aside her dubious credibility, she's nowhere close to well known enough to be a feminist poster child.

 

Want to start naming feminist icons? Try Malala Youfsafzai or Louisa May Alcott.

 

As for the rest. Yes, you have encountered misandry on the internet. Of course you have, prejudice exists everywhere, in any form you can think of. It does not change the definition of the word "feminism," not even when people misuse it.

[DomeWing333]

it promotes an unhealthy idea that men can buy the bodies of women.

It promotes the idea that people can pay money to utilize aspects of each other's bodies. Just like any other service job. Ever used a moving company or delivery service? Is buying someone's body to get your rocks off for the evening really so much worse than buying someone's body to lug your 300 lbs refrigerator, king-sized bed, and entire living room set up three flights of stairs?

[Andrew Lucas]

Feminism Sucks. SJWs Sucks. This thread sucks.

[Solace]

Just going to use a real-life example. There are go go dancers that absolutely love what they do, and do not feel degraded by it. there are women who cover their entire body, and do not feel oppressed. it's up to each individual woman to decide what they feel is degrading to them. The women/men who try to decide what is degrading to women as a whole are wrong.

[Cainhurst Crow]

If Dragon Age taught me anything it's that there just shouldn't be a main character at all, nor side characters. Inquisition had different animations for male and female, you could pick multiple races to not even be human, be any sexuality you wanted without anyone judging you negatively for it, and there was a **** ton of tastefully done content addressing these issues that while a bit to hand-holding-psa like in some cases, were well done in others and non-distracting from the story or setting. They even managed to include a transgender character to your motley crew and a knight at that, two if you consider one of the characters mentioned is a transgender woman, and made it not feel like a sore thumb in the world. Hell most woman dress in armor, there were male and female prostitutes, and the males sometimes wore more provocative outfits then the woman. ((Looking at you Saarebas, you and your freaky borderline bondhage gear. Also everything iron bull related)).

And as we all know on these forums, nobody had any complaints about the game, and all give fair assessments which praise the things bioware tried while acknowledging the shortcomings as well.

That's why synthesis is the best ending to base a new series off. If everyone's a robot, nobody can claim sexism or racism or trasnphobia in a world where all sexes, races, and genders are the same, regardless of choice. Just make everything an androgynous clump of memetic metal, nobody will be able to tell what they're supposed to prescribe to it.

 

You can't hate woman if no woman exist and we're all just techobeings colonizing a new world with our glowing green parts.

[Natashina]

Feminism Sucks. SJWs Sucks. This thread sucks.

I take it you missed it when I said that I consider myself a feminist in my first post in the thread. All radicals of a group tend to make the rest look bad, and there is definitely multiple branches of feminism. The radicials are a minority, but their shouting tends to drown everyone out.

Let me start this by saying thanks for the like. Also, I understand where you are coming from, but I feel should offer a different side of things.

SJW I consider to be a meaningless insult at this point. I've seen it thrown around so often, from requests for blonde characters to discussion about archetypes to threads like this I just tune it out. When I've read in the last couple of weeks that SJWs are the reason for no blondes for future ME games (the voting for Shep's look aside, since I think that whole thing was a clusterbomb,) or when I read someone that claimed to be anti-SJW that very seriously accused Cassandra of raping their character (like what I witnessed last February), I find it hard to take any of it seriously. Yeah, that happened and I wish to the Gods it wasn't the case.

Before anyone asks, they acted like they were anti-feminist/anti-SJW and didn't just claim to be either. You know, they thought that there was "too much gay content"; would come into a thread about the advertising for a lady IQ to tell us we were wasting our time; that all feminists were radicals that sucked. I don't agree, but whatever. They are entitled to their opnion and the one thing I've learned as I've gotten older is to pick your battles.

Then they started accusing Cassandra, sodding Cassandra out of all characters of rape. Well, see, it was because there was no specific prompt stating that the IQ and Cass were gonna get it on. So it must be rape, which left me thudding my head into my desk. At first, several posters (including me) thought they were just having a fun time trolling. But the insistence went on for pages, and they actually tweeted David Gaider to accuse him of making Cassandra rape the player. If anyone is curious, I can dig up the link to the thread.

This was about a year ago. After that, I laugh at the whole "SJWs suck" remarks. I can completely understand being anti-radicial, and not wanting a world of participation trophes. Where foul language is always scrubbed, where housewives like me are just "catering to a man." Where folks like Tipper Gore try to ban music the don't like, and it takes a congressional heaing to avoid it. Where everyone freaks the hell out over a pasty being exposed on national TV during a football game. Where a guy is made to feel like a beast just for having traditionally male interests.

I get that, and I've gotten some flak from the radicals as well. The worst is being told when someone found out I was a housewife, "Oh, you poor thing. You're just enslaved by society's notion of what you should be doing." When I told them (on the BSN one night,) that I'm actually happy like that and have a good marriage, they went off, stating that I was "part of the problem with the male dominated society." My reaction was to put them on ignore.

I get that, I really do, but SJW doesn't work well as a term anymore. Again, when I've seen folks accuse posters of being SJWs over something like a Native American preset face for the CC (the guy didn't want it for "inclusion," he wanted it just because it was something different,) or blondes, I can't take any of that seriously. No offense, but I just can't. I've even talked to folks that are anti-polictical correctness/anti SJW/whatever, and it's amazing to me how much both "sides" have in common.

Forgive the length and the OT, but I wanted to share my thoughts about the whole SJW thing.

[Andrew Lucas]

I take it you missed it when I said that I consider myself a feminist in my first post in the thread. All radicals of a group tend to make the rest look bad, and there is definitely multiple branches of feminism. The radicials are a minority, but their shouting tends to drown everyone out.
Let me start this by saying thanks for the like. Also, I understand where you are coming from, but I feel should offer a different side of things.
SJW I consider to be a meaningless insult at this point. I've seen it thrown around so often, from requests for blonde characters to discussion about archetypes to threads like this I just tune it out. When I've read in the last couple of weeks that SJWs are the reason for no blondes for future ME games (the voting for Shep's look aside, since I think that whole thing was a clusterbomb,) or when I read someone that claimed to be anti-SJW that very seriously accused Cassandra of raping their character (like what I witnessed last February), I find it hard to take any of it seriously. Yeah, that happened and I wish to the Gods it wasn't the case.
Before anyone asks, they acted like they were anti-feminist/anti-SJW and didn't just claim to be either. You know, they thought that there was "too much gay content"; would come into a thread about the advertising for a lady IQ to tell us we were wasting our time; that all feminists were radicals that sucked. I don't agree, but whatever. They are entitled to their opnion and the one thing I've learned as I've gotten older is to pick your battles.
Then they started accusing Cassandra, sodding Cassandra out of all characters of rape. Well, see, it was because there was no specific prompt stating that the IQ and Cass were gonna get it on. So it must be rape, which left me thudding my head into my desk. At first, several posters (including me) thought they were just having a fun time trolling. But the insistence went on for pages, and they actually tweeted David Gaider to accuse him of making Cassandra rape the player. If anyone is curious, I can dig up the link to the thread.
This was about a year ago. After that, I laugh at the whole "SJWs suck" remarks. I can completely understand being anti-radicial, and not wanting a world of participation trophes. Where foul language is always scrubbed, where housewives like me are just "catering to a man." Where folks like Tipper Gore try to ban music the don't like, and it takes a congressional heaing to avoid it. Where everyone freaks the hell out over a pasty being exposed on national TV during a football game. Where a guy is made to feel like a beast just for having traditionally male interests.
I get that, and I've gotten some flak from the radicals as well. The worst is being told when someone found out I was a housewife, "Oh, you poor thing. You're just enslaved by society's notion of what you should be doing." When I told them (on the BSN one night,) that I'm actually happy like that and have a good marriage, they went off, stating that I was "part of the problem with the male dominated society." My reaction was to put them on ignore.
I get that, I really do, but SJW doesn't work well as a term anymore. Again, when I've seen folks accuse posters of being SJWs over something like a Native American preset face for the CC (the guy didn't want it for "inclusion," he wanted it just because it was something different,) or blondes, I can't take any of that seriously. No offense, but I just can't. I've even talked to folks that are anti-polictical correctness/anti SJW/whatever, and it's amazing to me how much both "sides" have in common.
Forgive the length and the OT, but I wanted to share my thoughts about the whole SJW thing.

Great post. I agree with most points. But I still think the term applies to a lot of stuff extremist people do out there, and when you get to see that in a daily basis, it gets hard to endure. That's why I stand by the notion that Western feminism shouldn't exist, and all extremists should just throwselves out of the airlock. Those who oppose such nonsense, have nothing in common with them, they aren't trying to force some agenda over people's faces. You seem to be a more reasonable woman, and one of fews that I've met when it comes to feminism, but I don't really consider you one