25 replies to this topic

[Iralux]

I always get annoyed if you ask Aethyta "Don't you mean mother?" and she responds calling you an "anthropocentric bag of dicks". Because really, unless you're an asari, there are two sexes, male and female. Father implies male, and mother implies female.

 

I'd understand if there was an asari specific term for the "mother" and the "father" and this was just a result of poor translation. But then Aethyta wouldn't react like she did. And really, for a species with just a single sex, I don't see why there is a need to differentiate between the parents outside of medical terminology.

 

And it's kind of insulting to say that you could only be the mother if you gave birth to the child. Does that mean any adopted asari has no mother/father, just 'guardians'? What about non-asari bondmates? Would they be considered the father as well? It's especially strange since the asari are known for their diplomatic skills; asari and non-asari would likely have different ideas of what 'father' means.

 

Is there any real reason for this? Like why did the writers make that decision?

[Treacherous J Slither]

I always get annoyed if you ask Aethyta "Don't you mean mother?" and she responds calling you an "anthropocentric bag of dicks". Because really, unless you're an asari, there are two sexes, male and female. Father implies male, and mother implies female.

I'd understand if there was an asari specific term for the "mother" and the "father" and this was just a result of poor translation. But then Aethyta wouldn't react like she did. And really, for a species with just a single sex, I don't see why there is a need to differentiate between the parents outside of medical terminology.

And it's kind of insulting to say that you could only be the mother if you gave birth to the child. Does that mean any adopted asari has no mother/father, just 'guardians'? What about non-asari bondmates? Would they be considered the father as well? It's especially strange since the asari are known for their diplomatic skills; asari and non-asari would likely have different ideas of what 'father' means.

Is there any real reason for this? Like why did the writers make that decision?

It wasn't fully thought out is all. Even when using the imagination we are using the real world as a base which can result in our creations being too similar to what we already know to the point where things don't make a lot of sense if it's supposed to be different from us.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

With Asari the non-birthing parent is the father. Or at least that's how your UT translates the Asari word. You must also remember that Shepard isn't very bright. Shepard thought Asari needed other species to reproduce. Liara set Shepard straight in ME1: "Think Shepard. Our species would have died out long ago if we couldn't reproduce with our own kind."

 

So regardless of if the Asari are entirely female, the distinction between the birthing parent and non-birthing parent is very important. If Liara were to have had a child with femShep, on the Asari birth certificate, femShep would be listed as the father. Like I said their word probably loosely translates to father. It's worked like this for thousands of years. They have a matriarchal society. The family name is passed down through the birth mother. Why would they change it now?

 

Now an Asari put up for adoption. I would assume she would take on the name of the Asari who adopted her. But I really don't think we have to worry about this because children don't exist in the Mass Effect Universe. There was only one child in the entire MEU and it was a figment of Shepard's mind - ventboy who later became Starbrat. The only children came after The Shepard gave his/her life for the sins of the galaxy and if those exist at all they were Krogan. We know this to be true.

[KrrKs]

The family name is passed down through the birth mother.

Are you making this up, or is there confirmation for this somewhere?

I'm wondering about Asari names, because we know only one (either first or family) name of most Asari met.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Are you making this up, or is there confirmation for this somewhere?

I'm wondering about Asari names, because we know only one (either first or family) name of most Asari met.

 

Liara mentions this. It makes sense in a matriarchal society. Plus it only makes sense otherwise we would see Krogan, Batarian, Salarian, Turian, Volus, Hanar, Drell, Quarian, and possibly Elcor surnames. We don't. 

 

If they were passed from the father, Aethyta would carry a Krogan surname, and thus Liara should have carried a Krogan surname. You follow me?

[aoibhealfae]

I think the correct term was that they're a matrilineal society. It does make sense why the Asari would view mating between their races is a somewhat taboo. If the partner is of a different species, they wouldn't compete with the other Asari in their hierarchy.  And it seems that the 'mother' have more societal advantage than the 'father', hence it was their way for their people to maintain power especially with their long lifespan and that was quite a traditionalist mindset. 

 

Ardat-Yakshi seems like a myth to scare these type of pairing away. Hmm.... the first person Liara mindmeld with was Shepard and she's a pureblood... doesn't that mean Shepard could have died if she turns out to be an Ardat-Yakshi

[Quarian Master Race]

Now an Asari put up for adoption. I would assume she would take on the name of the Asari who adopted her. But I really don't think we have to worry about this because children don't exist in the Mass Effect Universe. There was only one child in the entire MEU and it was a figment of Shepard's mind - ventboy who later became Starbrat. The only children came after The Shepard gave his/her life for the sins of the galaxy and if those exist at all they were Krogan. We know this to be true.

You forgot about little Jona'Hazt, both parents killed by evil toasters ;___;.

 

Gillian Grayson/nar Idenna counts too.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I think the correct term was that they're a matrilineal society. It does make sense why the Asari would view mating between their races is a somewhat taboo. If the partner is of a different species, they wouldn't compete with the other Asari in their hierarchy.  And it seems that the 'mother' have more societal advantage than the 'father', hence it was their way for their people to maintain power especially with their long lifespan and that was quite a traditionalist mindset. 

 

Ardat-Yakshi seems like a myth to scare these type of pairing away. Hmm.... the first person Liara mindmeld with was Shepard and she's a pureblood... doesn't that mean Shepard could have died if she turns out to be an Ardat-Yakshi

 

The lore originally was "there are only three Ardat-Yakshi" per Samara. It was later decided that they needed a mook generator for the reapers, so 1% of the Asari population became affected. This amounts to about 60 million on Thessia. However, supposedly there were Ardat-Yakshi serving in the Asari military but were being treated with medication. This seemed to indicate that there was more to the syndrome than was in the codex and was more to it than the writers decided to spend time writing about since the focus of the story was "take back Earth" not "troubles with Asari."

 

So I head canon by extrapolation from information given in game that there were different levels of Ardat-Yakshi syndrome: 1) the first leaves their partner exhausted after melding; 2) the second leaves their partner with amnesia but still alive; 3) the third kills their partner during the meld. The first two are treatable by medication. The last on is like Morinth, Rila, and Falare. 

 

One would also think that since pre-interstellar space flight days 2500 years ago, the Asari would have been doing some kind of genetic research on this condition since they were still mating with their own species at the time and for another 500 years after discovery of the Prothean Archive and Citadel. Such an advanced species with an e-democracy, low crime, virtually no poverty, and high level of education and culture would certainly have done so. They say it doesn't manifest until one reaches the matron stage. This is a genetic condition. It means it could be detected in utero, and cured there like they were eliminating the gene that caused heart disease in humans in ME1 (remember that couple arguing - Shepard knew best!).

 

Asari don't strike me as a particularly religious society, so you can't say religious taboo prevented research. The only logical reason is that BioWare needed a mook generator for the reapers.

[aoibhealfae]

I thought Samara was referring to her three Ardat-Yakshi daughters rather than actual numbers. And I doubt the Banshees were all Ardat-Yakshi, since normal Asari are naturally biotic they could be augmented via reaper tech as well.

 

Taboo isn't confined to religion and it exist in every society and culture and Asari aren't immune to this especially in their governance. 

[BloodyMares]

My question is to original poster. Imagine a couple of transgendered both male and female (with intact genitals). Who is what in this case? Is transgendered female considered a father because her biological sex is male? Is transgendered male considered a mother for the same reason? It doesn't work like that in the society. If you meant gender and not sex then my answer is that it's our -human- society.
You are forgetting that Asari are not female. They are not amazons living without men. They are mono-gendered species. They may look and sound like human females and they give birth like human females but still they are not female. And in Asari society the one who is a donor of genetic material is a father. And the one who selects that genetic material and becomes pregnant is a mother.

TL;DR: Fathers aren't male, they are donors. Mothers aren't female, they are receivers.

[Treacherous J Slither]

My question is to original poster. Imagine a couple of transgendered both male and female (with intact genitals). Who is what in this case? Is transgendered female considered a father because her biological sex is male? Is transgendered male considered a mother for the same reason? It doesn't work like that in the society. If you meant gender and not sex then my answer is that it's our -human- society.
You are forgetting that Asari are not female. They are not amazons living without men. They are mono-gendered species. They may look and sound like human females and they give birth like human females but still they are not female. And in Asari society the one who is a donor of genetic material is a father. And the one who selects that genetic material and becomes pregnant is a mother.

TL;DR: Fathers aren't male, they are donors. Mothers aren't female, they are receivers.

Father is male parent. Mother is female parent. For us humans and other two sex organisms.

For the asari using our terms sounds ridiculous. They should both be the mother. Except one is the birth mother and the other isn't. But they are both the biological parents and are both "female". There is no "male" with the asari.

Asari are always referred to by female terms and all of a sudden there's a male one? And for no good reason? I'm not with that.

Since they call their mind meld sex "embracing eternity" the birth mother could be called the "embracer" and the helper mother could be called the "embraced".

Sounds way better than "father" for a race of "females". No males needed and no males wanted. Not even in terminology.

#AsariMasterRace

[BloodyMares]

^Again, asari are not females. As Liara said "I'm not exactly a woman. My species only has one gender." If you wish, "the embracer" is a mother and "the embraced" is a father. Aethyta knows better.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Again "father" is a male term. Asari are monogendered and female terms are used for them because they resemble human females.

They have a matriarchal all female society. No male terms are used for anything involving them. Using "father" for the embraced female sounds ridiculous and out of place.

They are both mothers because they are both female parents.

Only female terms are applied to the asari.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Again "father" is a male term. Asari are monogendered and female terms are used for them because they resemble human females.

They have a matriarchal all female society. No male terms are used for anything involving them. Using "father" for the embraced female sounds ridiculous and out of place.

They are both mothers because they are both female parents.

Only female terms are applied to the asari.

 

It's one of those things that doesn't make any sense. The only way it can is if our "universal translator" the one who is embraced by the asari into the word "father" in which case it needs some reprogramming. And if we say a word other than "father" it translates it in Asari into the wrong word. Bioware messed up here. 

[dgcatanisiri]

Honestly, the problem is that they didn't create actual terms for this from the beginning - Liara uses the term 'father species' as if it was a placeholder, and no one bothered to say 'so what IS the asari word/term for the non-birthing parent, anyway?' and just proceeded to use 'father' in its place.

 

All this would have taken would have been the creation of one, maybe two words in reference to asari parents, and it'd all be done and dealt with.

 

And Aethyta is bitching at Shepard for no good reason, since the asari themselves perpetuate the use of 'father' in place of non-birthing parent. Liara even later calls her 'Dad.'

[BloodyMares]

Again "father" is a male term. Asari are monogendered and female terms are used for them because they resemble human females.

They have a matriarchal all female society. No male terms are used for anything involving them. Using "father" for the embraced female sounds ridiculous and out of place.

They are both mothers because they are both female parents.

Only female terms are applied to the asari.

So "Male or female has no meaning to us" is not canon then? About female terms you are right. I just remembered how Aria told that there was no meaning for a word 'Patriarch' in Asari language. To me it's the evidence of inconsistent writing. One writer intended them just to be blue exotic stripper chicks and applied female terms to them and another wanted to distinguish them from women by placing all the info into Liara's dialogues and therefore the contradiction. They needed to proofread that before placing it into canon.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

So "Male or female has no meaning to us" is not canon then? About female terms you are right. I just remembered how Aria told that there was no meaning for a word 'Patriarch' in Asari language. To me it's the evidence of inconsistent writing. One writer intended them just to be blue exotic stripper chicks and applied female terms to them and another wanted to distinguish them from women by placing all the info into Liara's dialogues and therefore the contradiction. They needed to proofread that before placing it into canon.

 

In Drew's novels the "male or female has no real meaning to them" is canon. There is no meaning for the word "Patriarch" in the Asari language, but I would imagine that Aria, having learned other languages used it as a mockery for her pet Krogan. 

 

It's kind of like there is no such word as scheisskopf in German, although I made it up and drove my German friend up the wall with it... at first, then she agreed there should be such a word and now it seems to be catching on among her circle of friends over there. 

 

See in ME1 the Asari were portrayed as diplomats, commandos, scientists, technicians, industrial spies, a few dancers, and pirates.... and a villain. Then in ME2 one of the writers wanted to portray them as blue exotic stripper chicks through Matriarch Aethyta. Still in ME2 we dealt with Asari cops, scientists (mad ones if you didn't kill Rana in ME1), normal Asari citizens, business Asari, a crazy CEO (Nassana Dantius), and Liara. But Aethyta due to Claudia Black's VA stole the day. Aethyta was meant to be more for comic relief than anything. 

 

However the fact that in ME3 you needed to recover some book so that the Asari would remember how to fight kind of sealed the deal. 

 

Lore in the MEU is a zany free-for-all.

[StarcloudSWG]

The asari very likely do have a word for "parent who is not the child bearer" as well as one for "parent who is the child bearer."

 

There are two translation programs working here. One on Shepard's part, and one on Athetya's part. Shepard's, which only Shepard can hear, translates asari into english, and Athetya's, which only Athetya can hear, translates english into asari. So when Shepard says 'mother,' Athetya hears "parent who is the child bearer."

 

And she gets annoyed because this is something she's run into consistently dealing with other races and asari, and in her reply, she says "I'm the parent who is not the child bearer." which Shepard hears as "father."

[Iralux]

So to summarize, it's the writers fault for not thinking things through all the way and (ironically) being anthropocentric and/or having writing conflicts regarding the Asari.

 

In canon, the rational explanation is a language barrier due to poor translations. A language based on differentiating between the sexes is going to run into conflicts with a language that doesn't.

 

That all makes sense, even though I really wish I could get a more knowledgeable Shepard. Hopefully Mass Effect Andromeda will have something like Dragon Age Inquisition's 'History Knowledge' perk that adds extra dialogue options. Or if reading codex entries changed your dialogue.

 

Thanks for the input!

[BloodyMares]

IIRC, you can simply not pick "Her father?" line if you don't want to look like an "anthropocentric bag of Ds". Throughout all ME games there are stupid Investigate options that were either included for fun or made for children.

[StarcloudSWG]

The lore originally was "there are only three Ardat-Yakshi" per Samara. It was later decided that they needed a mook generator for the reapers, so 1% of the Asari population became affected. This amounts to about 60 million on Thessia. However, supposedly there were Ardat-Yakshi serving in the Asari military but were being treated with medication. This seemed to indicate that there was more to the syndrome than was in the codex and was more to it than the writers decided to spend time writing about since the focus of the story was "take back Earth" not "troubles with Asari."

 

In both ME 2 and ME 3, if you actually read the codex entry on Ardat-Yakshi, you learn that it's a spectrum disorder; a full percentage of all 'pure blooded' asari have some degree of expression of the A-Y disorder.

 

Note that this was decided in ME 2, NOT 3. There was no 'later decision'.

 

As a spectrum disorder, there are degrees of expression. Most are mild, leading to discomfort during mating melds. Much rarer is the full blown A-Y expression, which results in asari like Morinth.

 

Samara does not say that there are *only* three A-Y. She says that she has three daughters, and therefore there are three ardat-yakshi in existence today.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I thought asari needed other species to reproduce.

[dgcatanisiri]

I thought asari needed other species to reproduce.

 

They'd never have survived to gain spacefaring capabilities if that were the case (Liara even says so if Shepard asks in ME1). Ardat-Yakshi are only produced from asari-asari pairings, and Liara is explicitly referred to repeatedly as having both parents being asari. Asari have come to prefer that they have offspring with aliens in order to increase genetic diversity, given how they 'randomize their DNA' in the process of conception, presumably meaning that their DNA is given greater 'mixing' in mating with a non-asari, (asari biology really doesn't hold up under scrutiny...), to the point that it's seen as taboo to have offspring with another asari. It happens, Liara, Morinth, Rila, and Falare are proof of that, but it's got serious stigma associated - Liara brings up that 'no polite asari would call her 'pureblood' to her face' in ME1, and in ME2 we hear a couple of asari remarking on the asari responsible for the tests on the Feros colonists using the term, not to mention Tela Vasir calling Liara a 'pureblood ******' during LotSB.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Note when someone with 16,640 posts in a Bioware forum is trolling. That line though is a riot to pick in ME1. I always choose it for Shepard the Not So Bright. 

 

"Think Shepard. Our species would have died out long ago if we couldn't reproduce with our own kind." - Liara

 

Then there's all the talk about purebloods with the Baria Frontiers merchant. It's not really taboo but it's frowned upon. Although I'd imagine that on Thessia, pureblood couples are all over the place simply because there are 6 billion asari and not all of them travel off world to meet aliens.

 

This alone to me makes no sense why there would not have been any research into an in utero genetic cure for the condition in over two and a half millenia since they discovered the Prothean Archive. Heart disease doesn't manifest until later in life, but apparently humans can test for, do gene therapy and cure it in utero. So something that affects about 60 million Asari on Thessia alone should have something done about it by such a technologically advanced society, don't you think?

[dgcatanisiri]

I've been having a bit of a week (more like a bit of a month, but...), Cut me some slack, I'm not looking at everything on the page.

 

I mentioned asari biology makes no damn sense when you think about it, right? Cuz yeah, you'd think that they'd have some method of detection of how the Ardat-Yakshi gene or gene sequence kicks in and makes then become an addictive killers. And apparently they can test it at some point after the asari in question is born, if Rila and Falare were able to be identified before they had the opportunity to get hooked on killing others, or how Nearia was apparently identified as having a 'condition' that prevented her from being more than friends with the PTSD asari in Huerta...

 

I mean, I can come up with a few ideas as to why, but these are pure justifications, rather than anything supported in canon (like my current favorite is that messing with that gene sequence somehow severs their biotic abilities, and as all asari have biotics, that's woven into their culture, no one will take that chance of outcasting their daughters).