45 réponses à ce sujet

[Deadly dwarf]

I don't know if Justice did something to him or if he was like this from the start (or if both are just crazy ? never played the DAO dlc) but I was against Anders during all act 3 ... He did the worse thing he could have done. I won't miss him.

T

You should get Dragon Age Origins Ultimate Edition so you can play the original game and the DLC Dragon Age:  Awakening after it.  This will help you better appreciate the Justice-Anders story arc.  Awakening is where the characters of Anders and Justice were introduced.  You will still come away greatly frustrated that there is no way to stop Anders from playing the part of the terrorist, but at least you will see all the nuances of the storyline.

[vertigomez]

Tbh I think that should be the reaction of all the companions for nearly every quest Hawke drags them on.

[nightscrawl]

Tbh I think that should be the reaction of all the companions for nearly every quest Hawke drags them on.

 

I think DAI shard hunting wins out over everything. Mosaic pieces come close, but so many of them can be found during normal exploration, so I don't think those are as bad, and certainly not as numerous.

[Biotic Apostate]

He does have better stuff to do, like running the clinic and the mage underground, instead of running around shops in Hightown. (also, I think you need low approval for that comment?)

[vertigomez]

I think DAI shard hunting wins out over everything. Mosaic pieces come close, but so many of them can be found during normal exploration, so I don't think those are as bad, and certainly not as numerous.

Oh, so much! Though I don't think Sten was thrilled when I forced him to go nug-wrangling in Orzammar, either...

He does have better stuff to do, like running the clinic and the mage underground, instead of running around shops in Hightown. (also, I think you need low approval for that comment?)

Yeah, I think every companion (except maybe Isabela, depending on the Act) has something better to do with their time than follow Hawke around. They're just too polite or indebted to say as much.

[nightscrawl]

Realistically, Hawke wouldn't be wandering around the whole city with three disparate people anyway, and would likely pick up their crew when venturing out elsewhere. Unfortunately, the mean streets of Kirkwall, particularly Darktown, make you kinda want to bring some friends.

 

The annoying thing is that Kirkwall is the best place to hear all the party banter. I have a set path I run through when I'm trying to spam it. In DAO my favorite banter trigger was in Orzammar on the walkway to the Proving Grounds. I would run into the area, run out, get banter, and repeat.

[Biotic Apostate]

Yeah, I think every companion (except maybe Isabela, depending on the Act) has something better to do with their time than follow Hawke around. They're just too polite or indebted to say as much.

And except for Varric, who actually makes a living on retelling Hawke's exploits. Running around and coming up with ways on how to make Hawke picking up torn trousers form the garbage seem exciting consumes most of his time anyway

[teh DRUMPf!!]

He does have better stuff to do, like running the clinic and the mage underground, instead of running around shops in Hightown. (also, I think you need low approval for that comment?)

 

Meredith destroyed the Mage Underground by Act 3, which is when the OP claims Anders says this.

 

The only better thing he has to do is kill himself. His spirit is a serious threat to all around him, almost getting some mage girl of all people killed.

[Biotic Apostate]

Meredith destroyed the Mage Underground by Act 3, which is when the OP claims Anders says this.

 

The only better thing he has to do is kill himself. His spirit is a serious threat to all around him, almost getting some mage girl of all people killed.

You're a real ray of sunshine, aren't you.

[vertigomez]

The only better thing he has to do is kill himself.

Not true! There are cats in Darktown that absolutely need their ears scratched.

Realistically, Hawke wouldn't be wandering around the whole city with three disparate people anyway, and would likely pick up their crew when venturing out elsewhere. Unfortunately, the mean streets of Kirkwall, particularly Darktown, make you kinda want to bring some friends.

Hawke knows what happens when they go out adventuring on their own.

Spoiler

[Biotic Apostate]

Not true! There are cats in Darktown that absolutely need their ears scratched.


Hawke knows what happens when they go out adventuring on their own.

Spoiler

Honestly, both the writing for Hawke, and Nick Boulton's performance made sarcastic Hawke and dialogues like this one of the best parts of DA games.

[vertigomez]

Honestly, both the writing for Hawke, and Nick Boulton's performance made sarcastic Hawke and dialogues like this one of the best parts of DA games.

I concur. Nick Boulton is a gift.

Spoiler

[huyre]

I believe Anders is his own worst enemy. Reading the wiki (I haven’t read the actual sources cited), Anders seems to have been stubborn and unwilling to compromise and adapt since he was taken to the Circle. It is so extreme, that he refused to give his real name and apparently never used it for the rest of his life.

 

So I think Anders’ problem has always been that it is his way or the highway. No middle way or taking a moment to calm down and think things through and look at situations from different perspectives. He never seems to have truly grown out of his rebellious teenager phase. It was always him against the world. With his interests coming first, of course

 

He never stops to look how his actions affect others. Especially not in the long run. Like his liberation of mages.

 

He wanted to force the issue, while often social reforms take years, decades or even centuries to change. He did not consider that some didn’t feel oppressed in the Circle at all. And that the Circle at least served a function of teaching mages to use and control their powers and the dangers of the Fade. What would happen to the freed mages? Who would educate young mages with no capable mage teachers around? Should the mages live their lifes on the run, in fear, being outcasts?

In DA II there was a surprising amount turning to blood magic and making deals with demons. There was no security or safety net in place. Anders’ plan was the same as dropping a domesticated animal in the wild and expecting them to be capable of taking care of themselves and be happy.

Combing him with Justice was likely to end up in disaster; Justice would only ever be exposed to Anders’ worldview and feelings to make sense of the human world. Justice was already a more or less a single-minded spirit, seeing things pretty black and white. Anders had those tendencies as well. And that just does not work in reality. There are always grey areas. 

 

Perhaps if he had not been a mage and above all not merged with Justice, Anders might have developed somewhat differently and might have had a more healthy attitude towards life.

[Biotic Apostate]

Perhaps if he had not been a mage and above all not merged with Justice, Anders might have developed somewhat differently and might have had a more healthy attitude towards life.

If he was not a mage, he would be a farmer living with his loving family somewhere in Ferelden. He would be a completely different person. All of the rejection and suffering he had to go through was because he was a mage.

 

The mages can educate each other (as evidenced by other, non-Andrastian cultures). And saying change takes time means little, if we're talking about a process of systematic slaughter (one annulment per 45 years) that lasted close to a thousand years. Maybe not all the mages had it bad (Vivienne is a prime example), but most wanted change. Wynne had her son taken away, Cole was starved to death, the Ferelden circle had high suicide rates, and rapes and abuse of the rite of tranquility were rampant. That's why blood magic use was so big in Kirkwall. Those people had absolutely nothing to lose, and being faced with getting turned into vegetables (who keep some awareness - those who were temporarily brought back begged to be killed), it's no wonder they would try absolutely everything to get away.

[Contraire]

He never stops to look how his actions affect others. Especially not in the long run. Like his liberation of mages.

 

He wanted to force the issue, while often social reforms take years, decades or even centuries to change. He did not consider that some didn’t feel oppressed in the Circle at all. And that the Circle at least served a function of teaching mages to use and control their powers and the dangers of the Fade. What would happen to the freed mages? Who would educate young mages with no capable mage teachers around? Should the mages live their lifes on the run, in fear, being outcasts?

Social reform isn't something that just happens on its own, you know. It needs people to push it. 

 

I'm not seeing much of Anders trying to force the issue pre-Chantry explosion, either. He's writing manifestos and helping mages who escaped the Circle stay escaped, not kidnapping happy Circle mages and cacklingly forcing them to stay away. His manifesto at least proves he wants to convince people, same as most of his arguing; he's rather bad at it, but you can't deny that time and time again he attempts to talk people around to his way of thinking. That's the sort of basic activism that precisely allows social reforms to be conceived.

 

Anders would say that if the system changed and mages weren't forced into the Circle, there would be no reasons for mages to live as outcasts on the run.

 

Changing the system is exactly what Anders wants to do.

[huyre]

The mages can educate each other (as evidenced by other, non-Andrastian cultures). And saying change takes time means little, if we're talking about a process of systematic slaughter (one annulment per 45 years) that lasted close to a thousand years. Maybe not all the mages had it bad (Vivienne is a prime example), but most wanted change. Wynne had her son taken away, Cole was starved to death, the Ferelden circle had high suicide rates, and rapes and abuse of the rite of tranquility were rampant. That's why blood magic use was so big in Kirkwall. Those people had absolutely nothing to lose, and being faced with getting turned into vegetables (who keep some awareness - those who were temporarily brought back begged to be killed), it's no wonder they would try absolutely everything to get away.

I did not mean to imply that Circles are good. For various reasons I take issue with it. And that mages in Circles rose up and rebelled at the end of DA II emphasizes your point that mages in general were fed up with the whole system around and forced onto them (I have not played DA:I yet).

 

I was more aiming towards pointing out that Anders uses one perspective (that of his own) and applies it to everything (like in the OP).

 

That does not mean he is completely wrong; mages are quickly spirited away when they are found and secluded. They can’t be heard or seen by most of the population. So Anders was right that something had to be done and stirring trouble would inevitably be part of it.

 

Social reform isn't something that just happens on its own, you know. It needs people to push it. 

I agree with that; creating or changing something can only happen if you do something, take action. I believe that Anders was too much focused on only one angle, setting mages physically free. He did not seem to have thought of what comes next once there was a mage revolution. Like how he would built forth on  the momentum he thought he would create and continue to try change attitudes. 

 

But I still think changes take time, though Biotic Apostate makes a good point that in this case it was loooong overdue. When something that has been accepted/ignored and perhaps is part of a long history/culture, ingrained in hearts and minds, a society will resist. Just think of racism, segregation, slavery, child labor, women rights, etc. Even now some places and cultures holds on to (or attempts to change it have failed) questionable customs which has lasted for who knows how long (it does not excuse what happens until reforms start to take place though).

 

Putting that aside, I wonder how much being merged with Justice changed Anders throughout the years. I read the manifesto and it seems pretty reasonable and to the point. Aimed at anyone, mage or not. I find it hard to think of any other reason than uneven writing why Anders would feel justified to blow up the whole chantry (I suppose it also depends on the kind of playthrough/relationship with Anders you have..?).

[Sah291]

I agree with that; creating or changing something can only happen if you do something, take action. I believe that Anders was too much focused on only one angle, setting mages physically free. He did not seem to have thought of what comes next once there was a mage revolution. Like how he would built forth on  the momentum he thought he would create and continue to try change attitudes. 

I don't think he thought that through because he didn't expect to live through it or be a part of it at all. He just expected to be a scapegoat to stir other mages into action, and then other mages would lead the actual rebellion. Which they did eventually. But it was always up to the other circles.

As for how things would work out after the war, even if they won, he knew that would take many years and there wouldn't be peace overnight. He says as much if you let him live.
 

Putting that aside, I wonder how much being merged with Justice changed Anders throughout the years. I read the manifesto and it seems pretty reasonable and to the point. Aimed at anyone, mage or not. I find it hard to think of any other reason than uneven writing why Anders would feel justified to blow up the whole chantry (I suppose it also depends on the kind of playthrough/relationship with Anders you have..?).

Well obviously Justice was a huge part of it. I think people underestimate Hawke's influence though, for obvious reasons. Anders is very focused on the Templars at first. But it strikes me how he gets progressively more and more anti Chantry as time goes on, the more Hawke gets tangled up with Petrice, etc. Not that he doesn't have his own reasons. But Hawke goes so far as to accuse the Grand Cleric, and I could totally see how friended Anders might come to believe he has a pro Mage Hawke's implicit consent in that case. And then rival Hawke could have possibly helped push him further to the edge by antagonizing him, and challenging him.

[Contraire]

I think Anders focuses on physical freedom because it's so necessary to every other freedom. Without it, mages are prisoners, whether they're forced to live in jail like in Kirkwall or merely assigned residency like in Ferelden. They can't organize freely, they can't communicate or associate freely because they don't know if they're being watched, they can't move easily, their job opportunities are restricted at best...

And there's the threat of Tranquility, which is actually the other thing Andes fights against. It's impossible for mages in the Circle to debate or argue their case on equal footing with the Templars simply because the Templars hold the threat of Tranquility if a mage argues too much.

If mages want to be actors in the fight for their own rights, they need to be able to. Physical freedom is the most basic and obvious tenet if that.

[Obadiah]

Thus far, the Dragon Age games are really missing a proper depiction of a functioning, stable Circle. The only one I remember is the Ferelden Circle from DAO mage origin, and then in Witch Hunt. Of course, we saw what Uldred did to that one. Maybe there never was one, and they're all corrupt and oppressive.

[Inkvisiittori]

Hahhah I remember when Anders first said this to my blood mage Hawke. We were shopping in the Hightown and it was lovely and suddenly he just says something like that. Totally ruined the day. Hawke didn't take him anywhere for a while after that. 

[ModernAcademic]

Oh God I looooove Wynne,so sad she's been swept under the rug... Justice has always been hotheaded,in DAA if you take him to the final mission,he asked you to kill the Architect like "No question,no other way,just kill him,KILL HIM!". And Anders always hated the circle,so when these two mixed the f* up,a disaster was made. And Kirkwall was the lit fuse to this bomb called Anders/Justice....everybody makes mistakes,Anders' biggest mistake was to let Justice took over his body.

What's worse is that it wasn't the Architect who killed the Wardens, nor did he order it, much less wish it.

The perpretator of all those deaths was the darkspawn who invaded our fort. Forgot his name, now. I think it's the Withered. He misinterpreted the Architect's orders, which were to seek help from the Wardens. It was supposed to be a peace offering. Later on, the Architect tells the Warden-Commander how much he regrets how the situation developed in the end.

So the true culprit was the Withered. And we killed him early on in the game. Therefore, Justice's judgement on condemning the Architect constitutes an injustice.