147 réponses à ce sujet

[Dabrikishaw]

I don't think Solas intended for his plan to end in what is basically the end of the world, but he still plans to do it knowing (or at least believing) that it's what will happen and found it an acceptable cost.

[In Exile]

I don't think Solas intended for his plan to end in what is basically the end of the world, but he still plans to do it knowing (or at least believing) that it's what will happen and found it an acceptable cost.

His plan is clearly a case of gone horribly right. He had some plot to separate out the Evanuris from what made then powerful and immortal and trap them away. Except he flubbed it and he did the same to all of reality. That's the best explanation for how we get the Veil out of his plot to stop the Evanuris.

Solas just can't live with the guilt of what he did. It's why his experience with the Dalish are so ironic. He's here to tell them a moral story about their past but gets ignored in favour of a moral story about their past.

[Sarielle]

I would love to know why the majority of video gamers-- especially here!-- are so radically anti-mage, anti-elf. Save the BS story excuses. I see this sentiment literally everywhere. Video game designers hate mages and make magic deliberately crappy. Players everywhere are deathly offended that anyone else but a human warrior should be in a game, much less exist as a playable character.

 

... I assume this is satire?

 

Anyway, I would say the most satisfying playthrough I've had has indeed been female elf for DAI.

 

Solasmanced him on a reaver, but she did drink from the well so I felt the story played out beautifully. She thought this whole "destroy the world to remake it stuff" was kinda bullshit. Not sure what I missed by not being a mage, but I'm a sucker for giving my protagonists wangsty/unhappy endings.

 

I'm doing a devout Andrastian Circle mage at the moment, and a Tal Vashoth mage. Imo both of those have shown a lot of potential to feel very invested in the plot, Tal Vashoth in particular (she's a raging anti-Templar, anti-mage control at all type).

 

... And finally I thought my human rogue, who wasn't particularly devout and just wanted the world to return to some kind of normal, was a nice perspective too -- just being trapped in the middle of all this nonsense.

 

I guess I'm saying I think every combo offers a lot of fun/interest in DAI.

[tesla21]

Given the voice acting I find it impossible to play an elf! As much as I head canon that the Lavellan's contact with humans marked my speech it just doesn't feel like right, always feels like it's just my own poor excuse rather than a satisfying head canon explanation >,<, you sound so very different to any dalish you ever met through the series.

 

That is however a personal gripe of course.

[Gervaise]

Actually you only sound different from the Dalish in DA2 and DAI, who for some reason ended up with Irish accents, or Merrill and the followers of Solas, who ended up Welsh.     In DAO the Dalish were no different to anyone else, which was fine because why would they be?    Why would slaves from all parts of the world ending up in the Dales have them suddenly develop a common strong Irish accent?

 

I found the British male VA just right for my Lavellan and just loved his voice acting.  Not so keen on the others but that is not because of the lack of a strong accent.   Since we never meet anyone from our clan, I can just assume that hanging around in the Freemarches, without much contact with the other clans between Arlathavens, allowed them to develop their own way of speaking which is why they sound different.

[Chaelura]

I'd just like to say right now that I had absolutely *no* idea that this topic was so... hairy.  Heh.  I figured we'd just talk about them and their situation as a narrative device, but holy moly.  Thanks for the discussion everyone!

[Toasted Llama]

I'd just like to say right now that I had absolutely *no* idea that this topic was so... hairy.  Heh.  I figured we'd just talk about them and their situation as a narrative device, but holy moly.  Thanks for the discussion everyone!

 

Mages and elves are a very controversial topic, due to both sides (pro and anti) having strong arguments. It may seem obvious at first (discrimination = bad! freedom = good!), but many people have found grey areas in the topic.

 

You should read about the discussion surrounding Anders' actions in DA2; some people consider it going too far while others consider it a necessary sacrifice for mage freedom. Very interesting how different people see the same event with a different light.

[Heimdall]

I'd just like to say right now that I had absolutely *no* idea that this topic was so... hairy. Heh. I figured we'd just talk about them and their situation as a narrative device, but holy moly. Thanks for the discussion everyone!

Its partly because the discussion touches on some very relevant issues: freedom-vs-security, discrimination, etc.

On one hand, mages being prisoners because of something they were born with seems bad, on the other hand they represent a level of danger mundanes simply aren't capable of (Usually), and magic is capable of horrifying things when abused. Then there's the discrimination against elves, which most everyone can agree is bad, but some elves (Mostly the Dalish), completely rub people the wrong way with their constant cultural reinforcing of their own victim complex and sometimes hateful attitude toward humans.

EDIT: And then there's the whole issue of newly revealed truths about the ancient elves and their gods...

[Deebo305]

Its partly because the discussion touches on some very relevant issues: freedom-vs-security, discrimination, etc.

On one hand, mages being prisoners because of something they were born with seems bad, on the other hand they represent a level of danger mundanes simply aren't capable of (Usually), and magic is capable of horrifying things when abused. Then there's the discrimination against elves, which most everyone can agree is bad, but some elves (Mostly the Dalish), completely rub people the wrong way with their constant cultural reinforcing of their own victim complex and sometimes hateful attitude toward humans.

Pro Circle vs Mage Freedom discussions definitely get heated quickly on these boards, I'm preferably in the Pro Circle camp since I believe Vivienne said it best "Every circle is different". They weren't 5 star hotels but they did provide mages with something most peasants would never get such as a bed, food and proper education.

Even in Inquisition all 3 Divine candidates agree that the Circles need to change and all 3 do to varying degrees of success or as some Leiliana fans would like you to believe a "complete success" . Point is mages will al always need some form of oversight simply because the risk of possession or their abilities going out of control is always there, the College of Enchanters is a nice idea but until I see its so called "progress" I'll remain unconvinced

Now as for elves....yep they definitely get the short end of the stick and Solas' nuke of the world plan isn't helping the situation

[Medhia_Nox]

This is actually the only valid counterargument IMO. it doesn't nullify the moral obligation to correct things, but it's a clear case against the "genocide option". Things are somewhat unclear about who would benefit, though. If everyone in the present dies - including the elves, as Solas says to the Inquisitor - who will inherit the world?

 

The denizens of the Fade... just like the psycho intends.

 

If he's a spirit... his apathy toward all mortals is understandable.  I'd actually find his character morally complex then.  He still has to be defeated because I will presumably not be a spirit in DA4 and an extra-dimensional invasion is anathema to life on Thedas.  But then I would understand that he simply is incapable of empathy toward mortals OR being anything other than he is... which is a Pride Demon.

 

But... he's an elf.  A boring trope of a villain (to me) who's just going to get crushed by my next (or future) main character. 

[Sarielle]

But then I would understand that he simply is incapable of empathy toward mortals OR being anything other than he is... which is a Pride Demon.

 

But... he's an elf.  A boring trope of a villain (to me) who's just going to get crushed by my next (or future) main character. 

 

Hmm. Or abomination? He did say "Solas came first." So there was an elf named Solas, but now he's something else.

[uncleanspirit]

Spoiler

I feel like with the mage rebellion, and the general fact that more Chantry followers fear Mages, it just creates a wonderful dichotomy when mages are the leaders of all these uprisings, and indeed the *heroes* frequenty when the **** hits the fan - the darkspawn, the mage uprigins at Kirkwall, and the Breach.  To me it is one of the best ways to create wonderful tension in the story - all good stories have that tension and urgency.

 

As such, I can't resist playing the underdog - mage elf.  If that person can get **** done, one must imagine that they may be more valuable and the Chantry might stop treating them like dangerous pariahs simply because they don't understand their abilites; templars basically have the right to lobotomize mages on the suspicion that they will inevitably be possessed by a demon.  If that were even true, given that mages have their phylacteries stored away, it eases the hunt for the demons they *may* become.

 

Not to mention the fact that were they raised as *human beings* instead of locked up threats to humanity, they may learn and grow in the same way anyone else does; read Pavlov to see what I mean.

 

</rant>  It's absurd.  How many soldiers have cut down armies without having any idea what they were really fighting for?

 

EDIT:  I also love how the took the archetype of mages and elves being wonderful amazing beings and basically turned them into pariahs/slaves, although this could have been a consquence of the elves screwing themselves hardcore

Spoiler

.  I have a soft spot for the underdog

 

I am usually able to find a unique spin or angle that makes most classes and races interesting.  I try not to limit myself to one angle and try to find different perspectives to keep the game as fresh as i can.  My suggestion would be for you to attempt develop a personality archetype for your character at the start and try to make decisions based upon that and see how it turns out.  So far I have completed the game as the following:

• a human circle rift mage, who was Andrastian but not devout and allied with the mages,
• a secular tal-vashoth mercenary champion who conscripted the mages,
• a fairly secular dalish artificer who was pro elf and conscripted the templars,
• a dalish necromancer who was devout to the elven pantheon and very pro elf freedom, conscripted the templars and wasn't very open to Solas' views on the past, 
• a devout Andrastian human templar that allied with the templars and,  
• a secular carta tempest who allied with the templars.

 

I am currently playing a dalish knight enchanter who believes in the elven pantheon and is very pro elf and mage.  She is also open to Solas' explanation of the past and has allied with the mages. I am about halfway through the game at the moment with this character.

 

Of all the games I have completed, I think I have had the most fun on the dwarf tempest.  I just went through the game playing like she was thinking: to hell with this prophet stuff I just want to get things back to the way things were so me and my clan can get back to making some money again.

 

In my opinion, the devout human templar fit into the narrative theme of the game best while the Qunari made the least amount sense from a game narrative standpoint. The knight enchanter I am currently playing has been interesting from a lore perspective.  Right now I would probably put it third in on level of enjoyment behind the dwarf and the templar on the "fun" scale.

[Chaelura]

In my opinion, the devout human templar fit into the narrative theme of the game best while the Qunari made the least amount sense from a game narrative standpoint. The knight enchanter I am currently playing has been interesting from a lore perspective.  Right now I would probably put it third in on level of enjoyment behind the dwarf and the templar on the "fun" scale.

Very cool!  Yah I am doing that too.  I just tend to *default* to the character that seems to be most opposed to the prevailing "powers that be", simply because I want to feel that spark, that drive to "save the world", not just from the big bad but also from ourselves.

 

They actually did do more to take the Templars down a notch in DA:I than I originally expected; as such it's hard to say that they are really one of those true powers in this timeframe.  Not so the Chantry, since the people don't really seem to separate the religion/texts from the institution.  It's still a big hairy deal.

 

I am running a human rogue, devout Andrastian, at the moment.  And I'm not gonna lie, it's reeeeeally hard to see the redeeming points there.  When choices come up where I am asked (and this happens a lot) whether I believe I'm the Herald of Andraste, usually given the options (since I'm not a mage and don't truly understand the concept of the Fade and spirits and all that jazz) I have to say "maybe" or "yes", since I have no idea what else it *could* be, and I come from noble birth, so I reckon that leans my perspective a bit toward arrogance.  I feel like a fool.  While I suppose from a story perspective that can be cool and give you a growth arc, it's not as viscerally satisfying for me.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Serielle:  Solas means "Pride" - it's actually more likely that the spirit came first, then it took form into an elf. 

 

The account of why the Forbidden Ones are banished states that it's because they refused to keep a single form (and that they refused to help the elves).  The documentation all strongly implies they're equals to the Evanuris and the Forgotten Ones and we know that the Forbidden Ones (Imshael, Gaxxkang, etc.) are spirits.

 

So, while it may not be correct - don't be surprised to find out Solas has always been a spirit.

[Onewomanarmy]

I always play as female elven mage when possible xD

[In Exile]

@Serielle: Solas means "Pride" - it's actually more likely that the spirit came first, then it took form into an elf.

The account of why the Forbidden Ones are banished states that it's because they refused to keep a single form (and that they refused to help the elves). The documentation all strongly implies they're equals to the Evanuris and the Forgotten Ones and we know that the Forbidden Ones (Imshael, Gaxxkang, etc.) are spirits.

So, while it may not be correct - don't be surprised to find out Solas has always been a spirit.

I would be shocked if the Forbidden Ones are equal to the Evanuris. They're basically fodder. We don't see then do much of anything.

It's also not clear from the codex that they were spirits. Everything we see about the elves hints the opposite connection - that they were material being that could become spirits, not the reverse we see with Cole.

I'd wager actually Cole is the model we see for humans - spirits trapped and separated in the real world that became "real" over time.

[uncleanspirit]

 

 

Very cool!  Yah I am doing that too.  I just tend to *default* to the character that seems to be most opposed to the prevailing "powers that be", simply because I want to feel that spark, that drive to "save the world", not just from the big bad but also from ourselves.

 

They actually did do more to take the Templars down a notch in DA:I than I originally expected; as such it's hard to say that they are really one of those true powers in this timeframe.  Not so the Chantry, since the people don't really seem to separate the religion/texts from the institution.  It's still a big hairy deal.

 

I am running a human rogue, devout Andrastian, at the moment.  And I'm not gonna lie, it's reeeeeally hard to see the redeeming points there.  When choices come up where I am asked (and this happens a lot) whether I believe I'm the Herald of Andraste, usually given the options (since I'm not a mage and don't truly understand the concept of the Fade and spirits and all that jazz) I have to say "maybe" or "yes", since I have no idea what else it *could* be, and I come from noble birth, so I reckon that leans my perspective a bit toward arrogance.  I feel like a fool.  While I suppose from a story perspective that can be cool and give you a growth arc, it's not as viscerally satisfying for me.

 

 

A qunari character might be in your wheel house for an outsider type of character.  A qunari mage even moreso.

 

 

@Serielle:  Solas means "Pride" - it's actually more likely that the spirit came first, then it took form into an elf. 

 

The account of why the Forbidden Ones are banished states that it's because they refused to keep a single form (and that they refused to help the elves).  The documentation all strongly implies they're equals to the Evanuris and the Forgotten Ones and we know that the Forbidden Ones (Imshael, Gaxxkang, etc.) are spirits.

 

So, while it may not be correct - don't be surprised to find out Solas has always been a spirit.

 

I don't think think Solas is a spirit.  If you take him into the fade with Cole, the Fear demon instantly recognizes Cole as a spirit and taunts him with it.  Saying that they are not much different from one another.  Without going into the exact meaning, his taunt to Solas is different and more direct.  I figure if Solas was a spirit or demon he would have taunted him much in the same way as he did Cole.

 

EDIT: For typos and clarity.  Tired

[Xerrai]

His plan is clearly a case of gone horribly right. He had some plot to separate out the Evanuris from what made then powerful and immortal and trap them away. Except he flubbed it and he did the same to all of reality. That's the best explanation for how we get the Veil out of his plot to stop the Evanuris.

Solas just can't live with the guilt of what he did. It's why his experience with the Dalish are so ironic. He's here to tell them a moral story about their past but gets ignored in favour of a moral story about their past.

Not responding to this post directly but I want to add to the conversation.

It is important to note that one prime reason Solas has for choosing this path is because he believes there is no other viable solution.

One of the few dialogues an Inquisitor who has negative approval with Solas can obtain is one where the Inquisitor claims "You don't care about the elves!".

 

Solas of course responds in a salty manner. He says "I simply see no way to help the elves, oppressed as they are now." Depending on your choice thereafter, Solas describes a few helpful attempts that he believes will ultimately fail.

To paraphrase:

He believes the Inquisitor, one of the most powerful men/women in current day Thedas, demanding change on the behalf of elves (like returning Halamshiral) will ultimately fail.

He believes fighting in any capacity (gate guard, lord, empress) will only worsen the image of elves in the eyes of humans. More reason to oppress them.

He believes teaching the elves, empowering them with knowledge, will ultimately prove fruitless because exceptionally few modern elves will believe him.

 

Their current day situation combined with the lessons of history (human-washing Ameridian, the Exalted March on the Dales, the censure of Shartan and the subsequent intentional erasure of their culture), Solas seems to genuinely believe that the only legitimate way to help the elves is to tear down the fade so he can "casually reshape reality".

[Reznore57]

Not responding to this post directly but I want to add to the conversation.

It is important to note that one prime reason Solas has for choosing this path is because he believes there is no other viable solution.

One of the few dialogues an Inquisitor who has negative approval with Solas can obtain is one where the Inquisitor claims "You don't care about the elves!".

 

Solas of course responds in a salty manner. He says "I simply see no way to help the elves, oppressed as they are now." Depending on your choice thereafter, Solas describes a few helpful attempts that he believes will ultimately fail.

To paraphrase:

He believes the Inquisitor, one of the most powerful men/women in current day Thedas, demanding change on the behalf of elves (like returning Halamshiral) will ultimately fail.

He believes fighting in any capacity (gate guard, lord, empress) will only worsen the image of elves in the eyes of humans. More reason to oppress them.

He believes teaching the elves, empowering them with knowledge, will ultimately prove fruitless because exceptionally few modern elves will believe him.

 

Their current day situation combined with the lessons of history (human-washing Ameridian, the Exalted March on the Dales, the censure of Shartan and the subsequent intentional erasure of their culture), Solas seems to genuinely believe that the only legitimate way to help the elves is to tear down the fade so he can "casually reshape reality".

 

Thing is Solas doesn't think the current elves are "elves".

It was never about politics or the elves being abused.

Solas thinks the current elves are simply broken , like everyone else.They lost their immortality , their magic , their deep connexion with the fade and that's his problem.

 

If you put Briala in power , and you ask him if he's happy about it he goes "Lol , don't care I'm not an "elf"...".

[Xerrai]

Thing is Solas doesn't think the current elves are "elves".

It was never about politics or the elves being abused.

Solas thinks the current elves are simply broken , like everyone else.They lost their immortality , their magic , their deep connexion with the fade and that's his problem.

 

If you put Briala in power , and you ask him if he's happy about it he goes "Lol , don't care I'm not an "elf"...".

If you befriend/romance Solas, he admits that he was wrong in not seeing the modern elves as people. That they showed him otherwise. But even if the Inquisitor had negative approval with Solas, there are certain points showing that Solas still cares for the elves despite what he may view as "brokenness".

Approval (the closest thing we have to objectiveness in terms of what characters think) is gained from not only showing thoughtfulness by asking questions but from helping marginalized people regardless of race. Elves, soldiers, refugees--while it is only apparent to the player when the Inquisitor takes an action to bring up the approval prompt, the mere fact that he gives approval at all means there is some sort of predisposition of thinking of them as more than non-feeling objects.

 

While the Inquisitor can be a large part in changing Solas's world view, it is important to remember that storywise, characters have a life off screen. Characer development often comes with it.

Through dialogue we see a budding friendship--or at least respect--between him and Cassandra. Plus Blackwall (before Revelations), Iron Bull (depending on how you handle his quest) and several others. Respect (and potential friendship) is not easily given to non-people.

 

While I am willing to agree that Solas saw them as non-people prior to Inquisition (he stated as much), it is dubious as to weather that mindset still holds after or even during Inquisition for even a negative approval Inquisitor.

[Korva]

I don't "hate" elves or mages, it's just that some of the fandom surrounding both can get extremely tiresome. In the light of regularly recurring threads declaring the superiority of elves, mages, and especially elven mages, and speculating how everyone who disagrees is probably some banal, boring, uncreative, oppressive hater of sensitive special snowflakes, it's not hard to see why people might get a mite tired of it all. There's also this desire to reduce complex issues to a shallow and IMO boring black-and-white scenario of innocent victim versus evil aggressor. I have no interest in that sort of thing.

 

 The whole ... the human race winning the world because every other race gave up or pretentiously let themselves die out thing always bugged the crap out of me.

 

Or it's some kind of divine fiat that the humans rule as the unchallenged master race, or humans are just so much better at everything that every other species can only look up to them in fear and awe and jealousy. Bleach. It's all such a load of self-aggrandizing w*nk from the (human) writers for the (human) players. I'd honestly rather have no non-humans at all, or no humans for a real change of pace, than that sort of worn-out BS.

 

What I hate is Bioware's handling of their suggested lore.

 

The concept... is that a mage in DA must have strong willpower.  This I find very appealing as a requirement.  Most people really have no idea what strong willpower is.  Being an obstinate a-hole is NOT strong willpower.  Being a slave to your emotions is NOT strong willpower. 

 

I liked what DA:O had to say about mages... how mages, despite their phenomenal power were always hunted by forces beyond the world because:  "True tests never end."  And they shouldn't have... not for player mages, not for NPC mages - but they did (that the "test" for the Warden mage never shows up again is a missed opportunity.)

 

[...] Time and again the mages of DA:O fail... and the consequences are dire.  This was good fiction in my opinion.

 

[...] Then, it seems somewhere along the line someone said:  "Wouldn't they be cooler as superheroes!?  YEAH!"  And then every mage was SURE they were resistant to demons.  All the "dangers" were just mere inconveniences for "moar magix!"

 

A group of radicals hellbent on feeding off their rage who make the MOST suitable finger puppets for an extra-dimensional force intent on invading Thedas... and, nothing.  Tossed out for some hackneyed story about victimization.

 

Yes, yes, yes. Can't upvote this enough. That need for constant, unyielding vigilance and discipline if you don't want your mind torn to shreds by the demons who are constantly watching you is what appealed to me about mage lore in Origins as well ... but even that game kind of half-arsed it, and in Inquisition none of that even matters anymore. Paradoxically enough, the writers' treatment of the mage issue has become purely political even while a whole load of evils that only mages can create are running amok in the world. When only a single mage (Vivienne), the one who holds views that many players want to hate on anyway and who is shown in a disctinctly unsympathetic light for the most part, mentions the risks of magic and the need for both internal and external restraint ... then she and that whole POV are so easily and conveniently dismissed as being for cowards and weaklings and tyrants.

 

When I play a character with supernatural powers, I don't want it to be a godmode power trip. I want to be able to pull off some seriously cool sh*t, sure, but I want both the awesome and the horrible, the benefits and the costs, the opportunities and the restrictions. And I want those downsides to be ones that players can't just wiggle, weasel or whine their way out of. Bioware has never done a good job with that sort of thing in any of their games, sadly, but in this series it's particularly obvious.

Also, thumbs-up for calling out "obstinate a-holes" and how they are often falsely equated with being strong-willed (or stong characters, for that matter).

[Bayonet Hipshot]

*snip*

 

This is why the best RPG characters for me have been characters who are Badass Normals. They don't come from a position of money or influence, they do not have special powers yet they manage to save the world with their skill and wit. Even if they did have powers, they had to learn like the way D&D Wizards to as opposed to just having powers Sorcerer style.

 

I personally prefer playing Rogues over Warriors for this. Its because they are not super strong or super tough but they are clever, quick and willing to fight dirty to get things done.

 

As for Humans, I think the real issue is that all the Human playable characters we had are nobles. Even Hawke who was a commoner had noble ancestry and during the course of Dragon Age 2, ended up buying his noble family house. I think Humans would be a lot more appealing if they were purely commoners. Why did Bioware strip off the Human Barbarian Origin from DAO is truly beyond me.

[Gwydden]

Or it's some kind of divine fiat that the humans rule as the unchallenged master race, or humans are just so much better at everything that every other species can only look up to them in fear and awe and jealousy. Bleach. It's all such a load of self-aggrandizing w*nk from the (human) writers for the (human) players. I'd honestly rather have no non-humans at all, or no humans for a real change of pace, than that sort of worn-out BS.

I don't see it as being quite that way. I think in fantasy stories humans tend to be the dominant race at the time the story occurs in order to explain why there are humans everywhere. And the reason there are humans everywhere is, I believe, so non-humans will stand out more. In a world where they are the minority, humans would logically be the weird ones. A universe where human is the norm and elf/dwarf/whatever is not fits better with the audience's mindset.

 

There's nothing particularly impressive about being the dominant race, anyway. It's purely historical. Civilizations rising and falling is the way of things. In most fantasy stories of this sort, elves aren't defeated by humans. Rather the former disintegrate due to stagnation, as cultures are wont to do, and humans swoop in. That was the case in Middle Earth, and that is also the case in Thedas.

 

Middle Earth in particular is the one that established all of these races, by the way, and it certainly doesn't feel like humans are special there. If anything, elves are way too perfect and over the top there. I actually think that's one reason why people don't like elves. They tend to fall into Sue race territory pretty easily in fantasy fiction, much more so than humans even. That is not the case in DA, but old habits die hard.