20 réponses à ce sujet

[Patricia08]

What i also wonder is why Iron Bull greatly approves after killing his friends does someone has any thoughts about that

[CardButton]

It's been a while since I've done that quest but I'm pretty sure he "Greatly Approves" either decision.  If you tell him to save the Chargers he "greatly approves" because he saved his friends, but had to abandon the Qun to do so.  If you tell him to save the Dreadnaught "greatly approves" because he reconfirms is devotion to the Qun, but had to sacrifice his friends in the process.

 

Both were strong motivations for him, it was just a matter of time before he had to choose one over the other. 

[MiyuEmi]

My opinion: The Qunari people are brainwashed to support the Qun.  Iron Bull even admits that he willingly goes to someone to 'reset' his brain after he finds he doesn't like his initial profession.  As @CardButton says though, it's likely the initial response is the same for both, you'll just get plusses and minuses based on how to deal with follow up questions/comments.

 

I personally don't like the Qun as they're a heavily militarised society who, like the Tevinters, use conquer as a means of control.  They'll grow their ranks by taking in anyone who will swear fealty to the Qun even if it's only to be escape the law of their own governments.  They're a force to be reckoned with and they know it.

 

I never choose to save the Dreadnought because of this.  In my mind, it's only a matter of time before the Qunari arrive to formally attempt to take over Ferelden and Orlais and they've been sending representatives to observe these areas since DA: Origins (Sten and his compatriots).

[jlb524]

He's probably not comfortable making huge decisions like that. Qunari live their lives with others doing that for them, obv. It wasn't an option, but making Bull decide who to save might have been an approval loss.

[Midnight Bliss]

Bull loves his friends more than anything and always wants you to save the Chargers but can't take the initiative to ask you to sacrifice the Dreadnaught because the Qun is always mission first. When you meet him in DAI he's at sort of a middle ground of being halfway Tal-Vashoth anyway, but still can't take the final step to turn his back on the Qun.

 

Bull respects and admires the Inquis very much, so when s/he chooses to sacrifice the ship s/he's also teaching Bull it's okay to choose the people you love over the mission, and this is a lesson he never forgets, because when he's forced to make this choice again in trespasser he chooses you, his friend/lover, without question.

[Catilina]

What i also wonder is why Iron Bull greatly approves after killing his friends does someone has any thoughts about that

Because he's a qunari.

[CardButton]

My opinion: The Qunari people are brainwashed to support the Qun.  Iron Bull even admits that he willingly goes to someone to 'reset' his brain after he finds he doesn't like his initial profession.  As @CardButton says though, it's likely the initial response is the same for both, you'll just get plusses and minuses based on how to deal with follow up questions/comments.

 

I personally don't like the Qun as they're a heavily militarised society who, like the Tevinters, use conquer as a means of control.  They'll grow their ranks by taking in anyone who will swear fealty to the Qun even if it's only to be escape the law of their own governments.  They're a force to be reckoned with and they know it.

 

I never choose to save the Dreadnought because of this.  In my mind, it's only a matter of time before the Qunari arrive to formally attempt to take over Ferelden and Orlais and they've been sending representatives to observe these areas since DA: Origins (Sten and his compatriots).

Hmm ... I don't know, the Qun (like it's people) is a very function oriented. 

 

It's very communally driven, rather than individualistic, which is interesting and the idea of choosing a persons career path for them based off of the inherent qualities they exhibit during childhood and early adolescence at bare minimum makes use of their entire labor force effectively (everyone has a job and nobody goes to waste).  This is why I can kind of buy the story Bull tells Krem about how the Qun handles Gender-Identity as if you think about it, it really doesn't contradict Sten in any way.  If Krem exhibited a male gender identity and a proficiency for combat while growing up under the Qun, then the Qunari would have decided his career path based off of those traits ... they would not have forced Krem into a job that didn't fit him just to adhere to traditional gender roles.  

 

There are no deities of any kind and as such the Qun is representative of something like Confusionism more than anything else.  There is also no competition for resources within Qunari held territory so all of the natural resources they have are used to their maximum potential (outside of magic for some reason) and the drive to progress technologically comes from the competition they receive from outside forces.  There is also no social or race classifications under the Qun, everyone has a function that they are best used for ... that is all that matters to the Qun.  Sex is also ... just a thing that happens ... so sexual preferance based of gender wouldn't really matter to the Qunari.  It's also an extremely rare and successful Matriarchal society, which is fascinating. 

 

I would actually love to learn the backstory as to what drove the Kossith (the pre-Qun Qunari) to develop such an extreme philosophical and political ideology, it must have been an equally extreme reaction to something that occurred in the species past.  I hope we get a chance to find out in future games. 

[MiyuEmi]

@CardButton  Kossith history would be interesting to discover, I definitely agree.  If I had to hazard a guess I would say the Qun was started as a means of unity and in an attempt to create unity, it was fashioned into a means of control.  Like all races in Thedas, it's very easy for the Qunari to fracture and branch off into their own ideological groups such as Tal Vashoth (sorry can't spell that!). 

 

I think the Qun is used a way to give the Qunari people one mind-set, kind of like some currently existing religious organisations.  The only problem is like all of similar belief systems, it does fail because there is always a chance that someone is going to disagree with your ideals and want to develop their own.  Those who find the Qun restrictive but like themselves as they are will branch off and become Tal Vashoth.  The Qunari people pay such a high price for disobeying the Qun that it makes me think it is a religious/political organisation at it's core.

 

I think it might be hard for me to express my beliefs on this (as I'm currently at work!) clearly.  I do think there is an element of brainwashing that's going on however as they've built a highly hierarchy dependent society, which in the end doesn't usually benefit everyone...well, almost never benefits everyone.  Hierarchal societies breed discontent and resentment if rewards are not equally distributed. 

 

While I understand your point about the Qun being happy for everyone doing what they do best, it's also clear from game dialogue that you're not always given the chance to do what you want.  Women, can't fight, according to Sten, unless you wish to be a man.  As a woman you are a baker or artisan.  They have really clearly defined societal roles which, if there weren't at least an element of brain washing going on, would make them one of the, if not the most, un-unified peoples in Thedas.  Just an opinion, but clearly a well written society for such complex debates!

[Knight of Dane]

Isn't it just that he greatly approves that you "completed his personal mission?" You get it regardless of your choice don't you?

[CardButton]

@CardButton  Kossith history would be interesting to discover, I definitely agree.  If I had to hazard a guess I would say the Qun was started as a means of unity and in an attempt to create unity, it was fashioned into a means of control.  Like all races in Thedas, it's very easy for the Qunari to fracture and branch off into their own ideological groups such as Tal Vashoth (sorry can't spell that!). 

 

I think the Qun is used a way to give the Qunari people one mind-set, kind of like some currently existing religious organisations.  The only problem is like all of similar belief systems, it does fail because there is always a chance that someone is going to disagree with your ideals and want to develop their own.  Those who find the Qun restrictive but like themselves as they are will branch off and become Tal Vashoth.  The Qunari people pay such a high price for disobeying the Qun that it makes me think it is a religious/political organisation at it's core.

 

I think it might be hard for me to express my beliefs on this (as I'm currently at work!) clearly.  I do think there is an element of brainwashing that's going on however as they've built a highly hierarchy dependent society, which in the end doesn't usually benefit everyone...well, almost never benefits everyone.  Hierarchal societies breed discontent and resentment if rewards are not equally distributed. 

 

While I understand your point about the Qun being happy for everyone doing what they do best, it's also clear from game dialogue that you're not always given the chance to do what you want.  Women, can't fight, according to Sten, unless you wish to be a man.  As a woman you are a baker or artisan.  They have really clearly defined societal roles which, if there weren't at least an element of brain washing going on, would make them one of the, if not the most, un-unified peoples in Thedas.  Just an opinion, but clearly a well written society for such complex debates!

Right?  While I would never want to live under the Qun I do find it fascinating as a governing system.  

 

Also "happy" really isn't the right word ... I think they would argue "practical" is more their chief reason for the Qun choosing of career paths based off of inherent skills and traits. Person A would excel at task/job A, person B would excel at task/job B and so on, and so fourth.  They may get satisfaction out of being good at their jobs, but happiness doesn't seem to be a chief concern. 

[CardButton]

@CardButton  Kossith history would be interesting to discover, I definitely agree.  If I had to hazard a guess I would say the Qun was started as a means of unity and in an attempt to create unity, it was fashioned into a means of control.  Like all races in Thedas, it's very easy for the Qunari to fracture and branch off into their own ideological groups such as Tal Vashoth (sorry can't spell that!). 

 

I think it might be hard for me to express my beliefs on this (as I'm currently at work!) clearly.  I do think there is an element of brainwashing that's going on however as they've built a highly hierarchy dependent society, which in the end doesn't usually benefit everyone...well, almost never benefits everyone.  Hierarchal societies breed discontent and resentment if rewards are not equally distributed. 

 

 Women, can't fight, according to Sten, unless you wish to be a man.  As a woman you are a baker or artisan.  They have really clearly defined societal roles which, if there weren't at least an element of brain washing going on, would make them one of the, if not the most, un-unified peoples in Thedas.  

Also neat side note Sten says women don't fight, not that they are not combat trained.  

 

More specifically he seems to take issue with Women being soldiers, which is apparently is indeed a traditionally male job in Qunari society.  Yes he does say women normally hold the roles of bakers and artisans (or priests, who are apparently combat trained considering the one in "Trespasser"), but remember this is a Matriarchal society so it isn't completely one sided.  Men apparently dominate the military roles of the Qun, but it seems Women play a far larger role in the actual governance of society than men.

 

Women can be priests or matriarchs, so they dominate both the Religious and Bureaucratic decisions (two of the three governing forces of the Qun).  Perhaps even more important to their society are the Den Mothers or "Tamassrans" who outside of actually doing motherly things also have ALL the power to choose which career path each child in Qunari society (male and female) takes; which means not only do they need to have the intuitive ability to analyze and understand a youth's talents, but they also need a reasonable understanding of almost every job in the Qun in order to find the best fit.  The women are actually the one's enforcing the Gender-Specific jobs. 

 

In a strange way despite the physical differences in gender playing a role I get the feeling that men are primarily the soldiers because ... they are simply considered more expendable then women, especially since Monogamous relationships really don't exist (sex is just sex, reproduction is just reproduction).  Women hold the infrastructure of the entire Qun together, the least the males can do is defend all their hard work. 

 

Yes, there are dark parts of the Qun, but there are dark parts of every culture (real and fictional).  The Qun is a form of society that values "Security" for its citizens far more than they value "Freedom" and as such its intriguing.    I think a lot of players demonize it more than it deserves partially because of how starkly it compares to the societies they grew up with in real life. 

[Navasha]

Iron Bull is a drone just like all members of the Qun.    He is conflicted between what he knows to be right on ones side and everything he has been told to believe by the Qun on the other.    He's standing on the razor's edge here and he just needs to be pushed into one direction or the other.    Either choose to friends, individuality, and the emotional attachments he's made or to choose to go back to being a Qun slave like he's always been taught to be.  

 

Either way he greatly approves.   

[Midnight Bliss]

Isn't it just that he greatly approves that you "completed his personal mission?" You get it regardless of your choice don't you?

Hissrad approves of saving the Dreadnaught.

 

The Iron Bull approves of saving the people he cares about.

[Dai Grepher]

I think it comes down to certainty. The Iron Bull just wanted certainty in his life. Either choice grants that. Either he reaffirms his place in the Qun, or he establishes a place with his Chargers and possibly the Inquisition as well.

[Nefla]

He greatly approves of either choice because BIoWare didn't want to penalize any choice or action so every choice in the game is equivalent.

[vbibbi]

Hissrad approves of saving the Dreadnaught.

 

The Iron Bull approves of saving the people he cares about.

I think he is relieved the decision has been made, and it's not fully on his shoulders. There are pros and cons to both side for him, so if he can share some of the burden of the consequences with the Inquisitor, all the better.

[Kurogane335]

 

I personally don't like the Qun as they're a heavily militarised society who, like the Tevinters, use conquer as a means of control.  They'll grow their ranks by taking in anyone who will swear fealty to the Qun even if it's only to be escape the law of their own governments.  They're a force to be reckoned with and they know it.

 

You're conscious that the Chantry/Solas does exactly the same, while being worse by supporting corrupt societies and ideologies, right ?

[AlanC9]

He greatly approves of either choice because BIoWare didn't want to penalize any choice or action so every choice in the game is equivalent.

You haven't played Trespasser yet, huh?

[Nefla]

You haven't played Trespasser yet, huh?

Yes I have. You're right that the DLC has an impact based on on the earlier choice. I felt Trespasser was in improvement on the base game in many ways.

[Knight of Dane]

Hissrad approves of saving the Dreadnaught.

 

The Iron Bull approves of saving the people he cares about.

 

Dogmeat approves of getting the stick.

[Big I]

Either choose to friends, individuality, and the emotional attachments he's made or to choose to go back to being a Qun slave like he's always been taught to be.  

 

There were a hundred people on that dreadnought. Allying with the Qunari means you can help them stop the Venatori from trying to burn Denerim to the ground. I may not agree with the Qun, but there are good, moral reasons for sacrificing the Chargers.