26 réponses à ce sujet

[Mykel54]

I´ve noticed how the arguments of pro-freedom or pro-circles hinge on basics like how spirits are dangerous, yet the game shows us different perspectives like the chantry, tevinter, solas, the avvar, etc. All those have different ways of dealing with magic, but it also has to do with how they view demons and spirits.

 

In DAI the big revelation is Solas of course, where he challenges all chantry perspectives on demons, claiming that they´re no different. Cole also comes in as a sort of confused demon who can be redeemed to become a spirit again. The views of Solas are given extra credibiltiy when in Trespasser we find out about who made the Veil, so arguably, he must know his stuff.

 

So the question is: which view on spirits/demons is more correct? One could argue that the chantry´s view is wrong, and that therefore the whole circle system is unneeded too. However i could also argue that in Arlathan´s time magic was out of control and nothing would have gone wrong if not for power-hungry mages, so Solas ideal scenario isn´t very encouraging.

 

Do spirits really change into demons according to what you think of them? Ingame nothing supports this evidence, except maybe Solas personal quest when the pride demon becomes a spirit. In the novels Rhys is a medium who talks with spirits, and the whole spirit healer specialization is based on chantry mages who rely on spirits that are helpful. They are clearly differentiated from demons.

 

Can we know, from an out of setting view, how really demons and spirits work? So far all we have are theories made up by ingame characters, with little proof of support for one or another. Maybe it has been left this way on purpose, but i find annoying that we cannot know the truth and only get more and more disparate views.

[Abyss108]

I've never understood why anyone would think there is a difference between spirits and demons... They are all just the embodiment of various emotions. It makes no sense to me to classify positive emotions as something different from negative emotions.

[Ghost Gal]

You know, I think the literal spirit companion and the man who spent millennia in the Fade actually talking to and interacting with spirits on their home turf know more about the nature of spirits than a bunch of mortals who spend all their time in the physical world, never interacting with spirits except to summon and bind them against their will (Tevinter and Circle mages) demonize them from a distance (the Chantry), or accidentally draw negative demons to them because of their negative emotions and expectations.

[Dai Grepher]

Solas is wrong. While there are cases where a spirit can be corrupted into a demon by a person, I don't think it has to do with how the person expects them to look, except for perhaps special circumstances. Desire Demons can be female even to heterosexual females. So clearly this isn't always the case. Maybe the more basic or "younger" spirits will mimic whatever they perceive in the mind of a person, but I don't think the more advanced ones do that.

 

As for the Circles, of course the Chantry is right to have them. The Circles are there primarily to teach mages to resist possession by spirits or demons. You can't have that going on in the world. Sigrid Gulsdotten was possessed by a friendly spirit, and even in this possible scenario she was more powerful and skilled as a mage than even some magisters and first enchanters. Even if she could handle this, most would not be able to. Like Grandin. Solas is clearly spouting ideals with no basis in reality, as Vivienne can eloquently point out in party banter.

 

Spirits and demons are distinctions, even though all demons are spirits also. Non-demon spirits are usually defined by one emotion or aspect of the human psyche. They are either neutral or good. Demons are defined by their affinity to the negative aspects or emotions of humanity. So in this case, it might be possible for a demon to become a spirit if it changes its alignment to be one of goodness.

[Dai Grepher]

I've never understood why anyone would think there is a difference between spirits and demons... They are all just the embodiment of various emotions. It makes no sense to me to classify positive emotions as something different from negative emotions.

 

Because one kind wants to kill you, and the other doesn't.

[Dai Grepher]

You know, I think the literal spirit companion and the man who spent millennia in the Fade actually talking to and interacting with spirits on their home turf know more about the nature of spirits than a bunch of mortals who spend all their time in the physical world, never interacting with spirits except to summon and bind them against their will (Tevinter and Circle mages) demonize them from a distance (the Chantry), or accidentally draw negative demons to them because of their negative emotions and expectations.

 

But the thing to remember about Solas is that he has his head crammed up a thousand years ago, as Sera points out. Things don't work the way he remembers. And just because he spent millennia mingling with spirits in dreams doesn't mean he perceived everything as it really was. He could be misremembering or he may have drawn the wrong conclusions from what he observed. Like Ostagar. One perspective is that Loghain was a devious traitor. Another was that he was brave enough to know not to throw more lives at a hopeless situation. How do we know Solas drew the correct conclusions from all the numerous interactions he had with various spirits over those thousands of years?

[Mykel54]

I also question the argument that Solas views are more legitimate because of how old or knowledgeable he is, in that case, then Corypheus should be given the benefit of the doubt and let him do what he wants, because he is a master mage who controls demons like pets, is immortal, and actually went to the black city, so he knows way more about the fade than any normal mage in thedas - so he knows better than you?

[Dabrikishaw]

Nothing Solas says is a contradiction to what we already knew. I don't have a problem accepting his point of view on things.

[VorexRyder]

Or Solas might be projecting/biased due to all the **** he's been through. Age can bring wisdom, but it can also entrench you more firmly in folly.

[Helmetto]

First off: Cole was always a Spirit of Compassion. He was never a demon.

 

Second: Solas may be a credible source, but he is a biased one, and a lot of what he says can be interpreted as propaganda for his cause. I have no reason to trust his information, or believe that he's not lying through omniscience. Also See: The Chantry, which suffers from the same problems, and pretty much everybody with an agenda.

 

Third: There has always been a clear distinction between spirits and demons. Wynne bonded with a spirit, and didn't turn into a demon. Leliana could be a spirit, and retained human form. Demons can also disguise as humans, but bonding with a demon seems to turn you into a monster.

 

The only grey thing is the actions that spirits can make to support their specific emotion. So.

 

Point is: my view points are based on what I've seen, with very little input from the old foggy team, and no 'one' view is more trustworthy than the other.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

We see that some demons are just twisted spirits, but I'm not sure if even Solas suggests that demons can't exist on their own as well.

[Lazarillo]

Because one kind wants to kill you, and the other doesn't.

To be fair, you meet plenty of "demons" who would just as soon not kill you if you don't force their hand.  Similarly, Cole, as "spirit", does an awful lot of killing (in the name of helping, to be sure, but still), as does Justice.

 

Unless, of course, you are claiming that Spirits want to kill you, and Demons don't?

 

As for the topic at hand, I agree with those who are saying Solas has experience, and with it, knowledge, but he also has opinions, and he is more than willing to let those cloud his perspective a little, just like anyone else.

[o Ventus]

The difference between spirits and demons seems like the difference between dogs and wolves. Dogs and wolves are both canines (spirits and demons are both mystical entities that embody emotions), but they carry different traits (spirits are generally positive traits, demons are generally negative) and exhibit different behaviors (spirits are demonstrably more likely to "help" people, whereas demons are typically more malevolent), and both come from a common starting point (the origins of spirits and demons are not known, but I would argue that it's not too much of a sttretch to think they have similar backgrounds, given how they are the same basic type of creature).

[Dai Grepher]

To be fair, you meet plenty of "demons" who would just as soon not kill you if you don't force their hand.  Similarly, Cole, as "spirit", does an awful lot of killing (in the name of helping, to be sure, but still), as does Justice.

 

Unless, of course, you are claiming that Spirits want to kill you, and Demons don't?

 

As for the topic at hand, I agree with those who are saying Solas has experience, and with it, knowledge, but he also has opinions, and he is more than willing to let those cloud his perspective a little, just like anyone else.

 

I'm claiming that this is the reason for the distinction in Thedas. Most of the demons want to kill people or take them over. So that's the primary standard for determining what is a demon.

 

Some spirits can kill, or want to kill bad people or things. Justice was one such spirit. Depends on motive. Imshael didn't want to kill the Inquisitor, but if a deal is made he goes off to kill Michael instead. And the only reason he really kept him alive was out of curiosity of cat & mouse games.

[Abyss108]

Because one kind wants to kill you, and the other doesn't.

 

I've met plenty of demons that didn't want to kill me.

 

Not to mention, a creature isn't suddenly defined as being something different just because it wants to kill you. A murderer is still human. A rabid dog is still a dog.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Abyss108:  Your naming thing... it's important to your argument, but I think the conclusion you're drawing is way off.  There's reason why we imprison a human labeled as a "murderer" and put down a dog labeled as "rabid".

 

A creature is absolutely defined as something different when it wants to kill you.  That is the whole point of language. 

 

(Side note:  Take planets.  Pluto is no longer a planet because someone decided to change it's name.  Pluto didn't change at all, but our perception of Pluto has.  So too with rabid dogs and murderers.)

 

So... do you want us to call them "dangerous" spirits?  or "demonic" spirits?  What would be the point of changing demon.  It is a title to indicate something more dangerous than your average spirit.

 

And no.. you have not encountered a demon in these games that has not hurt, possessed, or killed a mortal in some way (it's a little scary that you're only concerned with what a demon wants with you and not what it's done to others).  The demons dragged through the Veil in DA:I are displaced currently - were they in the Veil they'd be trying to fingerpuppet a mage and once they get into the world in a mortal body (where they can sense things) they'll try to manipulate it according to their nature... and with nature's like "Pride" "Desire" and "Sloth" nothing good's going to come out of their actions.

 

Let's not pretend every spirit/demon is a Cole. 

[Sah291]

I don't think the new info Solas gives is necessarily meant to contradict everything we've already learned in the game, but is just supposed to be a different perspective and a different take on it all... so no, I don't think the game is saying one side is more true or not, but giving the player reasons to agree or disagree. It would be boring and one sided if we only ever got the Chantry perspective.

[Lazarillo]

And no.. you have not encountered a demon in these games that has not hurt, possessed, or killed a mortal in some way (it's a little scary that you're only concerned with what a demon wants with you and not what it's done to others).  The demons dragged through the Veil in DA:I are displaced currently - were they in the Veil they'd be trying to fingerpuppet a mage and once they get into the world in a mortal body (where they can sense things) they'll try to manipulate it according to their nature... and with nature's like "Pride" "Desire" and "Sloth" nothing good's going to come out of their actions.

To be fair, you also haven't encountered a party member in these games that has not hurt, possessed, or killed a mortal in some way.

 

However, I think you might have touched on what makes the two different, there: both "demons" and "spirits" seek simply to act out their natures, but "demons" need human victims to do that.  If you embody "hunger" or "desire" than you need to get those things from somewhere, to take them from someone else.  If you embody "valor" or "knowledge", then in many ways you achieve that ideal simply by existing.  As a result, demons can be seen as parasite spirits, perhaps.

[Beerfish]

Spirits - Hey this place is neat, I like you guys can I help?

Demons - RAWR!  I am going to kill you all (after sucking up all of your emotions!)

 

So no they are no more the 'same' than saying all humans are the same.

[Dai Grepher]

I've met plenty of demons that didn't want to kill me.

 

Not to mention, a creature isn't suddenly defined as being something different just because it wants to kill you. A murderer is still human. A rabid dog is still a dog.

 

I meant the general "you". As in people. Most demons want to kill, harm, or manipulate people. So people classify them as demons.

 

But I didn't say demons weren't spirits. They are spirits with the extra classification of "demon" based on their behaviors.
 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Lazarillo:  But we've met a ton of NPC farmers, stablehands, etc. that haven't hurt a soul.  And the codexes (our only other source of information other than what the game shows us) clearly states that demons are pretty nasty beings in a variety of ways.

 

I think people don't understand the nature of what the Fade is and by extension spirit/demons.  

 

The Fade is very literally a place of "Thought Energy".  This energy can be manipulated by any, and all, mortal creatures first and foremost (mages directly, mundanes indirectly)... but also by rare powerful spirits/demons - and, presumably a theoretical Maker. 

 

We know the Evauris fall into the first category (mortals - regardless of ancient immortality - they're flesh and blood creatures that knew of death even if it didn't come from old age).  I actually disagree that they were mortals - but that is just theory.

 

We can be almost certain that the Avvar gods fall into the second. 

 

And the Forgotten Ones and Old Gods are kinda up in the air (but most certainly either once mortals or spirits).

 

Now, back to "Thought Energy" - it's the whole reason why mages exist and by extension why studying DA magic like a science is preposterous.  It's based off thought - and thereby extremely mutable.  It's why Solas can encounter magics he never saw before... because nobody thought of them previously. 

 

Also, it's not so simple as just "having a thought" so no... mages can't just magic up brand new magic every day. 

 

But my point is that... spirits/demon are the natural inhabitants of this "thought realm" and we are shown that they have no original thoughts of their own.  Once they start stealing thoughts (demons) or inheriting thoughts (spirits) they become more complex.  I think Solas is oversimplifying his commentary about spirits/demons changing to our perceptions.  I think if he weren't such an obtuse a-hole... he'd say something more akin to the fact that spirits/demons are sponges who - not unlike a person - will absorb anything it comes into contact with an emulate it. 

 

So, if a wisp encounters a mage full of pride... or fear... or desire or rage in one of its first encounters with mortals... it learned those things first and "becomes what we saw it as".

 

Eventually - they can become Cole, but I trust Bioware to make this extremely rare.  I hope I am not as let down as I have been. 

 

NOTE:  I also believe the Evanuris are like Cole.  I believe they were spirits first.... gods second... elves last.  I believe there is a ton of evidence that supports this... from the Forbidden Ones... to some of Solas' comments about himself:  "I was Fen'Harel (Pride) first..."

[Donquijote and 59 others]

I've never understood why anyone would think there is a difference between spirits and demons... They are all just the embodiment of various emotions. It makes no sense to me to classify positive emotions as something different from negative emotions.

Spirits of the fade are a reflection of a specific sentiment,they don't mix those emotions like mortals do,so a demon will always be only driven by it's emotion and if that emotion is pride,anger or desire the creature will become dangerous.

[Abyss108]

 

Spirits of the fade are a reflection of a specific sentiment,they don't mix those emotions like mortals do,so a demon will always be only driven by it's emotion and if that emotion is pride,anger or desire the creature will become dangerous.

 

 

Yes? But people use the term "spirit" and "demon" like they are different species. We don't refer to a creature as something different based of whether it's currently dangerous or not.

 

A rabbit and a wolf are both "animals" even though one is dangerous and one is not.

Likewise, Wisdom and Pride should still both be a spirit (or both demon) in my mind.

[Abyss108]

@Abyss108:  Your naming thing... it's important to your argument, but I think the conclusion you're drawing is way off.  There's reason why we imprison a human labeled as a "murderer" and put down a dog labeled as "rabid".

 

A creature is absolutely defined as something different when it wants to kill you.  That is the whole point of language. 

 

(Side note:  Take planets.  Pluto is no longer a planet because someone decided to change it's name.  Pluto didn't change at all, but our perception of Pluto has.  So too with rabid dogs and murderers.)

 

So... do you want us to call them "dangerous" spirits?  or "demonic" spirits?  What would be the point of changing demon.  It is a title to indicate something more dangerous than your average spirit.

 

And no.. you have not encountered a demon in these games that has not hurt, possessed, or killed a mortal in some way (it's a little scary that you're only concerned with what a demon wants with you and not what it's done to others).  The demons dragged through the Veil in DA:I are displaced currently - were they in the Veil they'd be trying to fingerpuppet a mage and once they get into the world in a mortal body (where they can sense things) they'll try to manipulate it according to their nature... and with nature's like "Pride" "Desire" and "Sloth" nothing good's going to come out of their actions.

 

Let's not pretend every spirit/demon is a Cole. 

 

You mean a creature is treated different if it wants to kill you. I never said people shouldn't treat a spirit different based of what emotion it is, or that every spirit/demon is Cole. You're changing my argument.

 

We imprison a murderer. We don't suddenly decide they are a different species.

We put down a rabid dog. But it doesn't stop being a dog.

But if a spirit is dangerous, it suddenly stops being a spirit.

[Gervaise]

I must admit I've been puzzling a bit over Solas' assertion about his friend.  Why would a spirit of Wisdom turn into a Pride demon when twisted against its purpose?   The opposite of Wisdom would be Ignorance; the opposite of Pride is Humility.   When Anders' hatred twisted Justice it became Vengeance, which made sense.     If the emotions of the mages that summoned it were responsible for the change, then surely the uppermost emotion in their minds was fear?   If the spirit was changed by being summoned against its will then surely the most appropriate emotion would be rage?

 

I'm also a bit puzzled how it could have attacked the bandits and left their corpses where it did and yet still be contained within a summoning Circle.  

 

All these beings are spirits.   The classification of demon is just something that people find easier to distinguish between those that seem helpful and those that do not.    Imshael objects to being called a demon but clearly, on the basis of intent towards others and what he did to the clan in Masked Empire, he is what we have come to know as a demon.     He is clearly far more complex than a simple emotion and this seems to be the case with all the more powerful spirits, particularly considering that they seem to be able to live outside the Fade and even take on the realistic appearance of mortals, without actually having to possess anyone.      So we have a range of spirits from the very weak wisps, that Solas doesn't even seem to consider are real people like other spirits, since he doesn't object to them being torn apart by necromancy (while Cole does) right up to powerful ancient powers that have their origins in spirits but tend to be known as gods, like the Forbidden Ones.   The Evanuris, the Forgotten Ones and Solas himself, plus probably all the ancient elves likely had their origins in the Fade and are spirits that have taken on material form.   The longer they stayed out of the Fade, the more material they became and also more complex in their emotions and motivations.   When Solas created the Veil, those trapped on the Fade side retained all their spiritual power, so when they do find their way through to the material world, they are still something to be reckoned with.    When slain on the Thedas side, they don't die but simply return to the Fade, greatly weakened, and reform.   The stronger their character development this side of the Veil, the better chance they have of retaining their identity when they are banished back to the Fade.    So Mythal retained her memory and identity when "murdered" even though reduced to a wisp, whilst apparently Solas' friend will not, even though still reforming as Wisdom.   

 

No one knows exactly what happens to ancient elves when they are killed but no doubt they return to some basic spirit identity.    Which is why I think Solas isn't bothered about destroying the world and everything in it because the elves he wants to save will be able to reform anew in the Fade.     Modern elves by contrast were born into the material world and so whilst still having the magical signature in their blood are far enough removed from the spirit origins that they will not simply regenerate as spirits or if they do, they will certainly have no memory or identity with their former life.