56 réponses à ce sujet

[Patricia08]

Should Blackwall ( Tom Rainier ) stay imprisoned for giving those orders for the rest of his life or be hanged or "free" and what about that Mornay guy they should still hang him for killing innocent women and children he should never have followed those orders

[MiyuEmi]

I always release Blackwall and allow him to attempt to atone for his crimes but no one in that debacle was innocent.  Blackwall followed and gave orders despite knowing children were there.  If you have him and Cole in the party at the same time, prior to learning he is Tom Rainer, you will get insight on what happened.  I only release him because I like keeping my companions all together once I've recruited them.  If you talk to him though, he doesn't seem to have strong feelings either way and seems content to remain in prison/be executed, for his crimes.  I suppose finally upon hearing that someone under his command involved in the killings was being executed made him decide it was time to give up the lie and turn himself in.

 

There is also apparently unique dialogue with Alistair (if he is your warden and not Stroud) stating that he knows Blackwall.  I haven't seen it yet as I forgot and didn't have Blackwall in my party in my latest playthrough while meeting Alistair in Crestwood.

 

So I suppose the choice is dependent on what you want to do and how you feel about him as a companion.

[AnimalBoy]

I always make him a Grey Warden.

[MidnightWolf]

I always release Blackwall and allow him to attempt to atone for his crimes but no one in that debacle was innocent. Blackwall followed and gave orders despite knowing children were there. If you have him and Cole in the party at the same time, prior to learning he is Tom Rainer, you will get insight on what happened. I only release him because I like keeping my companions all together once I've recruited them. If you talk to him though, he doesn't seem to have strong feelings either way and seems content to remain in prison/be executed, for his crimes. I suppose finally upon hearing that someone under his command involved in the killings was being executed made him decide it was time to give up the lie and turn himself in.

There is also apparently unique dialogue with Alistair (if he is your warden and not Stroud) stating that he knows Blackwall. I haven't seen it yet as I forgot and didn't have Blackwall in my party in my latest playthrough while meeting Alistair in Crestwood.

So I suppose the choice is dependent on what you want to do and how you feel about him as a companion.

Alistair doesn't say he knows him, he states that he's heard of him via Duncan. But I always assumed that he meant the real Warden Blackwall.
Anyway.....As for me, I usually give him the chance to go through the joining and become a Warden. Although I have left him in prison before.

[MzChaos]

I leave him there... in prison... and as far as I am concerned... the men who followed his orders should be hanged right alongside.

 

But that is just me.

[MiyuEmi]

@MidnightWolf  Thanks for that!  I wasn't sure as I failed to have Blackwall with me.  On the one playthrough where I've made my keep settings to allow Alistair to be my Warden I fail to bring Blackwall with me!

[Patricia08]

If i take him and Cole in the same party it will be offly quiet then

 

And i am not familiar with Alistair it's always Stroud ??

[Obsidian Gryphon]

Blackwall followed and gave orders despite knowing children were there. 

 

Is there a difference in what Cole said and what Blackwall later revealed in prison? Blackwall thought Callier was travelling with his armed guards, not his family and he had told his men they were fighting for their country, their ruler. I would presume he told them Callier was a traitor and all who travelled with him were traitors so everyone had to die. If he spoke enough to incite their patriotic fervor, they would be down and laying about the travelling party without any thought except their objective; to save their country.

 

How would the scenario go?

 

1] Callier was riding out in the open with his retainers and a few guards. His family rode in a carriage. Maybe he had a son old enough to ride. Blackwall and party rushed out, attacked. When one of his men pulled open the carriage doors, he said there's women and children in there. Blackwall, in fear at the thought of his mistake and the witnesses, then continued to carry out his goal and killed everyone. He then ordered his men  to scatter and flee. This one is terrible because craven fear dictated his actions.

 

* Alternatively, it was not fear but his ambitions, the gold he would earn and his duty to finish the job properly. Hence, he slaughtered the family mercilessly. Does this even sound like him?

 

2] Callier didn't ride out in the open, he sat in the carriage with his family. His retainers and guards marched or rode. Blackwall and men attacked. A couple rushed in and barred the doors of the carriage, then archers fired the vehicle, burning everyone inside. Outside, all of Callier's men are dead. The attacking party heard the cries of women and children. They realised what they had done. Blackwall ordered them to scatter and flee. This one was a mistake he could not rectify and regretted deeply.

[MiyuEmi]

@Obsidian Gryphon  I think, unless I've been interpreting this all wrong, Cole makes it clear that Blackwall heard the children in the carriage before telling his men to carry out the order.  Cole notes that Blackwall heard the children singing a song in the carriage.  I think then, Blackwalls confession to you about just sitting by while he watched children torture and kill (can't remember if they kill it) a dog and doing nothing, in a nod to him telling his men to go ahead and carry out their orders despite knowing the children were present.  I think he regrets his level of inaction then an equates it to his inability to call off the hit despite hearing the children.

[gldartt]

It's funny, I'm on my third play-through. My first one, I got him out, being empathetic the whole time because I didn't know where the game was going to take it, but I never really used him much in the party before or afterward (I found him boring), so didn't notice much in the way of repercussions. My second PT, I "let him rot" (like Leliana, I have a soft spot for Grey Wardens so hated that he dared trade on their reputation), so again, nothing really significant influenced my game. This PT, though, I've been using all the different companions as opposed to my favorites to get different party banter, and thus, had been taking him out on missions all along. Since my Inquisitor is now a rogue archer, as opposed to my original warrior, it's nice to still have two warriors (Cassandra/Iron Bull and/or Blackwall) along with a mage in the party. As tanks go, he's extremely useful. But man, is Cassandra really pissed at him! She's been totally snarky with how she addresses him, whereas before, she was rather friendly and admiring of him. Viv, on the other hand, never liked him, so she feels totally vindicated. I will say, he's a lot more interesting as a character once you know he's lying through his teeth the entire time. I don't find him particularly repentant, either, once he's back.

 

So personally, I'm of the 'let him rot" school, and believe that it's Orlais's problem, not the Inquisition's. Let them hang him. However, if he is taken by the Inquisition, then yeah, he should be imprisoned, or given to the Wardens to let them deal with him. Since it's not certain he'll survive the joining, that serves as fitting punishment, but if he does, then at least he's doing some good to make up for his crime for the rest of his life before eventually having to go to the deep roads to die fighting darkspawn after he's been called. My Inquisitor can live with that.

 

As for Mornay, following orders is part of how it works in that time period/culture of Dragon Age. I mean, what type of orders do all Leliana's spies follow? She's quite honest about the burden she carries, and it's on her, not on Harding or anyone else under her direction. I think that goes for any soldier. There was that bloody teddy bear in the Exalted Plains, after all. Was it the undead that did that, or an Orlaision soldier? Celene's or Gaspard's? And how did that soldier's commander deal with it? Are they all responsible for how those decisions play out when carrying out orders? I mean, if you're not in command, then you have to believe that your commander is making the right decisions for you based on the information they have. That's how it works in the military. If Mornay didn't know the situation until afterward, then he wasn't responsible for killing the noble's family as a soldier, Rainier was, as commander. It might not be admirable or pleasant or noble, but that's how it works. Because I'm pretty sure that plenty of other families, from children to grandparents, were put to death in Orlais/Fereldan over the past few decades, noble or otherwise, and it just depended on who was the winning side that determined if it was a crime or not in the aftermath. Nor do I believe any of those orders would necessarily be questioned by the average solder carrying them out.

[Big I]

I gave Blackwall his freedom as Thom Rainier. I didn't do it because I thought he deserved mercy, but because I knew that he would stay and help the Inquisition. You've got to remember how good a warrior he is; he won the Grand Tourney. That's like getting gold at the Olympics, except for ass kicking. He is without a doubt one of the greatest warriors of his generation. I'm supposed to let that talent go to waste? Or let the Wardens assign him somewhere where it doesn't help the Inquisiton? Hell no.

 

I was torn in that Judgment. I felt he deserved to atone for what he did, and joining the Wardens would have been the most appropriate way to do that. But in the end what I saw as the greater good (strengthening the Inquisition) was more important.

[MiyuEmi]

@BigI  Remember though that someone allowed him to win the Grand Tourney.  At least that's how he presents it.  Unless again that my memory is failing me.

[Obsidian Gryphon]

@Obsidian Gryphon  I think, unless I've been interpreting this all wrong, Cole makes it clear that Blackwall heard the children in the carriage before telling his men to carry out the order.  Cole notes that Blackwall heard the children singing a song in the carriage.  I think then, Blackwalls confession to you about just sitting by while he watched children torture and kill (can't remember if they kill it) a dog and doing nothing, in a nod to him telling his men to go ahead and carry out their orders despite knowing the children were present.  I think he regrets his level of inaction then an equates it to his inability to call off the hit despite hearing the children.

 

Ahh, ok. I don't bring Cole or Blackwall so that is a line I never heard. If he still had a chance to call off the attack and didn't do so, then he deserved to rot. If he didn't have a chance to stop his men, then he deserve a reprieve. Neither of which would be known.

 

The second would only happen if he wasn't with the actual attacking party but was nearby, scouting perhaps or overseeing something else and heard the children singing. When he realised what it meant, it was too late to stop his men.

[Beren Von Ostwick]

It varies by Inky and how I think each individual one would respond to the situation.  The latest one, a male elf warrior, to face that decision had this to say:

 

Spoiler

[MiyuEmi]

@Obsidiarn Gryphon  He says it after you know Blackwall's secret:

 

Blackwall: You, who heal the helpless...you're not angry about what I was hiding?

Cole: You never hid from me.  "Mockingbird, Mockingbird".  Too many voices in the carriage.  Maker, they're young.  If I tell my men to stop, they'll know it was all a lie.  Cold, Trapped, heart hammering like axes on a carriage door.

Blackwall: Stop.  Please.

 

I think it's clear he could have stopped his men but chose not to, to continue a lie.  It's possible there's a reason we're not made aware of as to why he didn't.  Still pretty damning though.

[Big I]

@BigI  Remember though that someone allowed him to win the Grand Tourney.  At least that's how he presents it.  Unless again that my memory is failing me.

 

He had a partner, an Orlesian chevalier who hoped to recruit Blackwall as an apprentice/squire (whatever a chevalier in training is called). I assume that since the melee isn't a team event that they had to face each other when they were the last two left.

[Obsidian Gryphon]

@MiyuEmi. Oh, it certainly is. The Blackheart. Now I'm sorry I saved him all the time. I always threw him to the Grey Wardens. 

 

His perpetual preachy dialogue gets in my hair. Never favoured him as a LI, I saw a vid of it and could hardly believe it when he left the Inky all naked, vulnerable and alone in the stable while he hie himself off to Orleis to turn himself in for his crime or his faithful old comrade would get it. If he wouldn't tell her, at least spare a minute to think of her dignity and how vulnerable she was, showed that he cared enough to think of someone else (cover her with something!) instead of that huge - Mea Culpa, I did wrong. It's all wrong. I 'm not worthy of her. I'm ABC, etc, etc. I must atone. I must atone. I must atone (x 100 times) all the way to Orleis.  

[Witch Cocktor]

I always give him another chance. Partly because of compassion, but also because there is some truth to what Inquisitor says if you decide to free him. He has to atone for the atrocities he has commited, and the judgmental eyes will always follow him wherever he goes.

 

I usually also pick the option in the war table mission where we bust in the jail and kill people while trying to get him back to Skyhold. It's even more of a grudge to bear for him, his actions influenced this senseless murder, and that is just adding salt to the injury.

[Catilina]

I also brought back Blackwall. I always give everyone a second chance (as in real life ...), if I consider that it makes sense.

[Navasha]

I always hand him over to the Grey Wardens.   I get the impression that the original Blackwall knew enough of Rainiers past and still considered him worthy enough to undertake the joining.    Besides the joing is both atonement and a death sentence.    Makes the perfect fitting punishment in my eyes.

[Wulfram]

I tend to leave him to rot. Sometimes I'll send him to the wardens, but generally I don't think he's worth using Inquisition resources getting him out of the prison.

[CardButton]

If i take him and Cole in the same party it will be offly quiet then

 

And i am not familiar with Alistair it's always Stroud ??

? Wait do you mean you always have Stroud as the Warden? 

 

If thats what you meant you can have Allistair as a replacement for Stroud if you use a Dragon Age Keep file and keep him a Warden in DA:O. The default is him being King so if you don't go out of your way to change it, you will always have Stroud.  You can also have Loghain if you so choose, though I think that Allistair makes the decision with Hawke the hardest to choose.

 

As for Blackwall, I always free him.  It seems pretty apparent that he has probably saved more lives in his quest as Blackwall then he is responsible for in murdering as Tom Rainer, but that never is the main reason for me doing so.  For the same reason I always ultimately save the Chargers my Inquisitor doesn't sacrifice assets for something unproven or superfluous.  For the Chargers ... I don't know what I'm actually getting from an alliance with the Qunari, but I do know exactly what I'm getting with them and she was unwilling to sacrifice tried and true for something unproven and vague.  For Blackwall, outside of lying about his identity, he had done nothing to suggest that he was anything but boon to the Inquisition. 

[Beerfish]

my 1st game I put him prison, 2nd game never had the chocie to do anything with him, i must have missed some game cues as he just disappeared at one point and I had some message about him being ranier near the end.

[Chardonney]

I always save Blackwall and free him to atone his crimes. What he did was very wrong but everyone deserves a second chance and deep down, he's a good man. In a way, he was a victim, too, victim of power hungry Orlesians and their stupid game.

[Lazarillo]

@Obsidiarn Gryphon  He says it after you know Blackwall's secret:

 

Blackwall: You, who heal the helpless...you're not angry about what I was hiding?

Cole: You never hid from me.  "Mockingbird, Mockingbird".  Too many voices in the carriage.  Maker, they're young.  If I tell my men to stop, they'll know it was all a lie.  Cold, Trapped, heart hammering like axes on a carriage door.

Blackwall: Stop.  Please.

 

I think it's clear he could have stopped his men but chose not to, to continue a lie.  It's possible there's a reason we're not made aware of as to why he didn't.  Still pretty damning though.

 

To be fair, Cole also makes it clear that the person he is now is not the person he was then,

 

It's that perspective that generally convinces me to keep Blackwall around.  I've always freed him as Thom in the past, mostly 'cause I thought he would leave the party if I sent him to the Wardens, but I now lean towards the idea that giving him to them is a good compromise, really.  Blackwall's crime is not insignificant, but as Cole also noted, there are plenty of reasons that probably almost all of my companions deserve to be locked in a prison somewhere.