27 Antworten in diesem Thema

[Qun00]

Aveline: You're incredibly talented, Merrill. I can see you are meant for great things.

Merrill: Thank you!

Aveline: But... You're stupid.

Merrill: I'm sorry, what?

Aveline: Don't you think it would be better to work on where you are now, instead of recreating old glory?

Merrill: No. No, that's kind of the opposite of what I've been saying. I'm the stupid one? Whatever.

Uh... yeah, that's exactly what Dalish culture is about.

If they are different from the ancient elves, it's not because they wish to be so but the fact that they lack the means to become any closer to Arlathan.

Merrill: I've never met a dwarf before.

Varric: That's because you spend too much time frolicking in the woods, Daisy. Dwarves don't frolic.

Merrill: Dalish don't really frolic, either. Not in the woods anyway.

Varric: You have sanctioned frolicking areas?

Merrill: No, just not in the woods. The trees get jealous.

Varric: But you do frolic?

Merrill: Of course we do! We wouldn't be elves, otherwise.

I'm not sure why she was trolling Varric like that. He meant no offense with his statement.

[Illegitimus]

If they are different from the ancient elves, it's not because they wish to be so but the fact that they lack the means to become any closer to Arlathan.


I'm not sure why she was trolling Varric like that. He meant no offense with his statement.

 

Because it was funny.  Varric's a guy who can appreciate a joke.  

[Qun00]

Because it was funny. Varric's a guy who can appreciate a joke.

If you've ever heard the delivery of the lines, Varric didn't sound amused. Not upset, but he certainly wasn't laughing.

https://youtu.be/F9sW3MW-MI0

And it was sarcasm, not a friendly joke. That "the trees get jealous" part is particularly telling. And no joking tone in her voice either.

[Artona]

I'm not sure what's your point, Qun00. Maybe Aveline is right, but she is so hard to like or even tolerate (at least for me), so I'm not surprised with Merril's reaction. As for banter with Varric - I never thought he could've taken offense.

But I would agree that Merril gets quite defensive, when talking about Dalish. However, almost every companion in DA2 is annoyingly twisted with some obssession.

[Qun00]

Just remembered another one.

Aveline: Are you all right, Merrill?

Merrill: I'm perfectly fine. Why?

Aveline: We're quite deep. I'm told dwarves don't do well when they first come to the surface. I wondered if elves felt similar underground.

Merrill: It's a ceiling. We have ceilings.

No, you don't. Why bother lying about this?

[Vanilka]

The Dalish have seen ceilings at least. Merrill was in the elven ruins at the beginning of Dalish Origin. Aravels have ceilings. She knows what ceilings are. She understands the concept. Dwarves have no idea what sky is and they don't get the concept until they get out. Some dwarves have never been outside whilst the Dalish can enter caves, buildings, etc. 

 

All that said, I think Aveline was just being thoughtful, even if it's the wrong kind of comparison. She was just trying to be nice.

 

I do think Merrill gets a bit defensive or passive aggressive sometimes. In my opinion, she's simply sensitive about the subject. I mean, she's fiercely protective of anything Dalish, but now she's completely alone to do it in a world that doesn't understand any of that. On the other hand, she also disagrees with the Keeper about what should be preserved and which kinds of magic are all right and which are not. Her interests seem to go deeper and darker than your average Dalish's (if there is anything like "your average Dalish"). I suspect that she simply dislikes constantly being questioned about what she does, what she is, what she thinks, etc. Her clan did it, the Keeper did it, now Hawke's squad do it. She never escapes doubt and criticism. If not that, then silly stereotypes about elves...

 

 

(Not cool, you know?)

 

I think that, much like Fenris is tired of everyone bringing up his markings and experiences, reducing him to just that in the process, Merrill is tired of everybody bringing up the Dalish stuff.

 

Now, don't take me wrong. I'm not saying I'm a fan of that behaviour.

[Qun00]

It's not a matter of knowledge. Dwarves also know what ceilings are and have them inside their houses, but that doesn't stop them from feeling uneasy when they go to the surface.

Aveline's point was that the Dalish might feel uncomfortable if they spend too much time in a closed space since they're more used to open areas.

[Vanilka]

It's not a matter of knowledge. Dwarves also know what ceilings are and have them inside their houses, but that doesn't stop them from feeling uneasy when they go to the surface.

Aveline's point was that the Dalish might feel uncomfortable if they spend too much time in a closed space since they're more used to open areas.

 
I will attempt to rephrase:
 
A dwarf is likely to have never seen the sky before they go outside. (That's not something most dwarves do. They can lose everything just by doing that.) It's something they don't experience until they leave underground. That's why sky might make them feel uncomfortable because it's a completely new concept. They also have a bunch of superstitions to go with it. For dwarves who spend their entire life underground, the sky is an abstract, unimaginable, scary thing. That's why some of them get all jumpy when they go outside. It has nothing to do with them knowing what a ceiling is. They know that very well. That's what brings them comfort. It's about them not knowing what the lack of it is. That's new and that's what makes them uncomfortable.
 
A Dalish is likely to be familiar with confined space of some sort. They don't have the same culture surrounding it. Merrill in particular has visited caves before, travelled inside of an aravel, and she even has a house in the alienage in which she lived for some time before Hawke took her into the Deep Roads. Confined spaces may be uncomfortable, but not completely unfamiliar.

 

That's why I think it's not exactly the same thing and that's why I kind of understand that Merrill gets weirded out by the question.

While I think confined space might definitely make some Dalish feel uncomfortable and Aveline's concern is perfectly understandable to me (I'd appreciate that sentiment myself, to be honest.), I also think it can't be compared with the experience of a dwarf that suddenly has a whole lot of nothing above their head which is something they never experienced before they left underground which used to be their whole world.

 

I hope I'm making some sense.

[dragonflight288]

There's a nice bit of dialogue between Merrill and Carver in Mark of the Assassin that I think sums up what Merrill does a lot in conversations. I think it shows that Merrill is kind of a troll who uses naivety as a tool. 

 

• Carver: Okay, we're lost together. Both of us, not that we're "together" together.
• Merrill: If we have to be lost somewhere, at least it's a nice hallway! Very well built, not at all likely to collapse.
• Carver: Right, well, back to rescuing... wait. You're doing that on purpose!
• Merrill: (Giggles)

[Ghost Gal]

I'm not sure why she was trolling Varric like that. He meant no offense with his statement.

 

Just because he meant no offense doesn't mean there was none taken. A pretty blithely slung stereotype deserves to get challenged.

 

Leliana also "meant no offense" when she tried to "compliment" an Elven Warden by talking about how "a well-trained elven servant is highly valued in Orlais" because "they are nimble and dexterous, and some find them pleasing to look at." Even if she didn't mean it maliciously, an Elven Warden has every right to call her out for her unintentionally dehumanizing attitude, and to make her think about what she said.

 

I personally think Merrill's response was masterfully handled. Varric casually slings a belittling stereotype (oh, elves frolic like tree-hugging sissies), and Merrill acts as though the stereotype is true, which shocks Varric and forces him to actually think about that stereotype. Maybe in the future he'll think twice before he casually throws it at other elves.

 

Just remembered another one.


No, you don't. Why bother lying about this?

 

a) Dalish do have ceilings. They often camp out in ruins, which have ceilings, and they have aravels, which have ceilings.

 

Aveline just made an unintentionally ignorant/stereotyping comment about the Dalish. She assumes that just because they live in wide open spaces means they must live under the sky 24/7 and therefore must be upset when introduced to this radical new invention called "ceilings," and Merrill sets the record straight.

 

b ) It's funny how when companions make ignorant, judgmental, and/or stereotyping comments to/about elves to Merrill your response is essentially, "God Merrill, don't be so sensitive," yet you yourself keep getting all butthurt on behalf of companions when Merrill pushes back. It's like, Merrill is supposed to passively accept non-Dalish companions making ignorant, judgmental, and/or stereotyping comments about her people, but she's not allowed to push back or (heaven forbid) challenge their perceptions.

[MisterJB]

Elves getting offended over nothing.

[Qun00]

Just because he meant no offense doesn't mean there was none taken. A pretty blithely slung stereotype deserves to get challenged.

Leliana also "meant no offense" when she tried to "compliment" an Elven Warden by talking about how "a well-trained elven servant is highly valued in Orlais" because "they are nimble and dexterous, and some find them pleasing to look at." Even if she didn't mean it maliciously, an Elven Warden has every right to call her out for her unintentionally dehumanizing attitude, and to make her think about what she said.

I personally think Merrill's response was masterfully handled. Varric casually slings a belittling stereotype (oh, elves frolic like tree-hugging sissies), and Merrill acts as though the stereotype is true, which shocks Varric and forces him to actually think about that stereotype. Maybe in the future he'll think twice before he casually throws it at other elves.


a) Dalish do have ceilings. They often camp out in ruins, which have ceilings, and they have aravels, which have ceilings.

Aveline just made an unintentionally ignorant/stereotyping comment about the Dalish. She assumes that just because they live in wide open spaces means they must live under the sky 24/7 and therefore must be upset when introduced to this radical new invention called "ceilings," and Merrill sets the record straight.

b ) It's funny how when companions make ignorant, judgmental, and/or stereotyping comments to/about elves to Merrill your response is essentially, "God Merrill, don't be so sensitive," yet you yourself keep getting all butthurt on behalf of companions when Merrill pushes back. It's like, Merrill is supposed to passively accept non-Dalish companions making ignorant, judgmental, and/or stereotyping comments about her people, but she's not allowed to push back or (heaven forbid) challenge their perceptions.

I will concede regarding Varric's example, as the way he put it can sound wrong. Now, moving on to Aveline, sorry, but the inside of a glorified tent/wagon is not a ceiling. And the Dalish occasionally set up camp near ruins, not inside.

Even if she were wrong, there was no reason to get one's small clothes in a twist.

Conversation between reasonable people:

A: It probably isn't easy for you to endure the heat in Auatralia since you're from Canada.

B: Actually, I live in one of the southern cities so this isn't a big deal.


See? Easy like stealing from a lyrium damaged templar. As for general emotions, well, only one of us felt like making it personal.

[dragonflight288]

Easy as stealing lyrium from a damaged Templar? That's quite difficult considering the addiction.

[Qun00]

Not lyrium. The coin purse in his pocket while he's daydreaming about flying nugs.

[TEWR]

eh, depending on when you do Legacy Merrill can have lived in a house of her own from anywhere up to 3 years to 7 years. That question is honestly kinda stupid, all things considered. Moreover, Dwarves are nervous about being under the open sky because they have a culture that makes it seem like it's a bad thing. That is to say, it's a societal attitude ingrained deep within the public consciousness.

 

Since when have we ever heard a Dalish say anything that implied or outright stated that they, as a culture, view ceilings and the like as being akin to how Dwarves view the open sky?

 

I can see why it'd be offensive. The thing is everyone except for Hawke treats Merrill like she's a child. Whether they're being douchebags about it (Anders, Fenris) or sweet about it (Isabela, Varric), everyone tries to treat her as if she needs to be looked out for. They don't see her as an adult and it's a very patronizing attitude, that really only Hawke potentially stands out in regards to.

 

And that's the thing about offensive statements. Only the person who is on the receiving end of such things can state whether it is or isn't, because they're the ones affected by it. A human might say something to an Elf or a Dwarf that they view as being harmless, but it could be steeped in harmful stereotypes.

[Qun00]

eh, depending on when you do Legacy Merrill can have lived in a house of her own from anywhere up to 3 years to 7 years. That question is honestly kinda stupid, all things considered. Moreover, Dwarves are nervous about being under the open sky because they have a culture that makes it seem like it's a bad thing. That is to say, it's a societal attitude ingrained deep within the public consciousness.

Since when have we ever heard a Dalish say anything that implied or outright stated that they, as a culture, view ceilings and the like as being akin to how Dwarves view the open sky?

I can see why it'd be offensive. The thing is everyone except for Hawke treats Merrill like she's a child. Whether they're being douchebags about it (Anders, Fenris) or sweet about it (Isabela, Varric), everyone tries to treat her as if she needs to be looked out for. They don't see her as an adult and it's a very patronizing attitude, that really only Hawke potentially stands out in regards to.

And that's the thing about offensive statements. Only the person who is on the receiving end of such things can state whether it is or isn't, because they're the ones affected by it. A human might say something to an Elf or a Dwarf that they view as being harmless, but it could be steeped in harmful stereotypes.

Aveline specifically asked about Dalish culture. But if Merril were to use your argument, it could be easily done this way: "I've lived in Kirkwall for a couple years. This is nothing new to me."

I would say it isn't just the companions that see Merril like a little puppy, but the fandom as a whole. Everything she says or does that could be perceived as negative is often dismissed with "Nah, that's just Merril being clueless, naive and adorable like always!"

Yes, it is true that the person who says it can be unaware of a bad choice of words, but the offended party isn't the sole authority on the matter by any means.

The latter is just as likely to be wrong about what really happened.

[RoseLawliet]

About Aveline asking her if she's fine underground, her verbal explanation might not have been the best, but the sentiment is perfectly legitimate. Anyone would be antsy in the Deep Roads. There is a lot of rock over your head. Nathaniel says as much in Awakening. Sigrun's comeback is much better than Merrill's. Rather than trying to have us believe a surface-dweller isn't feeling any claustrophobia, Sigrun points out that buildings can collapse on you, too.

[straykat]

I don't think Merrill is a troll at all. And she doesn't know much to begin with.. No Dalish do.. that's the whole point of them.. that sense of loss. At best, she's just hiding her ignorance.

[dragonflight288]

I don't think Merrill is a troll at all. And she doesn't know much to begin with.. No Dalish do.. that's the whole point of them.. that sense of loss. At best, she's just hiding her ignorance.

 

Culture clash at the beginning. Dalish know a great deal of history, more than the average peasant. They just let it dictate how they live their lives rather than learn and adapt to it and the present. 

 

If there's something about the state of Thedas it's in, I'd say it's actually in a post-apocalyptic state, where ancient Arlathan was the pinnacle of magical power and technology that was destroyed by Fen'Harel. 

 

They may get a bit of their own history wrong because of faulty information but elven history seems to be the key to the salvation of the world from Fen'Harel.

[straykat]

Culture clash at the beginning. Dalish know a great deal of history, more than the average peasant. They just let it dictate how they live their lives rather than learn and adapt to it and the present. 

 

If there's something about the state of Thedas it's in, I'd say it's actually in a post-apocalyptic state, where ancient Arlathan was the pinnacle of magical power and technology that was destroyed by Fen'Harel. 

 

They may get a bit of their own history wrong because of faulty information but elven history seems to be the key to the salvation of the world from Fen'Harel.

 

I agree they know more of their history than peasants. I just want to point out the sense of loss. And like you said, from their perspective, it's a bit like a post-apocalypse.

 

But I don't think the world in general is in a state of post apocalypse. The world moves forward. It moved forward long ago with Andraste. No one seems to have shaken up the world order more than she did. While the nations after her slowly shed old ideas.. they're not there yet, but they're progressing. Like Maric and Loghain's friendship or Celene and Briala. There's more blurring of lines with castes and nobility. And slowly more sciences cropping up as well. This is not apocalyptic.

 

I don't think the Dalish offer salvation though. At least, I'd prefer that wasn't the case. Maybe if you mean there's some magical element to their history that could be used, that'd be cool. But politically, they offer nothing. I think to stop Fen'Harel, one must have the mind of that "trailer" Inquisitor, where he says "All of this happened because of fanatics and arguments about the next world. It's time we start caring about this one." Fen'Harel would have less elven followers, if this true. He wouldn't get any followers if they were happy in the world they lived in.

[dragonflight288]

I agree they know more of their history than peasants. I just want to point out the sense of loss. And like you said, from their perspective, it's a bit like a post-apocalypse.

 

But I don't think the world in general is in a state of post apocalypse. The world moves forward. It moved forward long ago with Andraste. No one seems to have shaken up the world order more than she did. While the nations after her slowly shed old ideas.. they're not there yet, but they're progressing. Like Maric and Loghain's friendship or Celene and Briala. There's more blurring of lines with castes and nobility. And slowly more sciences cropping up as well. This is not apocalyptic.

 

I don't think the Dalish offer salvation though. At least, I'd prefer that wasn't the case. Maybe if you mean there's some magical element to their history that could be used, that'd be cool. But politically, they offer nothing. I think to stop Fen'Harel, one must have the mind of that "trailer" Inquisitor, where he says "All of this happened because of fanatics and arguments about the next world. It's time we start caring about this one." Fen'Harel would have less elven followers, if this true. He wouldn't get any followers if they were happy in the world they lived in.

 

You're right. The world moves on. I was simply trying to paint a picture from the Dalish perspective.

 

As for stopping Fen'Harel, I truly think DA4 will have us going through some of the elven lore and culture Tevinter adopted after enslaving the elves for bits, scraps and leads to find a way to counter him. 

 

And yes, he wouldn't have followers if people were happy. Neither would the Qun. One thing that can be said on behalf of the Qunari, they are the least racist society in Thedas in that everyone is given a role and race barely matters, save for perhaps Ben'Hassrath spies.

 

Not saying I like the Qunari society. It's pretty much a given that life sucks for elves no matter where they go in Thedas.

 

I simply think that in order to save the world as it has become we are going to need to know and understand the true elven history and lore, and possibly even their ancient magics. 

[straykat]

You're right. The world moves on. I was simply trying to paint a picture from the Dalish perspective.

 

As for stopping Fen'Harel, I truly think DA4 will have us going through some of the elven lore and culture Tevinter adopted after enslaving the elves for bits, scraps and leads to find a way to counter him. 

 

And yes, he wouldn't have followers if people were happy. Neither would the Qun. One thing that can be said on behalf of the Qunari, they are the least racist society in Thedas in that everyone is given a role and race barely matters, save for perhaps Ben'Hassrath spies.

 

Not saying I like the Qunari society. It's pretty much a given that life sucks for elves no matter where they go in Thedas.

 

I simply think that in order to save the world as it has become we are going to need to know and understand the true elven history and lore, and possibly even their ancient magics. 

 

Yeah, but the Qun traded one form of categorization for another. They still diminish the idea of the individual.

[dragonflight288]

Yeah, but the Qun traded one form of categorization for another. They still diminish the idea of the individual.

 

No denying that. Many people, and many elves, however, would find that attractive because they aren't judged based solely on their ears as they are everywhere else. 

 

Like those converts who join the qun in Kirkwall because the Kirkwall guardsman raped their sister and they couldn't get justice, which is a mark against Aveline, or Seamus who loved the idea of certainty and a life where you don't second-guess the decisions you make.

[straykat]

No denying that. Many people, and many elves, however, would find that attractive because they aren't judged based solely on their ears as they are everywhere else. 

 

Like those converts who join the qun in Kirkwall because the Kirkwall guardsman raped their sister and they couldn't get justice, which is a mark against Aveline, or Seamus who loved the idea of certainty and a life where you don't second-guess the decisions you make.

 

Ear insults could definitely change, but.... I find it depressing that elves would turn to a structure like that.. when they have freer options elsewhere.

 

If these games really took into account everything, those elves could have found a safe harbor in Hawke and Aveline.. but the game railroaded the Arishok as the only one with a mind for justice. Which is wrong. We can do the same things the Arishok does.. like defying the magistrate and killing Kelder.. while Aveline employs the girl later. Hawke took justice in their own hands, just like those elves. Both Hawke and Arishok represent new world orders, but these elves just looked in one direction. And for whatever reason, Aveline never mentioned them until it was too late. Which annoys me too.

 

Seamus is just a hipster. I don't think he has a thoughtful bone in his body.

[dragonflight288]

I don't think elves have freer options elsewhere. Human prejudice against them insurse it. In the codex and entries it says for city elves that more often, when they leave the alienage and start a business or whatever, it is not long before racist humans destroy it and drive them back to the alienage.

Just heard a conversation in Inquisition where a guy was shocked a dwarf worked with "them." When the dwarf tries to clarify what them is, it was all elves.

 

Went back to them and the human is saying you can't trust any elves, the dwarf says history says the opposite is true and the human says that the dwarf can't know anything of human and elven history since he's a dwarf. 

 

Was an interesting conversation that really showcased cultural views while also being funny in how willfully ignorant the human was being.