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[Gervaise]

When discussing with Cassandra whether she or Leliana should be Divine, Cassandra says that Leliana does not truly maintain the legacy of Justinia and implies that Leliana's is being selective in what she remembers of Justinia's aims.   I've read in other posts how Leliana is pursuing her own agenda regardless of Chantry traditions, but if this is so, then to my mind she is only continuing what Justinia began and it is Cassandra that is ignoring what Justinia was doing, or perhaps was unaware, in the years leading up to her death.

 

To start with there is the desire to give the mages more freedoms and the desire to remove the need for the Rite of Tranquility.   Justinia sponsored Pharamond's research and was colluding with Wynne in Asunder.    Then, as Lambert realises, she also colludes in Leliana helping the First Enchanters to escape the White Spire.    Everything points to her supporting greater mage freedoms despite both the actions of Anders in Kirkwall and the attempt on her own life.   Whilst she might have made the reforms slower than occur under Leliana, more in keeping with what Wynne was originally working towards, once Fiona enflames the situation by calling for another vote of independence, Justinia clearly comes down on the side of the mages.

 

Then there is the restoration of the Canticle of Shartan.   The game seems to suggest this is something that is done by Leliana after the events of Trespasser, to a huge amount of hostility.    Yet World of Thedas 2 has the New Cumberland Chant of Light that was commissioned by Justinia and published in 9:38.    This contains the Dissonant Verses, not only the Canticle of Shartan but also the restoration of the Canticle of Silence that is attributed to Hessarian and was removed by Divine Amara as political propaganda rather than sacred verse.    So Leliana has just maintained the stance of her predecessor.    If there are attempts on her life due to the hostility over the restoration of the Canticle of Shartan, then presumably this could also account for why nobles/Templars conspired to allow the mage into the ball to make the attempt on the life of Justinia.     She had only been in her office 4 years when she published the new version of the Chant.

 

Finally, there is the Inquisition itself.   The authorisation that Cassandra and Leliana use was given by Justinia.   In fact Cassandra claims they were sent to seek out Hawke to be the leader of the Inquisition.   Clearly Justinia would not have anticipated the events of the Conclave, or you'd think their security would have been much better.   She had called this peace conference but I wonder if she had not already decided what the result should be and the Inquisition was going to be her means of enforcing it.    Certainly Giselle's idea that the name was chosen by Justinia to indicate it was only to be a temporary organisation seems unlikely.    May be Justinia didn't envisage it growing as large as it does but what it becomes if you do not disband it, her own private army.   Unlike the Templars, who served the Chantry before but did have an element of autonomy, the Inquisition would be wholly under her control.

 

So what Leliana does as Divine, particularly a hardened Leliana, seems entirely in keeping with the aims of Justinia.

[Big I]

Leliana knew her best, since she knew her before she became Divine. They had a shared history of both being victims of Marjolane's machinations. By the time Justinia died Leliana had known her for 12-13 years (depending on when Leliana's Song falls in the timeline). I can't recall if Justina was raised in 9:34 or 9:37 (I think 9:34), but that means that Cassandra only knew her for either 4-5 or 6-7 years. It's also likely that as her spymaster Leliana had a better understanding of what Justinia wanted, because Leliana was aware of the shady things Justinia was doing that Cassandra was not.

 

The only thing that might indicate Justinia was a moderate reformer was in the novel the Masked Empire by Patrick Weekes. In it Leliana meets with Celene, and Celene asks for Chantry intervention in fighting the oppression of the elves. Leliana tells her they can't do that because they're already focused on problems with the mages. Some might interpret that to mean that Justinia only favoured reform in some areas, or reform done slowly, but I don't believe that to be the case.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I agree with this. Leliana is definitely more likely to know Justinia than Cass considering the history the two had since Leliana's Song

[robertmarilyn]

I'm in agreement that Leliana knew Justinia best and for the most part, I think Justinia would let her know most things but at the same time, I do think that once things get into the less "honorable" side of things, that Justinia would have kept secrets from Leliana too. 

 

Cass though, would only be privy to the more honorable side of Justinia. It's hard for me to even imagine Cass as Divine because I'm not sure how well she would handle the behind the scenes shadiness of the politics of being Divine. For better or worse, Leliana is made for that type of position and Viv would love the position (not that she'll ever get it in my games)  . 

 

I've only had softened Leliana as Divine, in all of my games (I'm not stuck in a rut am I),     so I haven't really paid much attention to the ending slides concerning Cass as Divine. 

[Gervaise]

On the whole she seems to make a good job of it and certainly doesn't upset as many people as both Leliana and Vivienne do.    By the end of Trespasser Cassandra refuses to even work with Vivienne, whereas she will continue to respect and work with Leliana despite their differences.

 

The main problem with Cassandra as Divine it that I think she is miserable in the job because it is mostly politics and she is very much a lady of action.   Which is why she keeps taking time out in the Hunterhorn Mountains to work with her new Seekers.    So things may be more settled with Cassandra at the top but I agree that Leliana seems far better cut out for the job, particularly if you want there to be radical changes.   It probably would have been more of a foregone conclusion to get Leliana if most of Justinia's supporters in the hierarchy hadn't died at the Conclave.    After all, Justinia got voted in only a six years before, so most of the Grand Clerics who voted her in would still have been in office.   Then when they got wiped out on mass, new appointments had to be made and likely more of the small town conservatives or stooges of the nobility rose to power.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I would say Leliana knew her better what doesn't mean much as Leliana was still foolish tool to Justinia and she even admited she used her. In the end i wouldn't see following Justinia as something positive as Justinia was fool that had no idea what she was doing in the end her actions lead to war and she wasn't able to fix her mess , Leliana is following Justinia values what makes her fool like Justinia if not bigger one as Justinia at least had some brakes and knew she shouldn't push her luck.

[Wulfram]

I think the Canticle of Shartan was included by Justinia as a dissonant verse, interesting and worthy of study but not part of the actual canon. Whereas Leliana fully reinstated it.

I do think Justinia's aims are similar to Leliana's, but I think she was more concerned to create some sort of consensus before making changes.

[Gervaise]

Just making the Canticle public knowledge in a book approved by the Divine was a radical step.   Previously it was considered heresy to even mention Shartan and Sister Petrine's writing on Glandivalis was heavily censored.  Of course Celene had been encouraging scholars to be more open and this may have encouraged Justinia to proceed in this way.   It is clear though that Justinia was making waves well before the events of 9:40 which is why she asked Leliana to be her left hand because she needed someone who would carry through her more controversial decisions by fair means or foul.   She may well have been going too far in her reforms and taking advantage of Leliana but the latter was right in saying that she was continuing what Justinia started. 

[Heimdall]

Just making the Canticle public knowledge in a book approved by the Divine was a radical step. Previously it was considered heresy to even mention Shartan and Sister Petrine's writing on Glandivalis was heavily censored. Of course Celene had been encouraging scholars to be more open and this may have encouraged Justinia to proceed in this way. It is clear though that Justinia was making waves well before the events of 9:40 which is why she asked Leliana to be her left hand because she needed someone who would carry through her more controversial decisions by fair means or foul. She may well have been going too far in her reforms and taking advantage of Leliana but the latter was right in saying that she was continuing what Justinia started.

She made waves, but my impression is that she was very careful about how she did it so as to minimalize destabilizing backlash. I believe that was what Cassandra was referring to when she said Leliana's memory of Justinia was selective.

[AntiChri5]

They are both right and both wrong. Both selectively remembering the facets of Justinia they each individually knew and liked best. Neither can make any greater claim to honouring her legacy then the other.

[Big I]

I would say Leliana knew her better what doesn't mean much as Leliana was still foolish tool to Justinia and she even admited she used her. In the end i wouldn't see following Justinia as something positive as Justinia was fool that had no idea what she was doing in the end her actions lead to war and she wasn't able to fix her mess , Leliana is following Justinia values what makes her fool like Justinia if not bigger one as Justinia at least had some brakes and knew she shouldn't push her luck.

 

I liked Justinia's reforms, and I like Leliana's even more. For one thing I think it outrageous that the Canticles of Shartan and Silence were made dissonant for political reasons. Hessarian (who wrote Silence) converted the entire Imperium to the Chant, and is considered Exalted (basically a saint) by both chantries. Shartan was one of Andraste's disciples FFS. But the chantry decided to obscure the truth of their own religion because they don't like elves or Tevinters? Utter BS. And why, apart from racism, shouldn't non-humans be able to become clergy?

[Nefla]

You mean Justinia wasn't just a generic peaceful nun who did nothing?

[TheKomandorShepard]

I liked Justinia's reforms, and I like Leliana's even more. For one thing I think it outrageous that the Canticles of Shartan and Silence were made dissonant for political reasons. Hessarian (who wrote Silence) converted the entire Imperium to the Chant, and is considered Exalted (basically a saint) by both chantries. Shartan was one of Andraste's disciples FFS. But the chantry decided to obscure the truth of their own religion because they don't like elves or Tevinters? Utter BS. And why, apart from racism, shouldn't non-humans be able to become clergy?

Leliana reforms are insane and are bound to cause havock pretty much most visible in her circle reforms.Now question why non-humans should be able to become clergy. To my knowledge religion (including those in our worlds) has own set of rules who and what can't do something, pretty much as far i know people don't want non-humans among clergy.

[Gervaise]

The admission of all races to the ranks of clergy seems to me to be only logical.   Elves have been living in the cities and worshipping the Maker for at least 700 years and yet they are still meant to be further from the Maker's light?   That doesn't speak very highly of the Chantry's ability to promote the Maker's teaching.   In fact I am sure there were still elves in the Dales who worshipped the Maker and were victimised for it by the ruling class who for some reason decided to focus on their old gods who hadn't responded to their prays for something like 2800 years instead of the god who had helped them to freedom.

 

Brother Burkel was a dwarf in Origins who wanted to establish a Chantry in Orzammar and if he is killed in the epilogue then the then Divine considers having an Exalted March over it (no doubt dissuaded by the lyrium trade).   Still if a dwarf convert is worth going to war over, then why shouldn't it be possible for him to attain the highest levels of the Chantry?   May be more dwarves might consider adopting the faith if they didn't see it as prejudiced against them for being dwarves.   (I will admit that their inability to enter the Fade in dreams might work against them since the ability to do so was a gift of the Maker)

 

Vashoth have either abandoned the Qun or never even lived under it.   If they follow the Chant then why aren't they worthy of advancement?

 

It is a bit like the current Imperial Chantry that only allows mages to attain the higher ranks because that fits with the status quo in temporal society.    When Hessarian first adopted the faith Soporati were permitted into the clergy just as Soporati were able to hold seats in the Magisterium.   Then after his death the Altus gradually took over again at the top in all aspects of life, even if initially this had to be done behind the scenes, until the final break with the south.

 

The problem with the Chantry in the past is that living the faith has never been considered that important, only professing to believe in the Maker.   Andraste's word has been interpreted as applying only to humans because that was politically convenient to keep the nobility at the head of affairs.     What Leliana is doing is actually in the spirit of the teaching contained in the Chant.   People object because they largely only give lip service to what they claim to believe.

[TheKomandorShepard]

The admission of all races to the ranks of clergy seems to me to be only logical.   Elves have been living in the cities and worshipping the Maker for at least 700 years and yet they are still meant to be further from the Maker's light?   That doesn't speak very highly of the Chantry's ability to promote the Maker's teaching.   In fact I am sure there were still elves in the Dales who worshipped the Maker and were victimised for it by the ruling class who for some reason decided to focus on their old gods who hadn't responded to their prays for something like 2800 years instead of the god who had helped them to freedom.

 

Brother Burkel was a dwarf in Origins who wanted to establish a Chantry in Orzammar and if he is killed in the epilogue then the then Divine considers having an Exalted March over it (no doubt dissuaded by the lyrium trade).   Still if a dwarf convert is worth going to war over, then why shouldn't it be possible for him to attain the highest levels of the Chantry?   May be more dwarves might consider adopting the faith if they didn't see it as prejudiced against them for being dwarves.   (I will admit that their inability to enter the Fade in dreams might work against them since the ability to do so was a gift of the Maker)

 

Vashoth have either abandoned the Qun or never even lived under it.   If they follow the Chant then why aren't they worthy of advancement?

 

It is a bit like the current Imperial Chantry that only allows mages to attain the higher ranks because that fits with the status quo in temporal society.    When Hessarian first adopted the faith Soporati were permitted into the clergy just as Soporati were able to hold seats in the Magisterium.   Then after his death the Altus gradually took over again at the top in all aspects of life, even if initially this had to be done behind the scenes, until the final break with the south.

 

The problem with the Chantry in the past is that living the faith has never been considered that important, only professing to believe in the Maker.   Andraste's word has been interpreted as applying only to humans because that was politically convenient to keep the nobility at the head of affairs.     What Leliana is doing is actually in the spirit of the teaching contained in the Chant.   People object because they largely only give lip service to what they claim to believe.

 

Maybe people don't want non-humans in the chantry, you didn't think if they wanted them they would allow them?

 

Epilogues are just a rumors and most of them were rejected , hell even stance that non-humans can join chantry but it doesn't happen often due to racism is retconned in Inquistion and changed into Non-humans can't join chantry at all.

 

Leliana isn't in touch to that what is in the chant, leliana is in touch with her personal faith (that many people in the chantry disagree with) not institutional faith that is spread by the chantry.

[The Baconer]

Maybe people don't want non-humans in the chantry, you didn't think if they wanted them they would allow them?

 

I think the opinions of people who don't want non-humans in the Chantry can be ignored. Maybe not "safely ignored", as they are bound to cause a ruckus, but if they need to be smacked around then so be it. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

I think the opinions of people who don't want non-humans in the Chantry can be ignored. Maybe not "safely ignored", as they are bound to cause a ruckus, but if they need to be smacked around then so be it. 

And how do you know how many people don't want non-humans in the chantry maybe majority of clergy or faithful don't want them to be members of the chantry.So basically you would be ignoring institutional rules of that are favored by majority members of that institution in favor of desires minority.If Leliana doesn't like how chantry works and its relgion rules operate maybe she should establish her own religion?

[The Baconer]

And how do you know how many people don't want non-humans in the chantry maybe majority of clergy or faithful don't want them to be members of the chantry.So basically you would be ignoring institutional rules of that are favored by majority members of that institution in favor of desires minority.

 

Yes, I don't care about what they think. The Maker itself doesn't care about what anyone thinks so there's really no dilemma. 

 

 

If Leliana doesn't like how chantry works and its relgion rules operate maybe she should establish her own religion?

 

The clergy (the leading representatives of said majority members) elected her. They made their beds. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yes, I don't care about what they think. The Maker itself doesn't care about what anyone thinks so there's really no dilemma. 

 

 

The clergy (the leading representatives of said majority members) elected her. They made their beds. 

Well , your opinion doesn't count here as you aren't member of religion.There is no dilemma, it was just to point Leliana is just foolish self-righteous woman that not only has no idea what she is doing but also destabilizes institution and its rules because of her personal desires.

 

The clergy elected also Justinia doesn't mean they wanted her reforms because pretty much they didn't.

[The Baconer]

Well , your opinion doesn't count here as you aren't member of religion.

 

My opinion (the player character's opinion) matters more than anyone else's, since it ultimately decides the leader of their religion. 

 

 

The clergy elected also Justinia doesn't mean they wanted her reforms because pretty much they didn't.

 

They have no one to blame but themselves. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

My opinion (the player character's opinion) matters more than anyone else's, since it ultimately decides the leader of their religion. 

 

 

 

They have no one to blame but themselves. 

 

Not rly, your opinion don't even decides who is leader only your actions in game do, but who decides who will be divine is irrelevant because that wasn't the point , point is that Leliana reforms may be unwanted by institution.

 

They have someone to blame and name of that person is Leliana, pretty sure once mages will start turn into abomnations and attempt blow up world or will blow up some city blame will swing on her (though her mary sue and writers pet status may save her from that).

[The Baconer]

Not rly, your opinion don't even decides who is leader only your actions in game do, but who decides who will be divine is irrelevant because that wasn't the point , point is that Leliana reforms may be unwanted by institution.

 

The PC's actions in game will reflect their own personal opinions regarding social issues and traditions, the grand clerics will choose their candidate in accordance with that. 

 

Whether or not Leliana's reforms are wanted by a majority isn't relevant. If the requests to bar non-humans from the church were worth consideration, then it would matter. But they aren't, so it doesn't. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

The PC's actions in game will reflect their own personal opinions regarding social issues and traditions, the grand clerics will choose their candidate in accordance with that. 

 

Whether or not Leliana's reforms are wanted by a majority isn't relevant. If the requests to bar non-humans from the church were worth consideration, then it would matter. But they aren't, so it doesn't. 

 

Not rly , you can get Leliana as divine despite not supporting her reforms and you can end with Viviene as divine despite not supporting her leadership style, pretty much you may not support candidate and person still may end as divine .

 

Same can be said about Leliana if her desires aren't worth of consideration so her desires doesn't matter, as i said if Leliana doesn't like chantry values and rules then simply she shouldn't join it and just create her own religion.

[Gervaise]

Let's face it the decision over who is to be Divine is peculiar all round.   None of the candidates was originally part of the clergy.   You can accept they might want to put up one non clergy person but three?   The choices are one of the previous Divine's two enforcers, so it is likely they are going to pursue her agenda to a greater or lesser extent, which they do; Cassandra may not be as radical as Leliana but she does make changes.   The third choice is a mage.   I have to admit to being gobsmacked when she ended up being Divine on one of my play throughs.    I really don't care how well versed she was with the Game and promoting herself with the nobility; she is a mage.   That conflicts with everything the southern Chantry have ever stood for.   Dorian summed it up perfectly; it is Tevinter without the blood magic.   So clearly whatever clergy survived the Conclave are idiots, insane or both   Frankly after that came up I really couldn't take the game seriously any more

 

Incidentally the choices to irrevocably get Vivienne would seem to be Conscript the Mages, Reconcile Celene and Briala, Enlist the Wardens and don't tell anyone you support them.    In fact I even went back and voted for Cassandra and still got Vivienne, which is how I know it seems to be unavoidable.   I'm still scratching my head over the logic for the clergy's decision.

[AntiChri5]

Let's face it the decision over who is to be Divine is peculiar all round.   None of the candidates was originally part of the clergy.   You can accept they might want to put up one non clergy person but three?   The choices are one of the previous Divine's two enforcers, so it is likely they are going to pursue her agenda to a greater or lesser extent, which they do; Cassandra may not be as radical as Leliana but she does make changes.   The third choice is a mage.   I have to admit to being gobsmacked when she ended up being Divine on one of my play throughs.    I really don't care how well versed she was with the Game and promoting herself with the nobility; she is a mage.   That conflicts with everything the southern Chantry have ever stood for.   Dorian summed it up perfectly; it is Tevinter without the blood magic.   So clearly whatever clergy survived the Conclave are idiots, insane or both   Frankly after that came up I really couldn't take the game seriously any more

 

Incidentally the choices to irrevocably get Vivienne would seem to be Conscript the Mages, Reconcile Celene and Briala, Enlist the Wardens and don't tell anyone you support them.    In fact I even went back and voted for Cassandra and still got Vivienne, which is how I know it seems to be unavoidable.   I'm still scratching my head over the logic for the clergy's decision.

Every important member of the clergy literally died in an explosion. The game is not shy about establishing this. Every traditional choice is dead. Which is why Vivienne is able to succeed. Of all candidates, she is the only one championing traditional views.