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[Gervaise]

Not every important member died.   There are people who are constantly referred to in the War Table missions.    There is Mother Giselle and that woman in Val Royeaux who the Templar punched.    There is also the cleric who gets sister Natalie to spy on you.    So there are quite a few middle ranking clergy around that could have been selected from.    Instead they go with a mage.   It doesn't really matter that she is a loyalist mage, she is still a mage.    Plus as the epilogue points out, she does make changes that give mages far more power, even if she is the one ultimately in charge.    That is exactly what happened with the Imperial Chantry.     Even if, as Vivienne maintains, it has always been possible for responsible mages to be allowed out of the Circles on the say so of the First Enchanter, it has been a specific rule in southern Thedas that mages should neither rule, nor unduly influence those in power.     That is why Connor could not inherit his father's title.    Making one of the most powerful rulers in southern Thedas a mage goes against everything that the Chantry has stood against since Drakon's time.   You could argue that precedent was set with the Inquisitor as a mage but those were exceptional circumstances and in any case the Chantry originally opposed the Inquisition and denounced them as heretics.    Still the Inquisitor was a secular ruler, the Divine is head of the faith, a religion that says that mages should not rule.    So voting Vivienne as Divine is very odd indeed.

[AntiChri5]

An interesting point, when I made my devout Andrastian mage a Knight-Enchanter Vivienne asked if he was inspired to follow that path by the Knight-Enchanter's who sometimes serve as honour guards for the Divine and high ranking clergy. Even in Orlais, the Chantry isn't so dogmatically anti-mage.

 

Yeah, every important member died. Mother Giselle is the Chantry equivalent of a forest hobo. She becomes important in Inquisition because a ) everyone important is dead and b ) she backs the right horse, throwing her lot in with the Inquisition right off the bat. The cleric in VR had so little influence she got punched in the face in public and then just sat there whining about how little she could do. Sister Natalie's patron is dealt with by Leliana almost instantly, she clearly can't have much influence. Yeah, a bunch pop up in WT missions. But the WT missions usually go out of their way to point out how inconsequential they are.

 

The Chantry in Inquisition just presided over the greatest failure in it's history. They completely and totally lost control in spectacular fashion and the very thing they were supposed to be the guardian against publicly bent them over a barrel. And then a new organisation rises up and the Chantry, in it's fearful humiliation, publicly condemns them as herecits.

 

And then this new organisation publicly saves the world.

 

At this point, either the Chantry starts frantically tonguing Inquisition butt or it will at best experience a serious schism and at worst fall completely. So they decide to try pulling their new leader from the Inquisition since they don't have anyone worth more then half a fart left. But then they realize, oh crap the only traditionalist candidate in the Inquisition is a mage.

 

The Chantry has no choice but to abandon some of it's principles. They wound up in a situation where putting a mage on the Sunburst throne was the most traditionalist choice.

[sim-ran]

Oh come on, a traditionalist would realisticallt choose Cassandra over Vivienne any day of the week. When they say she's a "reformer" it's mainly only in the sense that she wants to get the systems that broke working again, in the way they were originally intended to no less. And she's devout. And she's NOT a mage!

[Gervaise]

Plus it ends up the Inquisition has no teeth at all when Orlais and Ferelden unite against it; so much for schism.     The ordinary people will still be fearful of mages.   There have been Venatori running around the place doing all manner of evil.    The mage rebellion signed up with Tevinter until the Inquisitor either stepped in or left them to their fate.   I was rather surprised that after saving the world, the ordinary people would have been clamouring to keep the Inquisition but clearly they have no say in the matter.   However, the nobility would have been worried about putting a mage in charge; surely that would give ideas to those families who have mages in them?    The prohibition against mages in control goes right back to the foundation of the Chantry.    The Knight Enchanter does not break this tradition, since they are serving the Divine, not the Divine herself.     She tells them what to do and they protect her.     Although clearly there could not have been many around in Justinia's reign considering how badly she was guarded both at the ball in Val Royeaux and at the Conclave.    

 

The break with the Imperial Chantry was over exactly that piece of dogma; that mages should not rule.    You may as well throw away any semblance of pretence over what the southern Chantry have claimed to be divine teaching throughout their history and admit that they just make it up as they go along.  

[Iakus]

They are both right and both wrong. Both selectively remembering the facets of Justinia they each individually knew and liked best. Neither can make any greater claim to honouring her legacy then the other.

This.

 

Justinia is admired by both of them, but for different reasons.  They both see her through rose-colored lenses.

[thesuperdarkone2]

This.

 

Justinia is admired by both of them, but for different reasons.  They both see her through rose-colored lenses.

Considering Leliana was Justinia's pet assassin and thus knew all the underhanded things she had to do for her reforms while Cass only saw her public face and not any behind the scenes stuff, I'd say Leliana has a better idea considering Leliana knew her from the start plus all the things Leliana had to do as Sister Nightingale

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Lambert!

[Milan92]

Does it really matter who remembered her best? I didn't know this was some sort of competition.

[sylvanaerie]

I'm in agreement that Leliana knew Justinia best and for the most part, I think Justinia would let her know most things but at the same time, I do think that once things get into the less "honorable" side of things, that Justinia would have kept secrets from Leliana too. 

 

Cass though, would only be privy to the more honorable side of Justinia. It's hard for me to even imagine Cass as Divine because I'm not sure how well she would handle the behind the scenes shadiness of the politics of being Divine. For better or worse, Leliana is made for that type of position and Viv would love the position (not that she'll ever get it in my games)  . 

 

I've only had softened Leliana as Divine, in all of my games (I'm not stuck in a rut am I),     so I haven't really paid much attention to the ending slides concerning Cass as Divine. 

 

I've had both ruthless and softened Leliana in the Divine position in two of my games so far.  Pretty much both do reforms but ruthless Leliana is less diplomatic, taking the 'iron fist in the velvet glove' approach to her politics and there's a lot more bloodshed in her name.

[Korva]

Let's face it the decision over who is to be Divine is peculiar all round..

To say the least. If memory serves, someone -- David Gaider? -- even admitted that the candidates were picked purely for drama reasons and not in-world logic. (It's not the only such case, either.)

 

Yeah, every important member died.

 

The clerics who died were the ones who had Justinia's favor as her potential successors. Which probably means a lot of "progressive" clerics died there, which in turn makes it logical that many of the surviving ones would make it harder for whoever becomes Divine to implement reforms, unless the Inquisition and the new Divine manage to win over minds and hearts post-Conclave, as you can do by having Leliana spare Natalie in her quest. (The complete lack of direct interaction with various branches of Chantry people and the lack of opportunities for theologial debate were actually among my biggest disappointments with the story.)

 

Mother Giselle is the Chantry equivalent of a forest hobo.

 

If a forest hobo had the respect and confidance of the late Divine, maybe. Mother Giselle very much struck me as someone who could have had more rank and influence than she does, but instead chose to do grassroots work where it is most needed and is happy that way. That's part of why I like her, and also the reason why she survived while Justinia's more politically-minded allies died at the Conclave.

[SonnyKohler]

I am SO impressed with this post!  Bravo!

 

This gives me a whole new perspective on the whole "Divine" situation that I hadn't even considered and seriously makes me rethink my stance of supporting Vivienne or Cassandra as Divine on all my prior playthroughs as I considered Lilliana too radical.

 

Wow!  Thank you!

 

That does it.  Tonight a female elven mage inquisitor and Lilliana.  I am truly, truly inspired.

 

Thank you!

[SonnyKohler]

@

TheKomandorShepard

Has REALLY, REALLY made me side with Lilliana.  Even playing a human, I can't imagine such a narrow minded, bigotted and xenophobic attitude towards my fellow dwellers on this plain of existence.  If anything, it would make me angry and resentful of them (as, I suppose, my current Dalish Lady could well be anyhow).

 

I realize you're not supposed to have your own real-world personal ethics bleed over in to a game, but, sorry, I can't help it.

[SonnyKohler]

Not rly , you can get Leliana as divine despite not supporting her reforms and you can end with Viviene as divine despite not supporting her leadership style, pretty much you may not support candidate and person still may end as divine .

 

Same can be said about Leliana if her desires aren't worth of consideration so her desires doesn't matter, as i said if Leliana doesn't like chantry values and rules then simply she shouldn't join it and just create her own religion.

Is it not made very clear in the game that the opinion of the Inquisitor is truly very important and a deciding factor in the election of the new Divine?  I wouldn't think that the current, low-level clergy that is in charge of the Chantry at that point would risk antagonizing the Inquisition.

[TheKomandorShepard]

@

TheKomandorShepard

Has REALLY, REALLY made me side with Lilliana.  Even playing a human, I can't imagine such a narrow minded, bigotted and xenophobic attitude towards my fellow dwellers on this plain of existence.  If anything, it would make me angry and resentful of them (as, I suppose, my current Dalish Lady could well be anyhow).

 

I realize you're not supposed to have your own real-world personal ethics bleed over in to a game, but, sorry, I can't help it.

 

LoL , who said i was bigoted toward elves and dwarves i just simply don't care about such things as race same thing in real life.Clearly chantry and it members do care and this was their decision to prohibit certain group when it comes membership ,it is their organisation and they decide who they want in it or not.

[AnimalBoy]

Besides being pro mage freedom myself i always make Leliana divine because i feel that if allowed, Justinia would have chosen her anyway.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Is it not made very clear in the game that the opinion of the Inquisitor is truly very important and a deciding factor in the election of the new Divine?  I wouldn't think that the current, low-level clergy that is in charge of the Chantry at that point would risk antagonizing the Inquisition.

Yes, Vivienne outright says that people are looking for a sign from the Maker and that your actions will be seen as a sign from the Maker by the people of Thedas and thus they'll make choices accordingly, during her "Divine Support" election.

 

Ergo, if you are pro-mage people will start to think that the Maker supports mage freedom and thus they'll be more accepting of freedom for mages. Thus, it's not really a surprise Leliana gets elected if people think the Maker supports mage freedom and equality for all races.

 

If they don't like what Leliana does, that's their fault for electing her in the first place, plus it's not like Leliana was hiding what she'd do as divine.