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[dantares83]

Solas said they (the elven gods) will never die and the Inquisitor has in fact met her (as Flemeth) but yet he said they killed her?

 

so is she dead or not?

[Abyss108]

He didn't say the Elvhen Gods can't die, just that they don't die easily.

[Shechinah]

Here is how I more or less understand it: Basically, the Mythal in Flemeth is the spirit of Mythal and what Solas talks about was the murder of Mythal's body. It may be that the Mythal in Flemeth is only a bit of the original Mythal.

[Arshei]

How you know Flemeth is the true Mythal?

[CardButton]

Here is how I more or less understand it: Basically, the Mythal in Flemeth is the spirit of Mythal and what Solas talks about was the murder of Mythal's body. It may be that the Mythal in Flemeth is only a bit of the original Mythal.

Yup thats what I gathered to.  The Mythal we get to deal with is like a Fragment of the orignal (though I don't know how big a fragment).  Her body is dead, but parts of her remain. 

[Artona]

I hope so. In DA games death from hands of npcs seems more permanent, than because of players action.

[Dai Grepher]

Mythal was in the Well of Sorrows. She rises out of it as Corypheus approaches the eluvian, then she escapes through the eluvian.

[Gervaise]

She also says to Hawke on Sundermount that "bodies are such limiting things" when surprise is expressed how she could be in the amulet and confirms it was just a piece as a contingency should the Warden have killed her.   Presumably if this didn't happen she simply jumps from her current location into the piece on the altar when Merrill recites the ritual.     Clearly something of her remained in the Well and had enough power to confront Corypheus and then jump through the eluvian, destroying it in the process.   Before the encounter with Solas, Flemeth seems to send something through the eluvian, which could be another piece of her in anticipation of what would follow.    When Kieran uses the eluvian it takes him into the Fade, where Flemeth/Mythal appears to have an area under her control and yet we had previously been told that you needed the anchor to enter and remain in the Fade.   

 

So whatever Mythal was/is she does not seem bound by the normal laws of existence, so rather like Corypheus, I don't think killing outright is a simple matter.   Likewise Solas/Fen'Harel and the other Evanuris.   I've posted elsewhere that I also suspect the Flemeth wasn't the first time that Mythal returned to Thedas through a mortal host.  I wonder if Tyrdda Brightaxe's leaf eared lover was in fact an incarnation, particularly as she is also known as the laughing Lady of the Skies, and the saga is an account of how the Avaar broke away from the Alamarri, around -1815 Ancient.   The Lady of the Skies is known as a goddess of the Avaar and we also know that the Avaar's gods are simply spirits that are occasionally called into mortal vessels to aid their people.  

 

I also wonder if Mythal either possessed Andraste or was the spirit who talked to her from the Fade.     The elves believe that Mythal created the world.    She is certainly credited with being the creator of the cities that make up Elvenhan.    Even if she is not actually the Maker, she could be a manifestation of the Maker Spirit and thus a mouthpiece for it.    If Mythal is not limited to one form at a time, then the Maker could have many avatars too.

[greenbrownblue]

Solas said they (the elven gods) will never die and the Inquisitor has in fact met her (as Flemeth) but yet he said they killed her?

 

so is she dead or not?

Solas did not say that the Evanuris would never die, did he? Also, Solas would not just kill Mythal - it's impossible. Mythal's spirit or w/e is either in Solas or in the Eluvian or in sth that was on the other side of the Eluvian.

[greenbrownblue]

How you know Flemeth is the true Mythal?

Oh cmon...... Flemeth admits she carries Mythal.............................................................

[Arshei]

Oh cmon...... Flemeth admits she carries Mythal.............................................................

 

You believe everything people say?

Wow, if a guy told you he has candies in his car you go with him?

[Aren]

He didn't say the Elvhen Gods can't die, just that they don't die easily.

Nobody in the DA universe die easly...

[Mykel54]

Before Solas kill her, Flemeth puts a wisp (with the exact same look as the old god baby wisp in the fade scene) through the Eluvian.

 

As she does that on every playthrough no matter the import, my guess is that the Mythal wisp survived and is probably looking for Morrigan/Inquisitor (whoever drank from the well) to be host for her wisp. It´s not like the servant of mythal can refuse.

[Dai Grepher]

She also says to Hawke on Sundermount that "bodies are such limiting things" when surprise is expressed how she could be in the amulet and confirms it was just a piece as a contingency should the Warden have killed her.   Presumably if this didn't happen she simply jumps from her current location into the piece on the altar when Merrill recites the ritual.     Clearly something of her remained in the Well and had enough power to confront Corypheus and then jump through the eluvian, destroying it in the process.   Before the encounter with Solas, Flemeth seems to send something through the eluvian, which could be another piece of her in anticipation of what would follow.    When Kieran uses the eluvian it takes him into the Fade, where Flemeth/Mythal appears to have an area under her control and yet we had previously been told that you needed the anchor to enter and remain in the Fade.   

 

So whatever Mythal was/is she does not seem bound by the normal laws of existence, so rather like Corypheus, I don't think killing outright is a simple matter.   Likewise Solas/Fen'Harel and the other Evanuris.   I've posted elsewhere that I also suspect the Flemeth wasn't the first time that Mythal returned to Thedas through a mortal host.  I wonder if Tyrdda Brightaxe's leaf eared lover was in fact an incarnation, particularly as she is also known as the laughing Lady of the Skies, and the saga is an account of how the Avaar broke away from the Alamarri, around -1815 Ancient.   The Lady of the Skies is known as a goddess of the Avaar and we also know that the Avaar's gods are simply spirits that are occasionally called into mortal vessels to aid their people.  

 

I also wonder if Mythal either possessed Andraste or was the spirit who talked to her from the Fade.     The elves believe that Mythal created the world.    She is certainly credited with being the creator of the cities that make up Elvenhan.    Even if she is not actually the Maker, she could be a manifestation of the Maker Spirit and thus a mouthpiece for it.    If Mythal is not limited to one form at a time, then the Maker could have many avatars too.

 

Slight correction. The Well spirit did not destroy the eluvian. She went through it, closed the portal, and then Corypheus smashed into it trying to get in, shattering it.

 

Flemeth probably created another clone, or had one ready. It's odd that she could just show up at the alter from out of a puff of smoke like that.
 

I don't think the anchor is needed to exist in the Fade physically. Something like it is needed to get there physically, but not remain there. The Magisters Sidereal did it without any anchor. It's unknown what magic was at work with Kieran and Flemeth. It's possible that Urthemiel's soul knew how to exist in the Fade physically, and this allowed Flemeth to travel there in the flesh as well. Then Morrigan followed the Inquisitor who had the anchor. But I don't think the anchor had anything to do with existing in the Fade physically. It was Veil magic. It opens and closes the vibration that holds the Fade back.

 

Then again, maybe having a magical vibration of your own holding the Fade back is what allows one to exist physically in the Fade. Maybe that's how the Magisters did it. The story about Falon'Din might imply this as well, saying he knew how to walk the paths of the Fade. The note on the Forbidden Ones also state they abandoned physical form to flee to the furthest reaches of the Fade. I just don't understand why something physical can't exist there. What would cause a physical body to be destroyed? And how is the water explained? It is speculated that it's the water from Crestwood. Also, the Black City is known to be physically there, and unchanging.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I also wonder if Mythal either possessed Andraste or was the spirit who talked to her from the Fade.     The elves believe that Mythal created the world.    She is certainly credited with being the creator of the cities that make up Elvenhan.    Even if she is not actually the Maker, she could be a manifestation of the Maker Spirit and thus a mouthpiece for it.    If Mythal is not limited to one form at a time, then the Maker could have many avatars too.

No they don't. The Elves don't believe any of the Evanuris created the world, but merely preside over it. The Elven religion believes in a being even higher than the Creators, symbolized by the Sun(which coincidentally is what symbolizes the Maker for the human religions), whom created the world and them.

[XEternalXDreamsX]

You believe everything people say?
Wow, if a guy told you he has candies in his car you go with him?

What kind?
... Just kidding.

[Sifr]

Flemeth is dead, Mythal is not.

 

Although, I suppose if we'd being technical, Flemeth has been dead for centuries as well, since she's not the original.

 

From what we're told, Flemeth was the name of the woman who first encountered Mythal and agreed to become her host. The essence of Mythal has thus been passed down throughout the ages (along with the title of "Flemeth") until it arrived at the woman who we know as Morrigan's mother.

 

When it comes to what exactly is transferred to the next host, I think that it's just Mythal and not "Flemeth", so when the host dies, that's it.

 

That being said, I do think that Mythal is able to share the memories from each host back to the original, allowing them all to retain the wealth of knowledge they've acquired over the centuries, as well as better understand the great betrayal that both Flemeth and Mythal suffered. This is why despite it not happening to her personally, Morrigan's mother still feels both bitterness and a desire that they "must be avenged" even after all this time.

 

So if Morrigan becomes the new recipient of Mythal's spirit (if that's what her mother was sending through the mirror), then she will become the new "Flemeth", at least if she chooses to use that title.

 

In a worldstate where Kieran exists, this would also explain Flemeth's secret test of character for Morrgian in the Fade, to see what kind of mother she was and whether or not she was suitable for Mythal (who adopted the role of mother goddess in the elven pantheon).

 

At least, that's my reading on the whole situation.

[Gervaise]

Sorry but the World of Thedas 1 on the elven pantheon specifically states that the Dalish believe that Mythal and Elgar'nan created the world.  (p.118)   I know this doesn't fit with the story of Elgar'nan throwing down the sun, but it wouldn't be the first time that the lore given in World of Thedas doesn't fit with what we have been told in game.    The other Creators are said to be the children of Mythal and Elgar'nan.    Of course we know the Dalish haven't remembered the story in its entirety and got some bits wrong but it seems to me that the legend that she created the world does fit with the idea that she created the ancient world of the cities of the elves that bridged the Fade and the material world.  Thus she was responsible for creating their world, which is what they remember, and this is the world that Solas wants to restore.  

 

Andraste states that first there was nothing but the Maker, the he created the Fade (heaven) and the spirits that occupied it (angels) that just like the world they inhabited were capable of constant change.   He gave them domination over the Fade and freedom to shape it as they wished but generally all they wanted to do was circle around the Golden City and sing his praises.  (Sound familiar?)   For some reason he wasn't happy with this (which is strange when you consider what follows), because he wanted them to do something  interesting, so he brought into being the material world and populated it with material beings that were connected with it, filling them with ambition but also giving them the ability to contact the Fade through dreams (although at this point if Solas is to be believed they could just walk over to him).   May be the material beings couldn't see the connection and were afraid to cross. 

 

Anyway, the existence of these beings of emotion in the material world attracted the attention of the spirits and they started taking on the attributes of the material emotions, including less benign thoughts such as envy and pride, thus changing from angels to demons (again does it sound familiar?)   Andraste actually says that the spirits themselves created envy through their jealousy of the second born children but this seems unlikely.  However, she also says they decided to appear to the second born in dreams and corrupted them that way.   This is clearly recounting the much later contact between the spirits and dreamers of the Neromenian tribes.   The bit that is missing from the Chant is the whole history of the elven empire and the dwarves (which is why the Chantry think humans are superior in the Maker's eyes).   What is more likely is that the Maker (or whatever spirit spoke with Andraste) was selective with their information.   Everything seems to point to spirits crossing over from the Fade to the material world, becoming more material as a result (elves) and building from there.     The jealousy of the spirits that Andraste talks about was probably the Forbidden or Forgotten Ones who were jealous of the worship the Creators had obtained and the fact they had been banished by them, so they bided their time until after the Creators had been banished themselves, which left the way open to them to contact the humans, raise them up and ultimately enslave the followers of their old enemies.

[CardButton]

You believe everything people say?

Wow, if a guy told you he has candies in his car you go with him?

We know Flemeth is at least strongly connected to Mythal (if not Mythal herself in some form) because if you drink from the Well of Sorrows and have OGB Keiren then you get this neat little scene where Flemeth uses the well to control the Inquisitor.  Also ... you also get to learn that with the proper amount of magic (an absurd amount) Elluvians can be made that go into the Fade ... if not perhaps there being Elluvians built in the fade already.

[Dai Grepher]

Sorry but the World of Thedas 1 on the elven pantheon specifically states that the Dalish believe that Mythal and Elgar'nan created the world.  (p.118)   I know this doesn't fit with the story of Elgar'nan throwing down the sun, but it wouldn't be the first time that the lore given in World of Thedas doesn't fit with what we have been told in game.    The other Creators are said to be the children of Mythal and Elgar'nan.    Of course we know the Dalish haven't remembered the story in its entirety and got some bits wrong but it seems to me that the legend that she created the world does fit with the idea that she created the ancient world of the cities of the elves that bridged the Fade and the material world.  Thus she was responsible for creating their world, which is what they remember, and this is the world that Solas wants to restore.  

 

Andraste states that first there was nothing but the Maker, the he created the Fade (heaven) and the spirits that occupied it (angels) that just like the world they inhabited were capable of constant change.   He gave them domination over the Fade and freedom to shape it as they wished but generally all they wanted to do was circle around the Golden City and sing his praises.  (Sound familiar?)   For some reason he wasn't happy with this (which is strange when you consider what follows), because he wanted them to do something  interesting, so he brought into being the material world and populated it with material beings that were connected with it, filling them with ambition but also giving them the ability to contact the Fade through dreams (although at this point if Solas is to be believed they could just walk over to him).   May be the material beings couldn't see the connection and were afraid to cross. 

 

Anyway, the existence of these beings of emotion in the material world attracted the attention of the spirits and they started taking on the attributes of the material emotions, including less benign thoughts such as envy and pride, thus changing from angels to demons (again does it sound familiar?)   Andraste actually says that the spirits themselves created envy through their jealousy of the second born children but this seems unlikely.  However, she also says they decided to appear to the second born in dreams and corrupted them that way.   This is clearly recounting the much later contact between the spirits and dreamers of the Neromenian tribes.   The bit that is missing from the Chant is the whole history of the elven empire and the dwarves (which is why the Chantry think humans are superior in the Maker's eyes).   What is more likely is that the Maker (or whatever spirit spoke with Andraste) was selective with their information.   Everything seems to point to spirits crossing over from the Fade to the material world, becoming more material as a result (elves) and building from there.     The jealousy of the spirits that Andraste talks about was probably the Forbidden or Forgotten Ones who were jealous of the worship the Creators had obtained and the fact they had been banished by them, so they bided their time until after the Creators had been banished themselves, which left the way open to them to contact the humans, raise them up and ultimately enslave the followers of their old enemies.

 

That might just be referring to how they created the world of the elvhen, not the physical planet or the sun. They also believe that the Earth has a consciousness and brought forth plants and animals. So I think it's saying the "Creators" made their civilization, but not the Fade or the Real.

 

The Chantry account states that the Maker created the Veil soon after creating the Real from the Fade in order to separate the two.

 

I think Andraste may have been talking about the old gods, actually. If the Maker spoke to her, then I doubt he would bother going into the history of the elvhen and dwarves, since it wasn't relevant to the humans. Remember, the Maker was just sitting back and watching. When the old gods turned humans away from him, he saw no reason to stay in the Golden City. But he imprisoned the old gods for their misdeeds anyway. When the Magisters Sidereal breached the Golden City and brought their corruption, the Maker returned and cursed them back to the Real. By that point he saw no reason to care about any of the Real races. It was Andraste's singing that interested him enough to have concern for the humans again, so it makes sense he would only focus on them and that which was relevant to them. The history about the Veil and the evanuris didn't matter by then, as that history was all long dead and forgotten.

 

The only conflict is who created the Veil. Andraste said it was the Maker. Solas claims he created it himself. My money is on Solas not remembering things properly, and being mistaken as usual. I believe the Maker created the Veil, but left parts open so that spirits and the living could learn from each other. The evanuris built cities in these Veil gaps. Then after millennia the wars between the evanuris reached a breaking point, they killed Mythal, and so in his anger and grief Solas sought a way to block the Fade entirely, and discovered the magical vibration that is the Veil. He developed a magic that could manipulate it, and with it brought the Veil together in the gaps, thus cutting the elvhen cities off from the Fade.

[almasy87]

I'm just thinking...

Sure she did send something through the mirror. But..
It is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that Solas now controls the Crossroads and the Eluvians. So wouldn't he be able to find whatever she has sent through the mirror?

Unless Morrigan found it immediately after she sent it...

[Aren]

 

 

As she does that on every playthrough no matter the import, my guess is that the Mythal wisp survived and is probably looking for Morrigan/Inquisitor

Not necessarily,as i have come to understand Mythal whispered to an elf after the ending of the main game.

She didn't search neither the Inqusitor and neither Morrigan.

[Dai Grepher]

I'm just thinking...

Sure she did send something through the mirror. But..
It is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that Solas now controls the Crossroads and the Eluvians. So wouldn't he be able to find whatever she has sent through the mirror?

Unless Morrigan found it immediately after she sent it...

 

Solas now controls the eluvians, but the Qunari were controlling them before that, and Briala controlled them before they did. So Flemeth sent the wisp through while Briala still controlled them. So Solas likely had no way to track down what Flemeth sent through. By the time he gained control Mythal would have already done whatever she needed to do. Then the Qunari found the eluvians and started activating them.

 

Whatever Flemeth sent would have most likely gone to Mythal, since Morrigan would not know to look for it.
 

[greenbrownblue]

You believe everything people say?

Wow, if a guy told you he has candies in his car you go with him?

You are being needlessly irrelevant and looking at your posts and topics I believe you do not know much about DA yet. Writers can't give players certain facts and then ignore them and create new facts forgetting completely about the old ones. Look at how ME fans reacted to numerous errors in Mass Effect Deceptions. Bioware ended up apologizing for incosistency. It is as if you tried to argue that dwarves are actually the most powerful magicians and the writers just lied to us. Flemeth carries Mythal. There are so many scenes that could never have happened if Mythal was not in Flemeth, that just ...meh. Go read some DA wikia or replay the game. You will understand why and perhaps take that candy that writers offered you. Amen.

[greenbrownblue]

We know Flemeth is at least strongly connected to Mythal (if not Mythal herself in some form) because if you drink from the Well of Sorrows and have OGB Keiren then you get this neat little scene where Flemeth uses the well to control the Inquisitor.  Also ... you also get to learn that with the proper amount of magic (an absurd amount) Elluvians can be made that go into the Fade ... if not perhaps there being Elluvians built in the fade already.

Yeah, indeed. Arguing the connection that Flemeth has with Mythal is just like looking for an opportunity to say sth stupid. The connection between them is obvious. The end.