75 Antworten in diesem Thema

[sjsharp2011]

like with the rachni queen depends on whether I'm paragon or Renegade my Paragon's let her live  seeimng as she's broken free of Sovereign's hold more often than not though my Shep's let her go.

[Kabooooom]

Killing her honestly makes a lot of sense, but if she was truly BSing, she wouldn't have willingly divulged so much information about Saren, his ship, and she certainly wouldn't have given Shep the Cipher. Because of this, I spare her, but I am almost 50/50 on it.

It's also worth noting that at this point in the story, without metagaming, Shepard has zero knowledge or understanding of indoctrination (even Shiala describes it more like a persuasion or hypnosis than what it actually is, because even she didnt understand it) and therefore he doesn't understand the danger of it. If he did, I would kill her every time.

[Livi14]

I've never killed her. She's just obviously on your side and trying to help Shepard, so I can't kill her on tactical grounds, and even if she weren't cooperative she could have valuable intelligence. All the bad things she did were under indoctrination so I can't kill her on moral grounds as she wasn't in control of herself. She thought she could help Benezia turn Saren aside from his evil path. An unwise course of action in my opinion, but not really a crime either. Unless you're just a recklessly killing her out of spite, ignoring how useful she could be. It just seems willfully ignorant and I can never do it.

[Kabooooom]

I've never killed her. She's just obviously on your side and trying to help Shepard, so I can't kill her on tactical grounds, and even if she weren't cooperative she could have valuable intelligence. All the bad things she did were under indoctrination so I can't kill her on moral grounds as she wasn't in control of herself. She thought she could help Benezia turn Saren aside from his evil path. An unwise course of action in my opinion, but not really a crime either. Unless you're just a recklessly killing her out of spite, ignoring how useful she could be. It just seems willfully ignorant and I can never do it.

At this point in the story, many Shepards wouldn't know much about Indoctrination if you did Feros first or immediately after Therum. All you would know is that Saren's ship has some sort of effect that Shiala describes more as a type of hypnosis, and that now that she is off the ship she is no longer under Saren's control.

You don't know what Indoctrination actually is, how pervasive it is, how Shiala's case is uniquely special and the only known case of someone actually being cured from Indoctrination...you know virtually nothing. If you met Shiala in ME3, after all the knowledge about Indoctrination that you now had, it would be damn near criminal for Shepard to let her live when every other case of Indoctrination has resulted in perfect sleeper agents (much like the other Asari you could let live in ME1, Rana Thanopsis I believe, who straight up kills a bunch of people and herself on Thessia later on due to Indoctrination).

[voteDC]

how Shiala's case is uniquely special and the only known case of someone actually being cured from Indoctrination...you know virtually nothing.

That's the thing though, she isn't cured. Shiala is still indoctrinated. Only the link with the colonists on Feros lets her resist it.

So you are exactly right, it is an incredible danger to let her live.

[Reorte]

That's the thing though, she isn't cured. Shiala is still indoctrinated. Only the link with the colonists on Feros lets her resist it.

So you are exactly right, it is an incredible danger to let her live.

How long distance is that link? She shows up on Illium in ME2, which should be far enough to remove her from it (not that we know much about how it works). But then there aren't any Reapers hanging around trying to push the indoctrination either.

[Kabooooom]

How long distance is that link? She shows up on Illium in ME2, which should be far enough to remove her from it (not that we know much about how it works). But then there aren't any Reapers hanging around trying to push the indoctrination either.

We know that the link has to utilize quantum entanglement, probably - when the Thorian dies, the Thorian Creepers 15,000 light years away on Nodacrux instantly go ballistic.

It wouldn't be the first time an organic species utilized communication like that - the Rachni are confirmed to as well.

That's the thing though, she isn't cured. Shiala is still indoctrinated. Only the link with the colonists on Feros lets her resist it.

So you are exactly right, it is an incredible danger to let her live.

I'm replaying the trilogy now so ill find out soon enough, but I've played ME2 too many times to count and I am almost positive that her conversation goes along the lines of "I'm worried I'm not free of indoctrination, but there is no evidence that I'm not. The link with the Thorian apparently broke the hold on me."

And suppressed control is essentially equivalent to an "effective" cure.

But again, at that point in ME1 no Shepards actually know how dangerous Indoctrination really is, unless you somehow do Feros after Virmire. Realistically though, even after talking with Benezia you dont grasp the full horror of it. Even after Virmire, you STILL dont have a full grasp of it, just that it totally and completely can obliterate someone's mind.

Consider Rana Thanoptis. To Shepard, there is a stark contrast between her and the indoctrinated, mindless Salarians he encountered just moments before. There is no external evidence that she is Indoctrinated, and yet, she is thoroughly Indoctrinated. Even when you meet her again in ME2 - she acts normal. But in ME3 she goes full Columbine on a bunch of Asari diplomats on Thessia.

Without metagaming, Shepards knowledge of Indoctrination only gradually accumulates throughout ME1 and 2. In retrospect, yes you should kill Shiala and you'd be negligent (or at least really, really stupid) not to. But at that time, there is no reason to think that she hasn't broken free from indoctrination.

[voteDC]

You get a message from Shiala in Mass Effect 3, which states she can feel the Reapers influence but being near the colonists is letting her resist it.

From: Shiala

Dear Commander Shepard:

I don't know if you've seen the articles, but the people of Zhu's Hope are fighting again. This time it's the Reapers instead of the geth.

I'm not sure if you remember me, but you helped me back on lllium. The Thorian is dead now. I can confirm that. But the spores in our bodies remain, and on some level, we are still connected.

This is not necessarily a bad thing. As we fight back the Reapers, we feel each other, and act with one mind, ignoring pain when the need arises. I'm sure I'm still indoctrinated. I remember Sovereign's voice in my mind when I went willingly to the Thorian as its thrall. But my connection to the people of Zhu's Hope is stronger. It drowns out the Reaper voices.

This situation is imperfect, and dangerous. Perhaps the colonists should separate, for their own safety. But with one mind, the untrained fight with the skill of veteran commandos. Our force is strong.

I have not forgotten how you helped us, how you spared me. We are leaving Feros soon, and when the time comes, we will fight with you.

Shiala

So there is the risk. As the colonists are killed, or even die of old age, how long is it really until their voices can no longer drown out those of the Reapers. We don't know how old Shiala is but the chance is there that she is going to outlive the colonists by centuries.

Of course the situation is much easier to talk about now we've finished all three games.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

In all my playthroughs, I have never killed Shiala.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So there is the risk. As the colonists are killed, or even die of old age, how long is it really until their voices can no longer drown out those of the Reapers. We don't know how old Shiala is but the chance is there that she is going to outlive the colonists by centuries.

Why would her lifespan matter? The Reapers are killed or pacified within a few months of that email. Thus no threat from indoctrination.

[voteDC]

Why would her lifespan matter? The Reapers are killed or pacified within a few months of that email. Thus no threat from indoctrination.

Are they all dead though? Would it not make sense, especially after discovering the plans for the Crucible existed, that they would leave some forces in dark space.

The energy wave as I understand it only affects the areas where there is a mass relay in range.

[KaiserShep]

Are they all dead though? Would it not make sense, especially after discovering the plans for the Crucible existed, that they would leave some forces in dark space.

The energy wave as I understand it only affects the areas where there is a mass relay in range.

 

I suppose it's sort of a moot point since the decision of whether or not she lives is considered well before the reapers are dealt with, but I don't think that the threat of indoctrination is a meaningful long-term concern for the post-war galaxy. If there was another reaper wave lying in wait at the galaxy's edge, whether or not some random folks are still indoctrinated won't matter, because if the reapers are still motivated to harvest, there would be nothing the galaxy could do about it in the state they're left in. 

[ArcadiaGrey]

At this point in the story, many Shepards wouldn't know much about Indoctrination if you did Feros first or immediately after Therum. All you would know is that Saren's ship has some sort of effect that Shiala describes more as a type of hypnosis, and that now that she is off the ship she is no longer under Saren's control.

You don't know what Indoctrination actually is, how pervasive it is, how Shiala's case is uniquely special and the only known case of someone actually being cured from Indoctrination...you know virtually nothing. If you met Shiala in ME3, after all the knowledge about Indoctrination that you now had, it would be damn near criminal for Shepard to let her live when every other case of Indoctrination has resulted in perfect sleeper agents (much like the other Asari you could let live in ME1, Rana Thanopsis I believe, who straight up kills a bunch of people and herself on Thessia later on due to Indoctrination).

 

This is so true and it's really easy to forget what you've learnt and remember that this is probably how Shiala should be viewed.

I've tried doing Feros last but the dialogue still flows as if you don't know about indoctrination yet, even if you've met Benezia.  So if I'm doing Feros first I have to remind myself to see the game through the eyes of the character right there and then, a Shepard who's never even heard the word indoctrination and for all he/she knows Shiala was just enthralled by a plant.  If this had happened in ME2 or 3 then why would you not kill her?  But at that point in ME1 you can make a case for letting her go purely from Shep's lack of knowledge. 

 

But if you do Feros after Noveria, then why would you risk letting her live?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Are they all dead though? Would it not make sense, especially after discovering the plans for the Crucible existed, that they would leave some forces in dark space.

The energy wave as I understand it only affects the areas where there is a mass relay in range.

They are all dealt with since dealt with the Catalyst and by extension them, either by killing him, taking his place, or pacifying him. Of the three endings, the Reapers are no longer a threat in any of them. The only ending where they are a threat is Refuse, and indoctrination becomes a mute point since they wipe us all out before the Feros colonists would die of natural causes. 

 

But if you do Feros after Noveria, then why would you risk letting her live?

Because murder is bad. 

[ArcadiaGrey]

Because murder is bad. 

 

Umm....have you played a video game before?  There's kinda a lot of that....

 

Besides, some characters totally deserve it. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Umm....have you played a video game before?  There's kinda a lot of that....

 

Besides, some characters totally deserve it. 

There's not a lot of murder in the vast majority of games. There is lots of killing yes, but that's not the same as murder. Even then I always try to seek out a peaceful or non-lethal option when possible. 

[ArcadiaGrey]

There's not a lot of murder in the vast majority of games. There is lots of killing yes, but that's not the same as murder. Even then I always try to seek out a peaceful or non-lethal option when possible. 

 

It's a fine line to be sure, one man's murder is another's 'I had no choice, honest'.

What could be interesting is seeing a more pacifist way to resolve conflicts in the future, so you can have a little less blood on your hands if you wish to do it that way.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It's a fine line to be sure, one man's murder is another's 'I had no choice, honest'.

What could be interesting is seeing a more pacifist way to resolve conflicts in the future, so you can have a little less blood on your hands if you wish to do it that way.

Eh, not really. Most of the time the people you kill in video games you do so because they are trying to kill you or others, so is in defense not murder. 

 

Yeah, that would be great. I mean, we are in the future so why can't we have weapons that stun people or lock their armor or something. 

Or in cases like this, have more than "You're free to go" or "You're dead" as the options, like the option to put the person in custody or observation. 

[Kabooooom]

This is so true and it's really easy to forget what you've learnt and remember that this is probably how Shiala should be viewed.
I've tried doing Feros last but the dialogue still flows as if you don't know about indoctrination yet, even if you've met Benezia. So if I'm doing Feros first I have to remind myself to see the game through the eyes of the character right there and then, a Shepard who's never even heard the word indoctrination and for all he/she knows Shiala was just enthralled by a plant. If this had happened in ME2 or 3 then why would you not kill her? But at that point in ME1 you can make a case for letting her go purely from Shep's lack of knowledge.

But if you do Feros after Noveria, then why would you risk letting her live?

This is why I play the game Therum, then Feros, then Noveria, then Virmire. It is obviously the way the story was written/intended to be experienced. They gave freedom to make it more open-world like, but its clear that they put little thought in changing the dialogue to reflect that.

[ArcadiaGrey]

This is why I play the game Therum, then Feros, then Noveria, then Virmire. It is obviously the way the story was written/intended to be experienced. They gave freedom to make it more open-world like, but its clear that they put little thought in changing the dialogue to reflect that.

 

Having played 4 times this last year and switching it up every time, I've come to the same conclusion.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

This is why I play the game Therum, then Feros, then Noveria, then Virmire. It is obviously the way the story was written/intended to be experienced. They gave freedom to make it more open-world like, but its clear that they put little thought in changing the dialogue to reflect that.

Really? After playing all the different possibilities I saw it as being Feros, Therum, Virmire, Noveria. 

Feros is the most urgent since a colony is under attack, and you end up with the Cipher. However you cannot understand it so you go to Therum to get Liara, a Prothean expert. You then learn that Saren has a base on Virmire, so go there to take him down. After that, you go to Noveria and get the Mu Relay location shortly after Saren does, which gets you to Ilos shortly after him thus why he is barely ahead of you. It also makes Saren's conversation about him having doubts before getting and recovering from the implants make more sense since he had more time to do that. 

[themikefest]

I do Feros first. Therum I do after Virmire

[cap and gown]

Really? After playing all the different possibilities I saw it as being Feros, Therum, Virmire, Noveria. 

Feros is the most urgent since a colony is under attack, and you end up with the Cipher. However you cannot understand it so you go to Therum to get Liara, a Prothean expert. You then learn that Saren has a base on Virmire, so go there to take him down. After that, you go to Noveria and get the Mu Relay location shortly after Saren does, which gets you to Ilos shortly after him thus why he is barely ahead of you. It also makes Saren's conversation about him having doubts before getting and recovering from the implants make more sense since he had more time to do that. 

 

This is my thinking as well. It is the mission order I am using for my 'canon' playthrough.

[ArcadiaGrey]

Really? After playing all the different possibilities I saw it as being Feros, Therum, Virmire, Noveria. 

Feros is the most urgent since a colony is under attack, and you end up with the Cipher. However you cannot understand it so you go to Therum to get Liara, a Prothean expert. You then learn that Saren has a base on Virmire, so go there to take him down. After that, you go to Noveria and get the Mu Relay location shortly after Saren does, which gets you to Ilos shortly after him thus why he is barely ahead of you. It also makes Saren's conversation about him having doubts before getting and recovering from the implants make more sense since he had more time to do that. 

 

That makes a lot of sense, I'll try that next time.

[iM3GTR]

I do Therum first because Insanity is really annoying without millions of immunity spamming Krogan flying through the air as opposed to hitting you.