124 réponses à ce sujet

[Valdez_ua]

And this means we have to personally interact with the little demonspawn...why exactly? All they need to know is that they're being protected. Keep the brats in school and out of my way. I have better things to worry about in an intergalactic warzone than babysitting a poorly written waste of space who only exists to create forced drama and tug on people's parental heartstrings.

I know its cool to call children demonspawns and tell everybody how you hate them and that you are a big bad cynic, but really, its not original and its 100% pure bs. In any war zone there are a lot of children and a lot of "forced drama" about them. And usually there is nobody to keep them out of the way of the soldiers. So children are a part of any real war story and leaving them out in a fiction story is just making story less believable and less emotionally touching.

[Scarlett]

Not my cup of tea.

 

But if you discover new species, on new planets and see/study the way they live, why not.

I'm ok to see their families and cultures, it's interesting and in accordance with a pathfinder mission.

 

Now having children on the ship just for having children because it's cute or more realistic, no thank you ~ But if they do that, then I want kids from all species, just not human kids.

[afgncaap7]

I know its cool to call children demonspawns and tell everybody how you hate them and that you are a big bad cynic, but really, its not original and its 100% pure bs. In any war zone there are a lot of children and a lot of "forced drama" about them. And usually there is nobody to keep them out of the way of the soldiers. So children are a part of any real war story and leaving them out in a fiction story is just making story less believable and less emotionally touching.

Are we calling Shepard's reaction to the Starchild "believable" and "emotionally touching" now? Did you just miss the part where everybody hated that character and everything he represented? He was a random kid that was shoehorned in to ME3 in an obvious attempt to make the fall of Earth more tragic because "oh no he's just an innocent child". Nevermind the apocalypse level death toll happening all around the galaxy, ONE kid was seen getting blown up. Soooooo sad. Nevermind the fact that Shepard sees death every single day, one random kid that he interacted with for a minute died in front of him. Sooooooo heartbreaking.

I don't hate kids. I value their lives as much as I value the life of any other random stranger that I don't know. What I do hate is how children are implemented in media. You can sit there and pretend that it would be a meaningful contribution all you want, but you know how it would actually happen. They'd stick some character in there whose one and only reason for existing is to either artificially create more drama in a dangerous environment because "a child's life is at stake" or to serve as a catalyst to make the main characters seem more "human"........because I guess everybody fell asleep during all the other touching and emotional scenes with interesting and well-acted characters that served the exact same purpose.

​Mass Effect has it's share of realism. It also has giant Cthulhu monsters and space magic. Sometimes you just have to suspend your disbelief.

[Helios969]

If MEA is what I think it's gonna be - a seed ship transplanting the MW natives it would be odd not to have children around.  It would completely ruin my suspension of disbelief if for example I have to fight off a hostile alien incursion against one of our starter colonies not to see terrified families.

[Valdez_ua]

Are we calling Shepard's reaction to the Starchild "believable" and "emotionally touching" now?

Yes, for many soldiers seeing dead children are the most tragic condition in the war on the same level as death of comrades. 

 

Did you just miss the part where everybody hated that character and everything he represented?

Lets be honest, everybody hated him because of the stupid catalyst ending and not because of the his tragic appearance in the beginning.
 

 

He was a random kid that was shoehorned in to ME3 in an obvious attempt to make the fall of Earth more tragic because "oh no he's just an innocent child". Nevermind the apocalypse level death toll happening all around the galaxy, ONE kid was seen getting blown up. Soooooo sad. Nevermind the fact that Shepard sees death every single day, one random kid that he interacted with for a minute died in front of him. Sooooooo heartbreaking.

Death of kids is always more tragic for average human then death of an adult. That's a nature of a man. I've worked with a lot of internally displaced people and soldiers in my country and besides a lot of tragic events that happened around them there are always few events that are heavily imprinted in the memory. For example my cousin who've been in a lot of trouble in last 1.5 years, the most tragic memory that he always remembers was death of his comrade by the direct hit of the mine in the trench. He saw a lot of other deaths and was under the constant howitzer fire for months, but this exact memory was the strongest and haunts him all the time.

 

They'd stick some character in there whose one and only reason for existing is to either artificially create more drama in a dangerous environment because "a child's life is at stake" or to serve as a catalyst to make the main characters seem more "human"........because I guess everybody fell asleep during all the other touching and emotional scenes with interesting and well-acted characters that served the exact same purpose.

Children life at stake is not an artificial drama, it's a real world drama which people deal with almost on everyday basis in the world. Only bad writing make it artificial. There were a 100 more artificial drama in bioware games concerning adults than concerning kids. And btw i don't consider intro in me3 with a kid artificial or bad written. If not for the stupid catalyst ending nobody would've been butthurt about this kid.

[Chealec]

Death of kids is always more tragic for average human then death of an adult. That's a nature of a man...

 

... And btw i don't consider intro in me3 with a kid artificial or bad written. If not for the stupid catalyst ending nobody would've been butthurt about this kid.

 

Meh - I'd be more traumatised if it was a dog.

 

I'm not a "people person"... and yes, I thought the introduction of a random child in the council offices at the start of ME3 was contrived as were all of the slightly tedious "dream sequences" (running through Marmite isn't a fun gameplay mechanic) - all the Catalyst did was justify putting all that crap into the game in the first place.

 

The game would have been better without any of it IMO.

[von uber]

You lot do realise you were all kids once, yes?

Incidentally being a parent if anything was to happen to little Sophia I'm not sure how I could go on.
Unless you are a parent you don't understand. It's hard to explain.

[Halfdan The Menace]

I'm okay with this but give me a renegade interrupt to slap the naughty ones or those spoiled by their rich parents.

[PlatonicWaffles]

For immersion in city hubs, sure? Just don't repeat that mess that was that kid in 3.

 

"You can't help me" - I get that was meant to be some metaphor for the citizens of Earth (as he represented according to the artbook), but come on, I'm Commander Shepard - I survived a suicide mission to and from the centre of the galaxy and this kid's telling me I can't get him out of a damn vent?

[Linkenski]

In the leaked script of ME3 there were children on the Citadel but due to it being forced (probably) they changed it into how it is in the final game where it's more of a symbol which is still forced but whatever.

 

 

For immersion in city hubs, sure? Just don't repeat that mess that was that kid in 3.

 

"You can't help me" - I get that was meant to be some metaphor for the citizens of Earth (as he represented according to the artbook), but come on, I'm Commander Shepard - I survived a suicide mission to and from the centre of the galaxy and this kid's telling me I can't get him out of a damn vent?

*Snicker* I like that this is your problem with it.

 

 

Snip

But like all drama in all storytelling you can't just throw in a random theme once, in the middle of the plot (which it is to every trilogy player) without any buildup and you can't convince the player the death of one kid is sad when A: You have never seen children in this series before until the plot demands something to be sad and emotional and B: The whole galaxy is getting wrecked and EVERYONE is getting killed and you have gained attachment to other characters whose demise would be so much more effective. Also, for good measure, C: New players have no sense of this setting or even the IP the scope, size or stakes by just seeing Earth and the death of a human kid.

 

Yes, it would've been sad in a side-mission if some kid got taken hostage and killed because you failed rescuing it or something but the reason it's forced and nobody bought it as truly sad or dramatic was because of how hamfisted it was. To make it not feel as forced in the game you'd just need to make it more subtle. The sight of the child walking into a flight and seeing that flight getting blown to bits is in itself a shock, but having to see Shepard, a friggin super-soldier look like he's about to cry as well as that obnoxious vent-scene and "you can't help me" was putting too much emphasis on something that really shouldn't be a big deal in the grand scheme of things and it reeked of the writing trying too hard to emotionally manipulate you rather than earning it the hard way.

 

Another good example of this writing mistake would be the intro of Enslaved: An Oddysey To The West in which you wake up in a prison and after a little segment of platforming you trigger a cutscene of some prisoner with a locked helmet on that glows red because he disobeys an order and then screams into the camera as the game tries to make you feel remorse for him but instead it almost made me chuckle because I had no idea what was even going on yet. It's the same problem with Mass Effect 3. As an old-timer you don't care because it is hamfisted when it's the first child you see and he's there for the sake of making you cry, and as a newcomer you just haven't soaked in what Mass Effect is like or about yet so why should you care?

[PlatonicWaffles]

*Snicker* I like that this is your problem with it.

Oh no, I could go on for hours about that damn kid and how poorly handled he was! And then there's the ending.

 

But like all drama in all storytelling you can't just throw in a random theme once, in the middle of the plot (which it is to every trilogy player) without any buildup and you can't convince the player the death of one kid is sad when A: You have never seen children in this series before until the plot demands something to be sad and emotional and B: The whole galaxy is getting wrecked and EVERYONE is getting killed and you have gained attachment to other characters whose demise would be so much more effective.

 

Yes, it would've been sad in a side-mission if some kid got taken hostage and killed because you failed rescuing it or something but the reason it's forced and nobody bought it as truly sad or dramatic was because of how hamfisted it was.

This this thisthtihtihsihsihsih oh my god this.

[SardaukarElite]

For immersion in city hubs, sure? Just don't repeat that mess that was that kid in 3.

 

"You can't help me" - I get that was meant to be some metaphor for the citizens of Earth (as he represented according to the artbook), but come on, I'm Commander Shepard - I survived a suicide mission to and from the centre of the galaxy and this kid's telling me I can't get him out of a damn vent?

 

Yeah but he's in a vent. Shepard can't go in vents, you need like JC Denton, Samus or Batman for that. 

[Donk]

Please don't give reason for MAME... Moms Against Mass Effect. God no...

 

 

I can already see it happening.

[Linkenski]

Why not? We already have SJWs against Bioware games making the company feel obligated to reach out and pander to everything and everyone so they can have a great relationship with their fans and live in good conscience they haven't violated the spoken truths from media outlets like Kotaku, and then Witcher 3 comes out and Kotaku gives Bioware the cold shoulder anyway telling them "you sugarcoated it" lol.

[ShadyKat]

I want to see some young NPCs in Andromeda so the world can feel more alive. I know there was one in ME3 but that was a human but imagine seeing aliens such as turians,quarians,krogans, or asari as children. Would you like to see some children NPCs in Andromeda?

Would be a nice touch, but let's be real, we would probably only see human children.

[KaiserShep]

Would be a nice touch, but let's be real, we would probably only see human children.

I dunno. Turians and asari seem pretty obvious to include, and they can look even more uniform because they're aliens. Heck they pretty much all look the same as adults anyway XD

[Vortex13]

I agree. It lacks as much weight when I simply see both of little Jona'Hazt's parents talking about him while being killed by geth, instead of watching he himself get blown apart into red mist or suffocated just the same by the toasters. How about some Krogan Rebellion era archive footage of salarian/turian/asari kids literally being eaten, eviscerated or evaporated in asteroid strikes by the hyperviolent battletoads? Reapers tossing some kids and infants that can't be used as husks into a protein vat? Wonder how many less would have cured the genophage/saved the geth/ chose synthesis with such things present to provide a more fair and balanced treatment of those options?

 

Didn't you know? The Krogan and Geth are blameless, holy creatures set upon by a cruel and heartless galaxy. And the Reapers, well they are just mindless forces of nature, like fire.  But yeah, it was really annoying to see all that revisionist history/whitewashing at work for the Genophage and Rannoch arcs. Forget the redirected asteroids on Turian garden worlds, forget the near extinction of the Quarian species, forget the Reapers' (Harbinger's in particular) sadistic pleasure from liquifying colonists slowly, one at a time, in full view of each other, etc. Just go along with the narrative slant. 

 

 

 

As you alluded to, Dead Space did this right. Kids don't get spared of the horrors of mutilation and calculated genocide by virtue of being innocent according to our systems of morality. Perhaps they needn't make it as graphic because ME isn't primarily a horror series, but children only being mentioned in dialogue yet never visually breaks immersion and immediately calls attention to how sanitized the subject matter of the setting is, all for the sake of most players being able to enjoy the good feelz and consequences of some of the rather reprehensible actions they are allowed.

 

 

 

Exactly, you can't have it both ways (IMO).

 

You can't present a setting as dangerous and capable of doing horrific things to people, and yet have children present who are exempt for any and all collateral damage. Either you have a setting that is equal opportunity in terms of potential violence, or you have a setting where violence is a nonexistent element. Trying to force the two together creates a narrative disconnect.

[Donk]

Why not? We already have SJWs against Bioware games making the company feel obligated to reach out and pander to everything and everyone so they can have a great relationship with their fans and live in good conscience they haven't violated the spoken truths from media outlets like Kotaku, and then Witcher 3 comes out and Kotaku gives Bioware the cold shoulder anyway telling them "you sugarcoated it" lol.

Ugh. That term "SJW". Putting that aside, having good relationships with fans is a joke to say the least provided what you stated there is actually true.

The amount of complaining and butthurt about supposed "offensive" content that I read around Inquisition's release.. Jeez. And this is Inquisition we are talking about!

All its led me to believe is that no matter what you do somebody will find something to nitpick and whinge about. It could be something completely innocent and unsuspecting I.e how's this for an example: Cassandra *RAPES* the Inquisitor in her romance scene because there was no consent dialogue option. Yes, somebody made that claim.

[Gramorla]

How high is the chance that they made children models when they where not able to implement female versions of most alien species in ME1-3? Turian Women only apear in 2 DLCs in ME3. And female Batarians where never seen among the refugees on the Citadel.

[pkypereira]

How high is the chance that they made children models when they where not able to implement female versions of most alien species in ME1-3? Turian Women only apear in 2 DLCs in ME3. And female Batarians where never seen among the refugees on the Citadel.

 

Krogan women also didn't show up until ME3. We also never saw Elcor/Vorcha females.

[NM_Che56]

I want to see some young NPCs in Andromeda so the world can feel more alive. I know there was one in ME3 but that was a human but imagine seeing aliens such as turians,quarians,krogans, or asari as children. Would you like to see some children NPCs in Andromeda?

 

 

I can imagine that if this game were truly about colonizing new worlds that we SHOULD see kids.  I think by having kids as NPCs in colonies it would truly give a boost to the concept of "hey, we need to find a new home for mankind so that we can go on a species".  It would be a "living" reminder of what's at stake and that's the future of humanity. 

[Han Shot First]

For immersion in city hubs, sure? Just don't repeat that mess that was that kid in 3.

 

"You can't help me" - I get that was meant to be some metaphor for the citizens of Earth (as he represented according to the artbook), but come on, I'm Commander Shepard - I survived a suicide mission to and from the centre of the galaxy and this kid's telling me I can't get him out of a damn vent?

 

It also isn't how kids act or speak. The writers chose a ham-fisted delivery of a metaphor over making the character believable, and all they got for their troubles is crazy IT speculation. 

[afgncaap7]

Yes, for many soldiers seeing dead children are the most tragic condition in the war on the same level as death of comrades. 

 

Lets be honest, everybody hated him because of the stupid catalyst ending and not because of the his tragic appearance in the beginning.
 

 

Death of kids is always more tragic for average human then death of an adult. That's a nature of a man. I've worked with a lot of internally displaced people and soldiers in my country and besides a lot of tragic events that happened around them there are always few events that are heavily imprinted in the memory. For example my cousin who've been in a lot of trouble in last 1.5 years, the most tragic memory that he always remembers was death of his comrade by the direct hit of the mine in the trench. He saw a lot of other deaths and was under the constant howitzer fire for months, but this exact memory was the strongest and haunts him all the time.

 

Children life at stake is not an artificial drama, it's a real world drama which people deal with almost on everyday basis in the world. Only bad writing make it artificial. There were a 100 more artificial drama in bioware games concerning adults than concerning kids. And btw i don't consider intro in me3 with a kid artificial or bad written. If not for the stupid catalyst ending nobody would've been butthurt about this kid.

Most real life soldiers aren't virtual avatars for a player.

​Let's be honest, you clearly haven't seen that many complaints about the Starchild if you believe the ending was the only thing people hated about him. He was a constant source of rolled eyeballs for the entire friggin game. You did actually play ME3 right?

​Children who die in real life are REAL PEOPLE. Children who die in a videogame are VIRTUAL PEOPLE. No matter how realistic games become, NPC's in a videogame will NEVER be held at the same level as actual, human relationships. I may shed a tear when one of my favorite characters winds up dead, but I won't be holding a funeral for them. A kid who dies in a war is a victim of events he had no control over. A kid who dies in a videogame is an artificial construct specifically created to draw a certain reaction from the audience. Are you seriously comparing the two?

​"Only bad writing makes it artificial". THANK YOU FOR POINTING OUT THE EXACT REASON WHY CHILDREN AREN'T GOING TO WORK IN MASS EFFECT! SOMEBODY GIVE THIS MAN A MEDAL!

[afgncaap7]

You lot do realise you were all kids once, yes?

Incidentally being a parent if anything was to happen to little Sophia I'm not sure how I could go on.
Unless you are a parent you don't understand. It's hard to explain.

 

And the fact that we all used to be kids makes kids less annoying and more tolerable......how exactly? Of course you're concerned about your child. Little Sophia is YOUR child. Am I supposed to be devastated if something happened to her? I don't know you or your kid. How is that fair to me? You weren't spilling any tears when my best friend died a few years ago, but why would you? You didn't know him. What makes your kid special to a complete stranger who has no emotional attachment to her? You don't care about my 3 nieces and 3 nephews, why should I care about your kid? I don't wish harm on her, but why should I personally care what happens to her? Little Sophia is your world, not mine.

[von uber]

I'm not saying it should, I am saying how kids being affected can affect the majority of adults who are parents in a way younger people, and those who do not have kids, will struggle to understand. I assume it's an evolutionary thing.

 

So in your example, someone who has also lost a friend at an early age will be able to relate to that loss, however the loss of a child is something that can affect on some level the majority of adults as they know that fear.

Ultimately if you become a parent as well you might understand that, and see why kids are an emoive and manipulative thing to use.

 

So for example, I really hate this advert:

 

 

As it manipulates me now in a way that wouldn't have happened a year ago on a real instinctive level.