124 réponses à ce sujet

[afgncaap7]

I'm not saying it should, I am saying how kids being affected can affect the majority of adults who are parents in a way younger people, and those who do not have kids, will struggle to understand. I assume it's an evolutionary thing.

 

So in your example, someone who has also lost a friend at an early age will be able to relate to that loss, however the loss of a child is something that can affect on some level the majority of adults as they know that fear.

Ultimately if you become a parent as well you might understand that, and see why kids are an emoive and manipulative thing to use.

 

So for example, I really hate this advert:

 

 

As it manipulates me now in a way that wouldn't have happened a year ago on a real instinctive level.

You think that just because I disagree with the notion that kids are inherently more important means that I can't understand it? That's the logic trap you people always fall into. It's like when an alcoholic gets angry about people criticizing their addiction and falls back on the canned response of "You don't do it so you can't understand it". Would you say that I need a bullet in my leg to know what a gunshot sounds like?

You have a child who you care deeply about. Seeing another child get harmed touches you on a deep level because you dread the idea of it happening to your own. You empathize with people in the same situation and they empathize with you because that's what humans do. I empathize with people who do not value children over anyone else just by virtue of them being children. I empathize with people who are tired and frustrated of this idea that children are holy and pure and must be treated with the utmost reverence just because they're young and innocent. I empathize with people who are fed up with "being volunteered" to babysit an obnoxious, needy, accident-prone kid because the parents who chose to have unprotected sex need a break from the stress that they brought upon themselves and will gladly guilt-trip their brother who's too damn nice for his own good.

​Lady, the "parent club" is not some lofty height that lesser people don't understand. It is a change of view. "the loss of a child is something that can affect on some level the majority of adults as they know that fear.".................as is the loss of a friend, a parent, a lover, a pet, a comrade, a mentor, etc, etc...Literally ANY death "can affect on some level the majority of adults". YOU believe children are "special", but here's a newsflash for you........the world does not revolve around you. More than anything else, our ability to question and choose not to obey our most basic instincts is what separates humans from wild animals. Think about it.

[KaiserShep]

And the fact that we all used to be kids makes kids less annoying and more tolerable......how exactly? 

 

10 year old me would hate to encounter 34 year old me. I'd smack myself upside the head and straighten my ass out, despite the risk of that causing me to vanish in a poof of paradox. 

[Linkenski]

Ugh. That term "SJW". Putting that aside, having good relationships with fans is a joke to say the least provided what you stated there is actually true.

The amount of complaining and butthurt about supposed "offensive" content that I read around Inquisition's release.. Jeez. And this is Inquisition we are talking about!

All its led me to believe is that no matter what you do somebody will find something to nitpick and whinge about. It could be something completely innocent and unsuspecting I.e how's this for an example: Cassandra *RAPES* the Inquisitor in her romance scene because there was no consent dialogue option. Yes, somebody made that claim.

Sounds stupid.

 

And while I concede your point that people will always find ways to be unhappy about Bioware's products or any game for that matter, I think it has its merits because I really don't consider the last 2 Dragon Age's to be that impressive and ME3 was actually quite impressive at times but understandably it had flaws that made lots of people infuriated. There is always something, whether it was the ME1 sex controversy or ME2's "romance ends after sex" headlines on games media and forum threads or ME3's ending suxx and DA:I is an SJW high fantasy wonderland and such.

 

Even though this may sound hypocritical to you even I think DA:I had some total nonsense around its release and I remember especially that infamous photoshop that edited all racial diversity out of Dorian and Josephine etc. because some fan complained about it. For me the "SJW" thing I like to throw around is that I think Bioware just got too inclusive in the sense that they had something for each and everyone and made entire quests or character backstories about it. Thankfully it's all well written but to me it felt out of place in Dragon Age to have such an emphasis on it. I know I'm being vague, but I guess I'm really referring to Klem and Dorian mostly. I really liked Dorian and wish he had some more development but instead his sidequest was wasted on something that, as well-acted and well addressed for what it was, seemed kind of like a missed opportunity for something more original. Also, don't get me started on the fact that there's a book or paper or whatever with the title "Sexuality in Thedas" lying about in the game's world, and it's especially hard to fathom all this when we came from DA:O which was infinitely more gritty and ruthless to any diversity kinda like The Witcher where as much as it may sometimes disrespect it, it also addressed it in its signature style of being a historic parallel universe.

 

I'm not saying I'm for the times when they brought in trans characters just to give them a funny accent and make them sound like idiots though. That kind of stuff is offensive to people and it was childishly done by Bioware. It's more their going overboard with inclusivity and pandering that I'm starting to get tired of.

[von uber]

You think that just because I disagree with the notion that kids are inherently more important means that I can't understand it? That's the logic trap you people always fall into. It's like when an alcoholic gets angry about people criticizing their addiction and falls back on the canned response of "You don't do it so you can't understand it". Would you say that I need a bullet in my leg to know what a gunshot sounds like?

You have a child who you care deeply about. Seeing another child get harmed touches you on a deep level because you dread the idea of it happening to your own. You empathize with people in the same situation and they empathize with you because that's what humans do. I empathize with people who do not value children over anyone else just by virtue of them being children. I empathize with people who are tired and frustrated of this idea that children are holy and pure and must be treated with the utmost reverence just because they're young and innocent. I empathize with people who are fed up with "being volunteered" to babysit an obnoxious, needy, accident-prone kid because the parents who chose to have unprotected sex need a break from the stress that they brought upon themselves and will gladly guilt-trip their brother who's too damn nice for his own good.

​Lady, the "parent club" is not some lofty height that lesser people don't understand. It is a change of view. "the loss of a child is something that can affect on some level the majority of adults as they know that fear.".................as is the loss of a friend, a parent, a lover, a pet, a comrade, a mentor, etc, etc...Literally ANY death "can affect on some level the majority of adults". YOU believe children are "special", but here's a newsflash for you........the world does not revolve around you. More than anything else, our ability to question and choose not to obey our most basic instincts is what separates humans from wild animals. Think about it.

 

Really hate being dragged into these sort of arguments, but:

1. No I don't think you can understand it until you have a child. I certainly didn't
2.  Suspect you need to have a chat with your parents based on 'obnoxious, needy, accident-prone kid because the parents who chose to have unprotected sex need a break from the stress that they brought upon themselves and will gladly guilt-trip their brother who's too damn nice for his own good' - sounds like you have some deep rooted issues there
3. I don't recall mentioning that the world revolves around me, I think you'll find I was quite clear it was my own personal opinion and fears and how the use of children is effective at manipulating those adults who have them in a way you will never understand if you have never had kids
4. Protecting your child is a basic instinct for a very good reason, and has nothing to do about separating us from wild animals. Don't be so asinine
5. I'm a bloke. I don't see how you have jumped to the conclusion I am a woman. Men care about their children too you know

[ZipZap2000]

We also never saw Elcor/Vorcha females.

That's because they suck.

Also, nobody cared.

[KaiserShep]

Also, don't get me started on the fact that there's a book or paper or whatever with the title "Sexuality in Thedas" lying about in the game's world, and it's especially hard to fathom all this when we came from DA:O which was infinitely more gritty and ruthless to any diversity kinda like The Witcher where as much as it may sometimes disrespect it, it also addressed it in its signature style of being a historic parallel universe.

 

Lol, it certainly was not. The only ones the game was ever really harsh to were elves and the poor, which were usually one and the same. 

[afgncaap7]

 

Really hate being dragged into these sort of arguments, but:

1. No I don't think you can understand it until you have a child. I certainly didn't
2.  Suspect you need to have a chat with your parents based on 'obnoxious, needy, accident-prone kid because the parents who chose to have unprotected sex need a break from the stress that they brought upon themselves and will gladly guilt-trip their brother who's too damn nice for his own good' - sounds like you have some deep rooted issues there
3. I don't recall mentioning that the world revolves around me, I think you'll find I was quite clear it was my own personal opinion and fears and how the use of children is effective at manipulating those adults who have them in a way you will never understand if you have never had kids
4. Protecting your child is a basic instinct for a very good reason, and has nothing to do about separating us from wild animals. Don't be so asinine
5. I'm a bloke. I don't see how you have jumped to the conclusion I am a woman. Men care about their children too you know

 

1. There's that canned response. Again.

​2. Or maybe I was using a convenient example that I've had the "pleasure" of experiencing myself and know that at least some people who stumble into this topic can relate to. I don't like seeing parents pawn their kids off on other people so I clearly have "issues" eh?
​
3. Canned response yet again. You're not even saying my explanation was wrong. If you're so adamant that you're right and I'm wrong then stop pressing the easy button and explain it. If it's such a strong emotion then I'm sure you can find a way to describe it.
​
4. I see my point went right over your head. As a living creature your most basic instincts are "survive and procreate". How many wild animals do you see that would risk injury or death to protect a random stranger? How many wild animals do you see that would choose not to mate when they're in heat? Humans have the ability to choose. Rescuers in a hurricane choose to risk their life to protect somebody that they may very well never see or interact with again. They don't want to put themselves in danger, but they choose to do so anyway. A horny man or woman has the ability to decide that sex isn't worth the risks and abstain even while the head below their waist is telling them that they're a fool.

The instinct to protect and care for a child is no different. Children are the future of your species and they need your intervention to survive. This is the entire reason people are pre-programmed to view them as "special" or make them a higher priority when compared to adults. I understand this just fine. I've made a conscious decision to deny my most basic instincts and not categorize children as "more important" unless they actually are more important to me specifically. If the intro to ME3 forced me to choose between saving Anderson or saving the Starchild then I'd let the Starchild die every time without a shred of guilt. Where you might see a "poor child" I see a helpless miniature human who's a liability in any dangerous situation and who needs excess time and resources spent on them just for the chance that it MIGHT payoff at some point in their life. I obviously wouldn't just throw a child to the wolves, but I don't necessarily mind if people would keep their little "bundles of joy" far away from me so they don't become my problem. Catch my drift?

​5. Female avatar and talking about a subject that I've come to associate more with mothers than fathers. I made a guess with limited information that had a 50% chance of being right. Deal with it and move on to something more important.

​Maybe my words have caused you to think about this subject from a different perspective, maybe they haven't. Either way I've spoken my mind and have nothing left to say on this subject. Cherish your little Sophia. I'll cherish the freedom I've gained by choosing not to have kids.

[Khrystyn]

BTW, this topic was raised earlier in this thread:
 
http://forum.bioware...64323-children/

[J. Finley]

It could be neat to have a child character we could potentially bond with in a big brother/sister sort of way. It worked in the walking dead...

 

But knowing people they'll be trying to take it too far, lol. Damn Cluke.

[slimgrin]

I don't get why this should be skipped. It helps flesh out the world, make it believable. To have nothing but adults running around is weird. Developers need to take this into consideration. 

[yolobastien6412]

I kind of understand why there aren't that many children in Mass Effect. So the hub of the galaxy was supposed to be places like the Citadel or Omega, and so it is not unusual to not see any children living there, for different reasons. One reason for the Citadel could be that all the people working there were not fond of having to take care of children after their stressful day. As for Omega, do you want to have your child kidnapped, cause that's how you get your child kidnapped.

 

For ME:A, it could work but only on the Ark and in very safe settlements. I dont think anyone would want to have their children in a military outpost, unless they're for live target practice.

[Mdizzletr0n]

I kind of understand why there aren't that many children in Mass Effect. So the hub of the galaxy was supposed to be places like the Citadel or Omega, and so it is not unusual to not see any children living there, for different reasons. One reason for the Citadel could be that all the people working there were not fond of having to take care of children after their stressful day. As for Omega, do you want to have your child kidnapped, cause that's how you get your child kidnapped.

For ME:A, it could work but only on the Ark and in very safe settlements. I dont think anyone would want to have their children in a military outpost, unless they're for live target practice.

I disagree. It didn't make sense. As far as the citadel as a sole hub of politics and business...MAYBE. But Omega? People lived there. It was ruthless yes, but there's lots of kids that grow up in places like that. Even some of Shepard's back stories allude to it.

I don't think they should only be in completely safe settlements. Especially if BW is trying to create a living, breathing galaxy that isn't just composed of set pieces to go into, shoot stuff and leave.

[BIGGLESBY]

Bioware hates children.

[Akrabra]

I don't get why this should be skipped. It helps flesh out the world, make it believable. To have nothing but adults running around is weird. Developers need to take this into consideration. 

Slimgrin gets it. This has nothing to do with annoyance or your view on children! It is freaking world building 101, it is needed to make a believeable setting. 

[Chealec]

Slimgrin gets it. This has nothing to do with annoyance or your view on children! It is freaking world building 101, it is needed to make a believeable setting. 

 

Then why put the kid, at the start of ME3, inside what effectively amounts to a "Parliament of Earth" building? Unless he was there on some kind of school trip, or guided tour - in which case, what was he doing right inside the presumably restricted governmental offices? That wasn't believable - it was contrived.

 

Sure, if we're getting to Andromeda via Colony Ship then yup, there are gonna be sprogs running about - but BioWare have never sacrificed contrived plot devices for believable settings in the past.

[slimgrin]

They don't do it because they don't want to create the extra models. Has nothing to do with plot or story. It's another instance of them cutting corners, and if they want to make more realized hubs this time, they have to include greater variety.

[KaiserShep]

I don't get why this should be skipped. It helps flesh out the world, make it believable. To have nothing but adults running around is weird. Developers need to take this into consideration.

I agree. Making a more believable, relatable world should be paramount when you want players to be invested in the fictional universe you've created.

[VelvetStraitjacket]

Keep the little spawns of Satan away from Andromeda. 

 

What this wise person said.

I don't need to see kids to know they're somewhere around the Ark or whatever, acting a fool. And after ME3 I don't want to see another kid in ME ever again.

[Vortex13]

Slimgrin gets it. This has nothing to do with annoyance or your view on children! It is freaking world building 101, it is needed to make a believeable setting. 

 

 

I agree, except when the inclusion of children as NPCs; their models, animations, voice actors, etc; lead to cut content for other parts of the setting. BioWare being unable to fully realize their version of Blindsight's Scramblers or Edge of Tomorrow's Mimics in favor of little humans would be detrimental to world building as well.

 

Also, how much are we wanting to see children as a part of the setting? Do we want to just see them as glorified background props, akin to the Elcor and Hanar, or do we want to have them be more involved in the game? If it's the first one, then why really bother creating the models if you aren't ever going to use them in any worthwhile fashion? And if it's the second one, then you are going to have to address the potential (and to be frank, quite likely given the uncharted, uncivilized nature of the setting) violence that can be visited upon them.

[slimgrin]

I agree, except when the inclusion of children as NPCs; their models, animations, voice actors, etc; lead to cut content for other parts of the setting. BioWare being unable to fully realize their version of Blindsight's Scramblers or Edge of Tomorrow's Mimics in favor of little humans would be detrimental to world building as well.

 

Also, how much are we wanting to see children as a part of the setting? Do we want to just see them as glorified background props, akin to the Elcor and Hanar, or do we want to have them be more involved in the game? If it's the first one, then why really bother creating the models if you aren't ever going to use them in any worthwhile fashion? And if it's the second one, then you are going to have to address the potential (and to be frank, quite likely given the uncharted, uncivilized nature of the setting) violence that can be visited upon them.

 

Use them like this:

 

 

There's so many instances in TW3 where you can stop and savor little moments, and part of that is listening to the hilarious things kids say or watching them play in a puddle, or dance and sing. There are also several quests where kids are involved and it never comes off as cutesy or melodramatic. We're among settlers and finding new worlds in Andromeda. In that context, I'll find it strange if we never see any kids. And as for it taking away from other resources, in this case that seems a stretch. Were talking more time from the art dept. not interrelated game mechanics or new modes. 

[mopotter]

It depend on how long we have been on the planet.  

 

I don't see a lot of kids or any of them,  being there if we have just landed at the start of the game ready to explore this world we've landed on.   If we have been there for a number of years and some towns have been built, I would expect to see younger and older kids in towns or farms, that would make sense and gives the illusion of a future being planed.   

 

I like the way FA4 has the kids talk about how much work it is on a farm but I don't particularly want to interact with them.  Lamplight is one of my favorite FA3 towns and I do think in an extreme setting  when adults are killed and the kids left on their own, they will band together and adults should probably stay away but I don't see this happening in this game.  

 

Don't want them killable, mods will eventually be made for this no matter what people say someone will figure it out. Though if  you go to a town/farm that has been wiped out there should be bodies of the kids living there as well as the adults.

 

For me it just adds another layer of a world building.

[mopotter]

I kind of understand why there aren't that many children in Mass Effect. So the hub of the galaxy was supposed to be places like the Citadel or Omega, and so it is not unusual to not see any children living there, for different reasons. One reason for the Citadel could be that all the people working there were not fond of having to take care of children after their stressful day. As for Omega, do you want to have your child kidnapped, cause that's how you get your child kidnapped.

 

For ME:A, it could work but only on the Ark and in very safe settlements. I dont think anyone would want to have their children in a military outpost, unless they're for live target practice.

 

Citadel did have kids.  We just never saw them.  Duct rats.    

[Khrystyn]

Perhaps those who advocate for including children as characters in ME:A should write their own interesting story, post it here, and demonstrate an excellent example of why it is such a good idea. Do you just want to see children running around, or have a significant interaction with them?  Have kids in a significant role in an assignment?  Integral to a mission?  Will they need to be rescued or protected? Perhaps saving some alien children might help the Milky Way travelers demonstrate their worthiness and value.  It's one thing to say they should be included, and quite another to write an outline that will really make the case for it. 

[mopotter]

Perhaps those who advocate for including children as characters in ME:A should write their own interesting story, post it here, and demonstrate an excellent example of why it is such a good idea. Do you just want to see children running around, or have a significant interaction with them?  Have kids in a significant role in an assignment?  Integral to a mission?  Will they need to be rescued or protected? Perhaps saving some alien children might help the Milky Way travelers demonstrate their worthiness and value.  It's one thing to say they should be included, and quite another to write an outline that will really make the case for it. 

Personally - I don't care if they can be interacted with, any more than the other people wondering around can be interacted with. Walk through the Citidel or any other stop along the way in any game (that I've played) and people are talking to each other, some you can join the conversation and some you can't. I see kids in the same light as these adults, just making the surroundings more life like.  

 

Have some older kids talk about skipping their chores to go skinny dipping with friends or worrying about something they heard their parents talk about, or younger kids complaining that their sibling gets all the easy jobs. Just atmosphere enhancers helping to bring the world more alive..  I do like seeing the world I'm trying to imagine being as real as any other story world and seeing characters that aren't all adult or all male or female or all human.....,would be a nice touch. 

 

I did like having Mission along in KOTOR and Wild Flower in Jade Empire, but don't care one way or the other if they have a kid join my team in some future game.  

[Pearl (rip bioware)]

Only if Bioware allows us to kill them; it'd be pretty cathartic after dealing with Starchild for an extended amount of time. But that probably wouldn't sit too well with the various rating boards.