76 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

I agree with you and I think that this is more or less what naturally happens in every RPG game that I play.

At the beginning, where my character is usually very poor and weak I use to keep everything, because every single coin may be worth it, and in order to buy better gear, some life-save potion, and so on.. Later I usually tend to discard every item which is not very useful or that doesn't provide at least a fair amount of gold. I remember in BG and in IWD at higher level I didn't ever bother with any weapon or armor which wasn't a "unique item", allmost every gem, lesser potions and low-spells scrolls. Like you said, enemies must drop everything, but is up to you to choose carefully what to keep.

If your 20th level character is keeping in his inventory 250 weapons +1, 400 cure light wounds potions, 800 aid scrolls and so on, which have a total value of maybe 1000 gold while you own already 500.000 gold, it's not a fault of the inventory system then....

I recall a tabletop campaign I was in where the party had a wagon train behind them. One of the wagons carried only magic weapons.

Handy when the world contains rust monsters and the like, but silly nonetheless.

[MaxQuartiroli]

Handy when the world contains rust monsters and the like, but silly nonetheless.

 

Or if you know that you are going to need a lot of gold.

 

On the other side this make me ponders about the silliness of many games where merchants have an endless amount of gold and simply agree to buy everything from you.. Giving merchant a limit to the amount of goods that they can buy, and making them interested only in their kind of articles (i.e. weapon merchant will buy only weapon but won't be interested in scrolls) is another good way to limit yourself. You'll know that it will be totally worthless taking with you 100 swords +2 when you know that you'll be able to sell at most 10 because the merchants then will run out of gold.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Or if you know that you are going to need a lot of gold.

On the other side this make me ponders about the silliness of many games where merchants have an endless amount of gold and simply agree to buy everything from you.. Giving merchant a limit to the amount of goods that they can buy, and making them interested only in their kind of articles (i.e. weapon merchant will buy only weapon but won't be interested in scrolls) is another good way to limit yourself. You'll know that it will be totally worthless taking with you 100 swords +2 when you know that you'll be able to sell at most 10 because the merchants then will run out of gold.

That was one of the main reasons for the wagons. No town would have enough money to buy all those weapons, and if they did some adventuring troupe would inevitably pillage them.

[MaxQuartiroli]

That was one of the main reasons for the wagons. No town would have enough money to buy all those weapons, and if they did some adventuring troupe would inevitably pillage them.

 

How could wagons be safer than a bag of gold?

We all know that caravans have the bad habit of being assaulted in every respectable campaign!

[Realmzmaster]

Along with weighted items I would like to see unidentified magical items brought back. For example the party finds a shield in Valeska's Watch. The shield is immediately identified as Wintersbreath and the party knows exactly what it does and its history. That makes no sense. I can understand that if there is a mage in the party it can be determined that it is magical (or maybe cursed), but not the history of the piece or its capabilities especially for a unique item.

 

The other way to identify whether is is cursed or not is to try it on. If the item is cursed that could trigger a quest to find a way to remove the curse. Or maybe the item has a geas which compells the wearer to perform a certain act.  If the item is not cursed the wearer may continue to wear it and through combat or other ways learn the properties of the item.

[AlanC9]

There is also the problem that the player's inventory, at least in DA games, is the entire party's inventory. Party members don't have their own inventory to manage. If I am playing a non-mage, but I want to have extra elemental damage staves for my mages, I have to carry them myself and switch them out when necessary, I can NOT put them in my mages' bags and have them carry their own staves. The same applies to other +damage weapons, or +elemental resistance gear (+fire for dragon fights, and so on). I would love to have my inventory contain my own gear and not have to sift through a bunch of other gear when I have to sell to a merchant. But that just isn't how DA has been done to this point. DAI even made it a tad worse because you still see equipped items in the inventory list.

As written, this seems awfully confused. You're equating "my inventory" with "the PC's inventory."

[BSpud]

immersion

 

ugh

[nightscrawl]

As written, this seems awfully confused. You're equating "my inventory" with "the PC's inventory."

I am, because that is how I want it to be done.

 

I'm not sure where the confusion is, so I will elaborate in another way. I do not consider "my inventory" to be that which I as the player have access to, that is, all inventory for everyone. I consider my inventory to be that of my PC. I'll use names for clarity's sake -- I would prefer that Dorian's inventory be his own. I, as the player, can manage it, put extra staves and gear in his bags, but that is still his own stuff that he carries around. I don't think that my PC should be burdened with carrying around gear for the entire party, which has been the case with all DA games to date.

 

Do note that I'm not suggesting that Dorian be able to equip these items via AI. I'm not expecting that much out of tactics, even though I know it's possible. Rather that he simply carry his own selection of gear around with him, and I can switch to him and manage his inventory, switch out pieces and so forth, as the need arises.

 

I suppose this has the added danger of allowing the player to turn party members into pack mules, but in a way that adds to realism. If we're out adventuring in the world, people would spread out the loot and have multiple people carrying a portion; it would not all be foisted onto a single person.

[Realmzmaster]

I am, because that is how I want it to be done.

 

I'm not sure where the confusion is, so I will elaborate in another way. I do not consider "my inventory" to be that which I as the player have access to, that is, all inventory for everyone. I consider my inventory to be that of my PC. I'll use names for clarity's sake -- I would prefer that Dorian's inventory be his own. I, as the player, can manage it, put extra staves and gear in his bags, but that is still his own stuff that he carries around. I don't think that my PC should be burdened with carrying around gear for the entire party, which has been the case with all DA games to date.

 

Do note that I'm not suggesting that Dorian be able to equip these items via AI. I'm not expecting that much out of tactics, even though I know it's possible. Rather that he simply carry his own selection of gear around with him, and I can switch to him and manage his inventory, switch out pieces and so forth, as the need arises.

 

I suppose this has the added danger of allowing the player to turn party members into pack mules, but in a way that adds to realism. If we're out adventuring in the world, people would spread out the loot and have multiple people carrying a portion; it would not all be foisted onto a single person.

 

Basically what you are saying is that you want individual inventories instead of a joint inventory for the entire party. That use to be the case in many crpgs. For example BG1 and BG2 each member had his/her own inventory. The gamer could transfer items from one member inventory to another member's inventory.

 

That was used when there was also a weight system. The amount that each character could carry was based on the strength of the character. The higher the strength value the more weight that could be carried.

 

DA's system did away with individual inventories when it got rid of the weight system.

[Sylvius the Mad]

How could wagons be safer than a bag of gold?

No merchant had that much gold with which to buy weapons.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Basically what you are saying is that you want individual inventories instead of a joint inventory for the entire party. That use to be the case in many crpgs. For example BG1 and BG2 each member had his/her own inventory. The gamer could transfer items from one member inventory to another member's inventory.

That was used when there was also a weight system. The amount that each character could carry was based on the strength of the character. The higher the strength value the more weight that could be carried.

DA's system did away with individual inventories when it got rid of the weight system.

You can still have a weight system with a shared inventory. Wizardry 8 did it. The shared weight was distributed proportionally based on each character's carrying capacity.

[UniformGreyColor]

What I don't understand is why Bioware doesn't get that players are going to keep certain items. They just are. Whether you think it's ridiculous, or pointless, or whatever else, players WILL do it. There was no storage chest in DAO; they added one with the Warden's Keep DLC and in DAA to much delight. DA2 had a storage chest by default -- happy days! DAI did not have a storage chest until a few patches in, and it was a requested item.

Having a system of weights and encumbrance that required you to manage your inventory wouldn't be so bad as long as they have storage from the outset of the game. That way, players can keep all of their extra junk for whatever reason -- RP or practical -- and carry only what they need.
 
There is also the problem that the player's inventory, at least in DA games, is the entire party's inventory. Party members don't have their own inventory to manage. If I am playing a non-mage, but I want to have extra elemental damage staves for my mages, I have to carry them myself and switch them out when necessary, I can NOT put them in my mages' bags and have them carry their own staves. The same applies to other +damage weapons, or +elemental resistance gear (+fire for dragon fights, and so on). I would love to have my inventory contain my own gear and not have to sift through a bunch of other gear when I have to sell to a merchant. But that just isn't how DA has been done to this point. DAI even made it a tad worse because you still see equipped items in the inventory list.

 

As some have said, not only should each party member have their own inventory, but they should be able to hold different amounts as well. A warrior can just naturally carry more because presumably they are stronger, but with heavy armor on that should count towards the weight that they can carry as well.

 

Or if you know that you are going to need a lot of gold.

 

On the other side this make me ponders about the silliness of many games where merchants have an endless amount of gold and simply agree to buy everything from you.. Giving merchant a limit to the amount of goods that they can buy, and making them interested only in their kind of articles (i.e. weapon merchant will buy only weapon but won't be interested in scrolls) is another good way to limit yourself. You'll know that it will be totally worthless taking with you 100 swords +2 when you know that you'll be able to sell at most 10 because the merchants then will run out of gold.

 

To add to this, I think the merchants, as their pockets get more empty, they should be more selective in what they are willing to buy. This can work as a general rule as well as depending on the item and the merchants forte for what they like to buy and sell. So lets say you have a magic dagger, well a merchant who usually only buys scrolls and books might just be willing to buy this dagger because of its rarity and the ability to sell it at high cost (kinda like the control rod type of thinking in DA:O).

 

Along with weighted items I would like to see unidentified magical items brought back. For example the party finds a shield in Valeska's Watch. The shield is immediately identified as Wintersbreath and the party knows exactly what it does and its history. That makes no sense. I can understand that if there is a mage in the party it can be determined that it is magical (or maybe cursed), but not the history of the piece or its capabilities especially for a unique item.

 

The other way to identify whether is is cursed or not is to try it on. If the item is cursed that could trigger a quest to find a way to remove the curse. Or maybe the item has a geas which compells the wearer to perform a certain act.  If the item is not cursed the wearer may continue to wear it and through combat or other ways learn the properties of the item.

 

This is nothing but a great idea. Much like how in DA:I you can use a "special" in dialog to defer to Solas to gain an ancient elven artifact (that gives you a power amulet), I would like to see this incorporated to special equipment as well.

[nightscrawl]

Eh, I found the unidentified items to be annoying. If I get a shiny I want to be able to, 1 know that I should be excited/happy right away, rather than disappointed on discovering it's something I won't use, and 2 be able to use it immediately.

 

I've had to deal with identifying items in Neverwinter Nights and Diablo III, and found the process in both games to be nothing but tiresome.

[UniformGreyColor]

Eh, I found the unidentified items to be annoying. If I get a shiny I want to be able to, 1 know that I should be excited/happy right away, rather than disappointed on discovering it's something I won't use, and 2 be able to use it immediately.

 

I've had to deal with identifying items in Neverwinter Nights and Diablo III, and found the process in both games to be nothing but tiresome.

 

To me, it would be a form of discovery and realism (in a fantasy world ofc) that I would very much enjoy.

[AlanC9]

You can still have a weight system with a shared inventory. Wizardry 8 did it. The shared weight was distributed proportionally based on each character's carrying capacity.

Interesting idea. In effect, the work of distributing items between party members just gets abstracted away.

Was there just a hard cap on weight, or was encumbrance modeled?

[Realmzmaster]

You can still have a weight system with a shared inventory. Wizardry 8 did it. The shared weight was distributed proportionally based on each character's carrying capacity.

 

Absolutely, I was pointing out that DA did away with both. Also Wizardry allowed the mage to vary the potency of the spell by varying the amount of power assigned.

[Realmzmaster]

Eh, I found the unidentified items to be annoying. If I get a shiny I want to be able to, 1 know that I should be excited/happy right away, rather than disappointed on discovering it's something I won't use, and 2 be able to use it immediately.

 

I've had to deal with identifying items in Neverwinter Nights and Diablo III, and found the process in both games to be nothing but tiresome.

 

Which is why I suggested that the party member be able to use the item and overtime ascertain its properties. Cursed items give an immediate effect. Of course the gamer would have a decision to make as to the risk of using the item or waiting for total identification.

 

Like the Wintersbreath example. No one would use the shield unless by accident because of the negative effects which are told immediately upon pickup. The game requires that the shards be researched. I see no reason why an unidentified item could not be researched.

 

So we are back to the how much realism do you want in your fantasy..

[Sylvius the Mad]

So we are back to the how much realism do you want in your fantasy..

As much as is required for the world to be coherent.

[Realmzmaster]

As much as is required for the world to be coherent.

 

I agree with you, but quite a few posters on this forum have not figured out what is that coherency or are using different interpretations or definitions.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Interesting idea. In effect, the work of distributing items between party members just gets abstracted away.

Was there just a hard cap on weight, or was encumbrance modeled?

I honestly don't remember.

 

I suspect it was a hard cap.  But of course, any gear being used by a given character counted only toward that character's weight limit, while the weight of shared goods were shared.  So adding more gear to a character had the effect of reducing the weight capacity of the shared inventory.

[MaxQuartiroli]

To me, it would be a form of discovery and realism (in a fantasy world ofc) that I would very much enjoy.

 

Identification of magic items was tricky only at low levels. After a while you had so many options (lore abilities, identification spells, identification scrolls, identification glasses) that the identification process resulted only in a mechanical process of right click -> identify -> use x -> that, after a while was merely tedious. Moreover, in many cases it was also silly: my lvl 20 rogue found the 4800th Acid Arrow of his life and he needed something in order to identify it.. really?!

Therefore I suppose that they removed it because they just assumed that you, as an adventurer, should have already some way to identify the majority of the magic items that you find. I am not saying that it is a good thing but just that it's not easy to find the right balance between realism and the desire to avoid superfluous tasks for the players.

[UniformGreyColor]

Identification of magic items was tricky only at low levels. After a while you had so many options (lore abilities, identification spells, identification scrolls, identification glasses) that the identification process resulted only in a mechanical process of right click -> identify -> use x -> that, after a while was merely tedious. Moreover, in many cases it was also silly: my lvl 20 rogue founded the 4800th Acid Arrow of his life and he needed something in order to identify it.. really?!

Therefore I suppose that they removed it because they just assumed that you, as an adventurer, should have already some way to identify the majority of the magic items that you find. I am not saying that it is a good thing but just that it's not easy to find the right balance between realism and the desire to avoid superfluous tasks for the players.

 

There is a very easy fix for this, and that is to classify what constitutes as a "special" or unique item. Special items should be special -meaning rare. I have said this before and I will say it again, I greatly enjoy getting to do a quest for some super terrific gear. I think most epic gear you get should be through a quest. That gives the items a back story so you really know what you are getting. I will also say that I don't mind having to identify certain items, but it should be something that you don't have to do all the time, obviously. If there is a quest that tells you only a little about the item you are retrieving, then I can see where identifying the item would be necessary. Bar finding a unique item on every other corpse and I don't have a problem with it, but yes, If I have to identify the same item more than once, that'sa problem.

[Realmzmaster]

In most crpgs that I played with unidentified items once the item had been identified others of the same type are automatically identified. So if a mage, scroll or lore identified the item as an acid arrow then all unidentified arrows that are acid arrows become identified.

As I stated before it makes no sense that the party would know the entire back history of the item simply from picking it up. The same with rare or unique items dropped by the enemy. How does the party know that the mage was carrying the Staff of the Void and its detailed related history?

 

At least with lore checks, identification scrolls or spells or taking it to an expert on items of that type there is an in games reason for the reveal of history and properties.

[MaxQuartiroli]

In most crpgs that I played with unidentified items once the item had been identified others of the same type are automatically identified. So if a mage, scroll or lore identified the item as an acid arrow then all unidentified arrows that are acid arrows become identified.

 

IWD2, which I finished some days ago, is the culprit.

In addition to the "lack of memory" for already-known items you have also to deal with separate inventory for each character. This means that everytime I had to move all the not-recognized items to my mage inventory, identify all of them (either with spells/or thanks to arcane knowledge) and then redistribute all of them either to some other character or into the magic bags. Considering the limited size of individual inventory sometimes I had to to do this multiple times.

 

Trust me, it has really been a  pain in the ***.

[Realmzmaster]

IWD2, which I finished some days ago, is the culprit.

In addition to the "lack of memory" for already-known items you have also to deal with separate inventory for each character. This means that everytime I had to move all the not-recognized items to my mage inventory, identify all of them (either with spells/or thanks to arcane knowledge) and then redistribute all of them either to some other character or into the magic bags. Considering the limited size of individual inventory sometimes I had to to do this multiple times.

 

Trust me, it has really been a  pain in the ***.

 

Played IWD2 several times. Never had felt that way.  I also sold anything I did not need. So the magic bags only carried essential items i could not fit in that members inventory. My mage did not carry much so the mage help carry arrows for the rogue along with the mage's sling and bullets +1 and +2..