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[Gervaise]

So Solas claims to have made the Veil, although we have no idea how he discovered how to do this or how he achieved it on his own (if he did).  Something that puzzles me about this is what things can affect the Veil.   In particular we have always been told that large amounts of death in a location will appreciably thin the Veil in that area, so that it makes it far easier for spirits to pass through into the world from the Fade.    This is particularly true in the Brecillian Forest, which is said to have been the site of a great battle in the past and where there are many spirits that have found their way through; hence the sylvans and the Poet Tree.   Whether this is due to the amount of blood spilled or the strong emotions released at death is not clear.   However, it is known that a large blood magic sacrifice is also capable of breaching the Veil.  

 

Which makes me wonder; what exactly is the Veil?   Why is it affected in this way?   Originally it was something that had always been in existence, so it was partly understandable about magic thinning it in places.   However, if it is a physical barrier that has been created by Solas why does death/blood sacrifice have this affect on it?   Wouldn't he have ensured that his "prison" was fool proof?   (Although I have to admit that Solas tends to show remarkably little foresight; hence not anticipating the effect it would have on the elves or considering that giving his orb to Cory might be a bad idea).

[Pokemario]

The Veil isn't technically a physical barrier, it's more like a magical vibration that repels the Fade.

[Arshei]

This time I prefer to side with Sera that the fade was always there and Solas is crazy because he drank too much tea.

If the veil was created by him, why only certain people can born mage?

[Dai Grepher]

I don't think it was ever described as a physical barrier. Even "Veil" is considered technically incorrect. Possible dialogue with Bull has the Arcane Knowledge Inquisitor state that the Veil isn't a physical barrier but rather a magical vibration that repels the Fade. A book near Dorian's location in Skyhold states that the Veil is like having your eyes closed and seeing the same thing constantly, and the Veil removed would be like opening your eyes to a world in motion.

 

I think of the Veil in more abstract terms. It is the boundary between thought and reality. It is a gap made of energy. Where this gap is thin, thought can be seen or even interacted with. Soldier's Peak, the Gauntlet, the elven ruins, etc.

 

In some places the Fade can be brought into the real, like in the Blackmarsh where we run into barriers being maintained by desire demons.

 

People's minds can move through the Veil in dreams, with lyrium, or with powerful spells (like Sloth's, or the one bestowed on the First by the Mother). Dwarves are more Real oriented, so their dreams don't take them to the Fade. They need powerful spells to reach the Fade with their minds.

[nightscrawl]

I've never liked Solas's example of spirits being around you, like a fast-flowing river, or whatever nonsense it is he says. I generally dislike metaphors in explanation and prefer people to be direct. Part of the problem is the language used, such as referring to one "passing through the Veil." Even in this codex, where the author derides the notion of the Veil as a physical barrier, he uses the same language.

 

So, I look on the Fade as not a place one goes, but as another plane of existence that is currently alongside our own plane. The Veil is a shroud that prevents us from seeing this other plane and the beings that live there. When we dream, or when mages make a special effort, they see through this shroud (the Veil) and the Fade is revealed.

 

The visual concept of the Breach is also somewhat confusing. It is a literal hole in the sky, a "breach" in the Veil between our world and the Fade. We see demons rain down from it like meteors falling from space. Such visuals give the idea that the Fade is in actuality some other world, which is not the case.

 

It could be that the creation of the Veil created the Fade and the mundane world as separate entities where they had not existed as such before. Let's say that, before the creation of the Veil, everyone saw the world as as some snakes sees it; that is, able to detect and "see" the heat emanating from bodies as infrared vision. The creation of the Veil made these visual wavelengths invisible to the eye, but they are still there. Before the Veil, the entire world existed in that way, but after the Veil, only the Fade exists in that way.

[Secret Rare]

The Veil isn't technically a physical barrier, it's more like a magical vibration that repels the Fade.

Ok now we have the strings theory in Thedas ,it all make sense.

The whole fade concept confuse me to no end ,can i reach the space from the fade?

[Ashagar]

no but apparently you could reach the afterlife as apparently the souls of the dead pass though the fade to a unknown destination according to the spirits and the chantry claims the maker lies beyond the fade and the faithful will be called to his side. Of course there is also the whole issue of the void which also lies beyond the fade and apparently is not a very nice place.

[Secret Rare]

no but apparently you could reach the afterlife as apparently the souls of the dead pass though the fade to a unknown destination according to the spirits and the chantry claims the maker lies beyond the fade and the faithful will be called to his side. Of course there is also the whole issue of the void which also lies beyond the fade and apparently is not a very nice place.

It may be what spirits believe because it is what they learnt from mortals , for all we know souls can simply be consumed into the fade

[Big I]

This time I prefer to side with Sera that the fade was always there and Solas is crazy because he drank too much tea.

If the veil was created by him, why only certain people can born mage?

 

Before Solas made the Veil everyone (all elves, anyway) were mages. It's why he compares the present day to living in a world of Tranquil.

 

Even before the Veil the Fade and the physical world were separate; there are codex entries referencing the Forbidden Ones fleeing the physical world during the elven war with the Titans, for example. The Veil just made it impossible to freely travel from one to the other.

[Secret Rare]

Before Solas made the Veil everyone (all elves, anyway) were mages. It's why he compares the present day to living in a world of Tranquil.

 

Even before the Veil the Fade and the physical world were separate; there are codex entries referencing the Forbidden Ones fleeing the physical world during the elven war with the Titans, for example. The Veil just made it impossible to freely travel from one to the other.

Which lead to the assumption that Solas did not created the veil  but used it or reinforced it to seal the Evanuris

[Ieldra]

I see the Veil as a permanent global effect that affects the perception of people. If it were not there, people could naturally see the insubstantial aspects of the world, the ever-changing landscape created by people's thoughts and emotions, cultural memes and spirits. As things are now, only people with a special ability to tune their awareness can see those things and interact with them voluntarily.

The difference between the old world - pre-Veil - and the new one is that in the old world, you would see the insubstantial aspect (I'll continue to call it the Fade) naturally and had to make an effort to tune it out. In the new world, it's the other way round.

By innate disposition, some people have more of a natural ability to tune their awareness than others. Those are the people who have more control over their interaction with the Fade. It is not clear if that had any practical effect in the old world, but it seems possible that those with little control were prone to insanity. In the new world, the ones with better control are considered mageborn, though it's possible that everyone else except the Tranquil retains a little of that as well, only not enough to be of practical use without extreme levels of training.

The Veil is a global effect that affects the perception of people, but it can be of a different strength in different areas. Where the effect has holes, portals form. Portals are not doors, but simply areas where the effect of the Veil is weakened or nullified.

The Veil is also two-sided and equivalent. Wherever it impairs people's awareness of the Fade, it also impairs spirits' awareness of the physical world.

[Force of the North]

These two worlds of the fade and the mundane world be better explain as Plato's Cave Allegory? click here for a quick explanation of what that is.

 

 

Our world being the world within the cave only seeing shadows of what use to be and the "real world" being the world before the veil?

[Gervaise]

The bit that confuses me is that it hasn't always been that way.   I understood the alternate dimension aspect of it in DAO and DA2.   There I assumed the large number of violent deaths making it thinner wasn't so much the physical reality of the Veil but the way it attracted spirits/demons, so they were pushing against it in such great numbers that eventually they forced their way through.  

 

It is how it works when there was originally no barrier and now there is one that confuses me.   The hint is that Skyhold is so named because that is where Solas may have carried out his action.   The literal translation was the place where the sky was held back.    It's like the Fade is now a literal heaven above the earth, not parallel to it.   The original trailer to DAI also made more sense in that there the Veil was shown as tearing open from side to side, not simply a big hole.    The smaller rifts do seem more in keeping with the old lore but it is still something of a puzzle.  

 

How could Cole have come through in the first place and manifested as something material?    How can Imshael walk about quite happily in human form (rather like Cole) but also is quite happy to possess someone?    Previously when spirits/demons came through and moved around the world they were very visibly not natives of the place unless they had found a vessel to possess, whether living or dead.       Also spirits/demons can read minds, apparently nothing is hidden from them, which is slightly worrying, nor is distance a problem since Cole can sense the thoughts of people far away in Tevinter and Par Vollen.   Imshael also claimed to be able to ensure that people alter documents and have their memories altered so that Michel's identity would never be discovered in the future.   I have to feel that was the truth because of what Cole can do.      So how often has this been done in the past?

 

I realise the bit about spirits isn't entirely connected with the Veil but it does have a relevance in that the nature of reality in Thedas does seem to have taken on a new dimension since the good old days of DAO.    Time magic is technically possible (you just need to have sufficient power to do so), it is possible to remove the Veil altogether and spirits can walk in and out of our minds seemingly at will, change them and then make us forget.

[In Exile]

I've never liked Solas's example of spirits being around you, like a fast-flowing river, or whatever nonsense it is he says. I generally dislike metaphors in explanation and prefer people to be direct. Part of the problem is the language used, such as referring to one "passing through the Veil." Even in this codex, where the author derides the notion of the Veil as a physical barrier, he uses the same language.

So, I look on the Fade as not a place one goes, but as another plane of existence that is currently alongside our own plane. The Veil is a shroud that prevents us from seeing this other plane and the beings that live there. When we dream, or when mages make a special effort, they see through this shroud (the Veil) and the Fade is revealed.

The visual concept of the Breach is also somewhat confusing. It is a literal hole in the sky, a "breach" in the Veil between our world and the Fade. We see demons rain down from it like meteors falling from space. Such visuals give the idea that the Fade is in actuality some other world, which is not the case.

It could be that the creation of the Veil created the Fade and the mundane world as separate entities where they had not existed as such before. Let's say that, before the creation of the Veil, everyone saw the world as as some snakes sees it; that is, able to detect and "see" the heat emanating from bodies as infrared vision. The creation of the Veil made these visual wavelengths invisible to the eye, but they are still there. Before the Veil, the entire world existed in that way, but after the Veil, only the Fade exists in that way.

The Fade existed. Solas described it as something that was part of the world (not a place one went). Everything we learn about his plot to create the veil is that he wanted to create a prison for the Evanuris. The answer is clearly that he trapped more than just the Evanuris - he trapped the very nature of the world there. And likely in a pocket elven dimension.

[CardButton]

Welp I suppose we could gander back at some DA2 events for some enlightenment?  Sandal's prophecy could be referring to whatever plan Solas has for the removal of the Veil.  "One day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part, and the skies will open wide ... When he rises, everyone will see."   Lets assume that the "he" he was referring to was Solas for the moment.

 

If we take the idea of the Magic Coming back as the removal of the Veil bringing the full force of magical influence created by the Fade coming back to the physical world, then lets assume that perhaps the "The Shadows will part, and the skies will open wide" section is referring to the Veil being removed and the Fade being revealed.  Could this mean that the Fade to some degree was visible from the surface of the world before the Veil?  Like a skyline above the skyline, unreachable by conventional methods but still very much there.  The Veil would then be a skin separating the layers of the onion that is Thedas from one another.  Regardless of the belief in the Maker, perhaps this is where the story of the Golden City originates. If whatever that place is (and now that the idea of the Veil never existing comes into play I personally very much doubt it has anything to do with the Maker) was visible to the Human race before the creation of the Veil then perhaps they incorporated it into their legends of the Maker, because to them that unreachable golden palace would be where a divine being could sit.   

 

What the "Golden City" is is a separate matter/theory to be discussed at another time though.

[In Exile]

I see the Veil as a permanent global effect that affects the perception of people. If it were not there, people could naturally see the insubstantial aspects of the world, the ever-changing landscape created by people's thoughts and emotions, cultural memes and spirits. As things are now, only people with a special ability to tune their awareness can see those things and interact with them voluntarily.

The difference between the old world - pre-Veil - and the new one is that in the old world, you would see the insubstantial aspect (I'll continue to call it the Fade) naturally and had to make an effort to tune it out. In the new world, it's the other way round.

By innate disposition, some people have more of a natural ability to tune their awareness than others. Those are the people who have more control over their interaction with the Fade. It is not clear if that had any practical effect in the old world, but it seems possible that those with little control were prone to insanity. In the new world, the ones with better control are considered mageborn, though it's possible that everyone else except the Tranquil retains a little of that as well, only not enough to be of practical use without extreme levels of training.

The Veil is a global effect that affects the perception of people, but it can be of a different strength in different areas. Where the effect has holes, portals form. Portals are not doors, but simply areas where the effect of the Veil is weakened or nullified.

The Veil is also two-sided and equivalent. Wherever it impairs people's awareness of the Fade, it also impairs spirits' awareness of the physical world.

This doesn't quite woek because the Fade is now a physical place. And everything we learn in the library talks about how there was an actual separation is consistent with the Fade being a feature of the world that was locked away and is being kept back by the Veil.

[Heimdall]

This doesn't quite woek because the Fade is now a physical place. And everything we learn in the library talks about how there was an actual separation is consistent with the Fade being a feature of the world that was locked away and is being kept back by the Veil.

The issue that confuses this idea for me is that codex in Trespasser that talks about exploring the deepest parts of the Fade.

The pages of this book—memory?—are instructions on how to reach the deepest parts of the Fade, realms so far removed they're unmarked by Dreamers:

"Epiphany requires a mind smooth as mirror glass, still as stone. Put aside ten years for practice, and the next hundred for searching. What others have learned will ease your journey. Those who never manifested outside the Fade will find it easier to find its stillest roots, but it is rare the compulsion overtakes our brethren of the air."

This might just be a difficulty of language, but its described as something with physicality in the sense of having different places and depths. The Fade is spoken of as something separable from the rest of the world and spirits can inhabit without ever touching the rest of the world.

[CardButton]

The issue that confuses this idea for me is that codex in Trespasser that talks about exploring the deepest parts of the Fade.

This might just be a difficulty of language, but its described as something with physicality in the sense of having different places and depths. The Fade is spoken of as something separable from the rest of the world and spirits can inhabit without ever touching the rest of the world.

If that "memory" was "written" by an Elf, "instructions on how to reach the deepest parts of the Fade, realms so far removed they're unmarked by Dreamers", but the people who dream in Modern Thedas (Elves, Humans, Qunari ...) don't remain on Thedas when they dream they go into the Fade.  

 

If even now the surface of Modern Thedas remains unmarked by dreamers and the people who live below the surface (even deeper) don't dream at all (AKA the Darkspawn and the Dwarves) then ... OMG! The deepest parts of the Fade is Thedas?!  The Fade isn't the sky of modern Thedas, Thedas is ocean floor of the Fade!  The different sub-dimensions like the Shattered Library and the Crossroads are simply locations located at different depths within that Ocean, above the floor that is Thedas but below the Surface that is the Fade!  

 

That is some abstract **** right there, very Eureka Seven in style LOL.  "The current surface of the world wasn't always that world's surface."  Its certainly possible.  "The Descent" made the world of Thedas bigger by going down, perhaps the Fade will make it bigger by going up?

[Dai Grepher]

No, I think the deepest parts of the Fade are the actual Fade. The evanuris were looking at the place the Forbidden Ones fled to as the furthest reaches of the Fade because they perceived themselves as being in the Fade already. In fact they were in the Crossroads dimension. The furthest reaches of the Fade required one of two things. Either powerful magic to walk there physically (as Falon'Din is rumored to have done, or as the Magisters Sidereal did), or taking spirit form to exist there naturally (as we do in Origins).

 

The Forbidden Ones fled there to escape the earth, which I assume is a reference to the titans.

 

Also there is a memory in the Vir Dirthara of a lecture given by a spirit. The spirit states that the real world requires a special kind of approach in order to change it. The spirit explains that the Real has laws that govern what things do and how they react. So this proves that even during the times of the evanuris, the Real existed as its own place, separate from the Fade and the Crossroads.

[Gervaise]

I do not deny that they were separate realms but previously we understood the barrier that prevented passing between them physically had always existed and that of course (according to Andraste) it was the great sin of mankind that they went against his prohibition and entered the Fade.    Even then it didn't stay open for long and they were burped back out again.    That was why Cory wanted the anchor, to enable him to stay in the Fade once he had opened the way.   After all he knew very well how to get in without the need of eluvians or orbs; you simply need to kill enough people in one place.    What he was lacking was the means to stay there once he had opened the way.

 

However, Solas now says that the barrier that prevents our entry is the unnatural thing that he put in place.   The normal state of affairs would be to walk from one to the other, or is that only true of spirits passing between the realms and even in the past the mortal creatures of Thedas were not permitted to walk in the Fade?   Since it seems likely that the elves were originally spirits that took on mortal bodies, this may well be the case as they could move backwards and forwards between the two because of their spiritual nature, but other creatures, including humans could not.    However, our entire party went with us physically into the Fade and we were able to leave Hawke or Stroud there without the anchor.    So it would appear it is possible not only to get into the Fade but stay there.

 

In Hushed Whispers the world and the Fade were said to have started to bleed into one another; it did not look good.   Was that because it wasn't a clean sweep of the Veil but a gradual erosion?      It certainly didn't look like fiery chaos but simply hell on earth, with only very few survivors from the demon hoards inside Redcliffe Castle.   Where were all the "good" spirits?     The faith spirit inside Wynne was pretty kick ass against demons and hope spirits are meant to be even stronger.    So had all these spirits simply "died" because everyone had lost their faith and their hope?    

 

Every time I think about the Fade aspects of the plots in the main game and DLC, I just find it more confusing and contradictory.