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[CardButton]

Mostly I base this assumption/theory on a combination of my attempts to quantify Solas' and Abelas' strange behavior (not dickish, it is genuinely strange their choice of words and actions) towards modern Thedas and its people; and the difference in how the Crossroads in "Trespasser" are perceived differently for a Dalish Inquisitor and Sera.

 

For everyone else the Crossroads looks much the same as when the Inquisitor first went there. It's a grey smoky/misty area with many undefined features, but if you go into the Crossroads (a place closer the the Fade) with a Dalish Quizzy you see that place in a much more vibrant and colorful way.  It is apparently even more so for Sera who complains that the brightness of the Crossroads is actually hurting her eyes.  Presumably this is because of the Elves intrinsic link to the Fade and the Crossroads closer proximity to it.  Now imagine for a moment what that place would have looked like to an Ancient Elvhen (who apparently were immensely connected to the Fade) like Solas and Abelas? Granted there eyes are probably used to it, but that place must have looked amazing ... if not somewhat seizure inducing. 

 

Now bare with me for a moment ... what if the reverse were true for how the Ancient Elvhen perceive Modern Thedas (which unlike their world is disconnected from the Fade by the Veil)?  What if it is actually worse for them than the original crossroads looked to us, since they presumably would be more sensitive to what the Crossroads looked like.  Remember how Abelas responds to a Dalish inquisitor when they ask for the Ancient Elvhen of the temple of Mythal to help their people?  "Our people? The ones we see in the forest, shadows wearing Vallaslin? You are not my people!"  What if he wasn't saying that to be a dick, but was being absolutely literal.  Combine this with the little nugget of info you get from Cole after Solas ends the relationship with Lavellan "Your real, and it means everyone could be real.  It changes everything, but it cant" it brings about some pretty interesting implications.

 

What if the remaining Ancient Elvhen like Solas and Abelas see Modern Thedas in the same way (or worse) as we see the Crossroads initially?  How much would that screw up someones perceptions of the world?  Dark, greyscale, full of fog and mist, undefined.  It would be like walking in a dream or moving into a dark room after being surrounded for hours by Bright Light.  What if its so bad that even people are perceived in this un-concrete way?  Presumably the Dalish Inquisitor and Sera would be easier to define due to their Elven heritage, but still in the end "shadows".  It would explain a lot about their actions and behaviors and why Solas can only be romanced by an Elf and explain how he could convince himself that Modern Thedas wasn't real.  

 

Just a weird thought I had and your perfectly welcome to say its silly, but to me it would be another explanation as to why the Ancient Elvhen civilization seemed to collapse so damned quickly after the Veil went up.  Their literal light was taken from them along with their immortality and this would certainly change the meaning when Solas says he intends to destroy your world to bring back his.   

[robertmarilyn]

What you say could be true but I do wish Solas would be forward thinking enough to realize that even though this new "inferior" world is not to his liking, that it still has meaning and value to the people who live in it now. These shadows are still living beings with families and lives that mean everything to them. 

 

I know Solas is devastated for the loss of what once was, all because of what he did. But life has moved on while he slept and he shouldn't wipe that life out because of his bad judgement. What you say does put into perspective what Solas is seeing now and how it could make him so sad for what was lost (thanks to what he did in the past). 

[CardButton]

What you say could be true but I do wish Solas would be forward thinking enough to realize that even though this new "inferior" world is not to his liking, that it still has meaning and value to the people who live in it now. These shadows are still living beings with families and lives that mean everything to them. 

 

I know Solas is devastated for the loss of what once was, all because of what he did. But life has moved on while he slept and he shouldn't wipe that life out because of his bad judgement. What you say does put into perspective what Solas is seeing now and how it could make him so sad for what was lost (thanks to what he did in the past). 

LOL but when has Solas ever been "forward thinking"?    His focus has always been on the past and the shame/guilt he feels for his actions.  I refer to dear Uncle Iroh in reference to Solas "Pride".  "Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.  True humility is the only antidote for shame."  We gotta Humble that baldy if he hope to make any progress with him (save him from himself), or you could just kill him.

[robertmarilyn]

Yeah, forward thinking and Solas do not go together. 

[CardButton]

Yeah, forward thinking and Solas do not go together. 

Hmm ... weird thought about the "whole destruction of the world" thing.  That is a pretty vague method of saying something.  What world are you destroying Solas? A cultural world, a political world, the world of a child, the literal world?  Thinking along similar lines as those above, perhaps Solas simply meant he would be destroying the world that exists without the Veil.  If we reverse what happened to his world when he created the Veil, the world went dark when the Fade was removed for the Elvhen peoples, then presumably the reverse would happen for the peoples of modern Thedas (after all all the other races see that grey-scale world when they enter the Crossroads).  

 

In a strange sense he isn't saying he'll kill all the people of modern Thedas, for all we know in the short term the death-toll could be relatively minor.  Instead, ironically, he's willing to sentence the people of Modern Thedas to a similar grey-scale, undefined "dream" that he currently finds himself in and the one that (if my theory holds any water) helped attribute to quickness of the fall of the Elvhen.  If that is the case it also helps my suspicions that he has no intention of saving the modern elves but re-creating an environment in which the remainder of the Ancient Elvhen race can once again thrive. (If Abelas and his ilk exist there is every possibility of more bastions of their species continued existence "sleeping, masked in a mirror" as Cole so eloquently put it, for Solas considers it to cruel a punishment to wake them with the way Thedas is now.  

 

I'm not excusing his behavior or actions in any way, but I could at least understand his desperation a bit more if his intent was an attempt to "save" the remainder of those he considers to be his people.  The very same people condemned to the Purgatory he now finds himself if he does nothing.  

[greenbrownblue]

Just a weird thought I had and your perfectly welcome to say its silly, but to me it would be another explanation as to why the Ancient Elvhen civilization seemed to collapse so damned quickly after the Veil went up.  Their literal light was taken from them along with their immortality and this would certainly change the meaning when Solas says he intends to destroy your world to bring back his.   

I do not quite understand what you meant by "if you go into the Crossroads with a Dalish Quizzy you see that place in a much more vibrant and colorful way" . I do like the idea that it could look differently to everybody, because in the quest "Here Lies The Abyss" everybody's fear was enbodied in a different way and according to Solas it is the memory that shapes the Fade, but...  It does not shape the mortal world (it is the other way around). So I highly doubt it could be perceived differently. Also, during the final scene Solas talks about the Shattered Library  and he perceives it as "destroyed" place (jump to 6:15 in the vid) . Finally, no matter if ur Inquis is a Qunari or an Elf, the Crossroads are identical.



EDIT: Ok, the Crossroads do not look identical ! My bad.

[CardButton]

I do not quite understand what you meant by "if you go into the Crossroads with a Dalish Quizzy you see that place in a much more vibrant and colorful way" . I do like the idea that it could look differently to everybody, because in the quest "Here Lies The Abyss" everybody's fear was enbodied in a different way and according to Solas it is the memory that shapes the Fade, but...  It does not shape the mortal world (it is the other way around). So I highly doubt it could be perceived differently. Also, during the final scene Solas talks about the Shattered Library  and he perceives it as "destroyed" place (jump to 6:15 in the vid) . Finally, no matter if ur Inquis is a Qunari or an Elf, the Crossroads are identical.

"If you go into the Crossroads with a Dalish Quizzy you see that place in a much more vibrant and colorful way".    This is what I mean hwe-hwe-hwe!

[greenbrownblue]

"If you go into the Crossroads with a Dalish Quizzy you see that place in a much more vibrant and colorful way".    This is what I mean hwe-hwe-hwe!

Daaaaang it, I feel like a fool. I went through this place as both a human and an elf and I did not realize it actually looked different (like: ON THE SCREEN DIFFERENT). I see now. Thanks for pointing this out ^^ ! 

So do only the crossroads look different? What about the shattered library?

[Dai Grepher]

Nope, the Vir Dirthara looks the same to an elf. BioWare being lazy again.

 

I think it's just as simple as Solas thinking that restoring the old world will be better than the current one. Maybe he thinks that the current world will be preserved in its beauty (nature), but the people will not survive in the new world. He thinks it will be like the Crossroads, and the current inhabitants will not know how to shape that world. Then the Crossroads worlds will be restored, and an even more beautiful world will blossom from the elvhen who will be freed from wherever they are trapped or wherever they are undergoing uthenera. Meanwhile, the "evil" people of the world will burn in the raw chaos along with the good.

 

Solas probably also thinks that the female elf Inquisitor will just end up growing old and dying. Leaving him alone. So he ends it there because he knows she can't be ageless. I believe that's also one of reasons he doesn't take her with him.

 

Of course, I don't think this will go as Solas plans. Tevinter will thrive if the Veil drops around them. Their magic will become more powerful. The southern nations have their own mages as well. Also, the Veil will not drop completely. It will only drop in the areas where the elvhen lived during the days of the evanuris. Also, non-mages will not burn in any chaos. Many people will because they won't be able to get food or fight demons, but as a whole, humans will survive through unity and cooperation. Strong people like the Hero of Ferelden will "fly" as Flemeth eludes to in DA2. Consider the fact that the Hero can learn to be an Arcane Warrior from the spirit trapped in the crystal even if the Hero is not a mage. Also consider Spirit Warriors and templars. Legionnaire Scouts also. Most Heroes will excel in such a world.

 

So it will be war between the Crossroads and the Real. The old gods and titans might rise as well, but I think the evanuris will definitely be released. Some will have been weakened by uthenera, but I'm willing to bet that Elgar'nan and Falon'Din remained awake for millennia, keeping their powers in peak condition.

[Aren]

Nothing that a good pair of glasses can't resolve.
Tell that to Solas and Abelas.

[Aren]

What you say could be true but I do wish Solas would be forward thinking enough to realize that even though this new "inferior" world is not to his liking, that it still has meaning and value to the people who live in it now. These shadows are still living beings with families and lives that mean everything to them.

I don't think that Solas and Abelas care about what the actual people value and care they want their world back (like Cory) and will be more than happy to destroy this world.

[CardButton]

I don't think that Solas and Abelas care about what the actual people value and care they want their world back (like Cory) and will be more than happy to destroy this world.

I don't know if happy is the right word, but I would say that at least Solas considers it acceptable to some degree.  He's expecting the crashing of the Veil to result in a similar destruction of the populations of the Thedas, just as the creation of the Veil destroyed his civilization ... I guess we'll have to see if he's right?  We'll see if the people's of modern Thedas are as unable to adapt as his people were to a shift in their reality.

[Wren]

In the Masked Empire book, humans also suffer fatique and extreme discomfort while in the crossroads.  Time also feels as if it's going more slowly for them there as well.  So, if your theory were true, I wonder how ancient elves experience the veiled world physically.

[Dai Grepher]

The fatigue/disorientation thing might get tossed. It's never mentioned during Inquisition or Trespasser. Even if it stays, humans can still fight in that dimension. Gaspard and Michael duel in the Crossroads. Plus, this could also just be caused by the Veil. With the Veil removed in those Crossroads areas, it might allow humans to function normally, even if they can't see the stupid flowers.

[CardButton]

The fatigue/disorientation thing might get tossed. It's never mentioned during Inquisition or Trespasser. Even if it stays, humans can still fight in that dimension. Gaspard and Michael duel in the Crossroads. Plus, this could also just be caused by the Veil. With the Veil removed in those Crossroads areas, it might allow humans to function normally, even if they can't see the stupid flowers.

I think what Wren is getting at is that not only is the Cross-roads visually different for non-elves, but it also effects them negatively in a physical way, so the assumption is that if my theory holds any water at all is that it could mean that not only is Veiled Thedas potentially being perceived differently by the Ancient Elvhen, but it may also come with some rather severe physical complications or discomfort as well?    

[Dai Grepher]

Eh, I would think Solas would have mentioned that if that had been the case. But it is obvious that they don't exist in the Real as they used to.

[CardButton]

Eh, I would think Solas would have mentioned that if that had been the case. But it is obvious that they don't exist in the Real as they used to.

To be fair Solas hasn't been the most forthcoming person with information, especially regarding himself. 

[greenbrownblue]

In the Masked Empire book, humans also suffer fatique and extreme discomfort while in the crossroads.  Time also feels as if it's going more slowly for them there as well.  So, if your theory were true, I wonder how ancient elves experience the veiled world physically.

Duuuuude, I gotta read that masked empire. It's the last DA book I have not read.

[CardButton]

OMG! Between me spitballing ideas on here and on the "The Nature of Veil" thread I may have just figured out Thedas LOL! 

 

Allright I think we've been trying to many traditional fantasy elements from Thedas for our own good, and it was actually the addition of Cole into my Theory that gave me this idea.  In many fantasy stories there is the idea of progenitor races, races that proceeded the races we know today (essentially those races original ancestors).  What if we applied this rule to Dragon Age and Thedas?  

 

First lets separate the world of Dragon Age into different levels.  At the highest level there is the Fade (the land of Abstract Thought "Dreams", freedom and where magic flows around like the Air).  At the lowest level is the Titans (the lands of the tangible, communal-ism (hive mind), where magic is solidified into crystal "Lyrium").  In between there is a number of Layers but in general they can be called what we consider "Thedas". Now lets add the races (excluding Darkspawn as they are an abnormality, probably as a result of a forced direct mixture of principles of the highest and lowest regions of Thedas, the Fade and the Titans).  The races we've perceived in current Thedas/Fade/Titans are: Spirits/Demons, Elves, Avaar, Humans, Qunari, Dwarves, and the Sha'Brytol.  

 

My theory here is this, what if "Thedas" and the only race that developed there naturally was the progenitor race of Humanity (and the Avvar because due to their striking similarities to Humans I'm assuming their spawned from that same Progenitor race, perhaps closer to it?) is the center of mass for this whole scenario and naturally draws the denizens of the Abstract and Tangible to it like a magnet (They seek balance)?  The closer your people get towards that center of mass, the closer to human you become as that is the natural form of the offspring of "Thedas".  So I postulate that the issues with the Elves is that their origin isn't Thedas at all, but instead the Fade and the Ancient Elvhen are intrinsically different to their modern counterparts because like the Avvar and the Sha'Brytol they are closer in composition to their progenitor race than Modern Elves (Spirits).  What if the original Elvhen were much like Cole, Spirits drawn to the center of mass "Thedas" and became physical reflections of the species that already exist there "Humans" (or whatever Humans looked like that far back)?

 

In short Elves originate from the Fade, their progenitors are Spirits.  Dwarves originate from the Titans, their progenitors were something close to the Sha'Brytol or Golems.  Humans/Avvar origin is "Thedas" and are the people who spawned on its surface.  Finally, basing this off the discussion you have with Bull about the Qunari and their physical similarities to Dragons, the progenitors of the Qunari origins were the skies above "Thedas" and their Progenitors were the Dragons/Dragon Gods (they have a reverence for Dragons, like Dragons their females hold the power, they have thick scale-like skin and Drakes (male Dragons) don't have wings).  This certainly would explain why the most successful races after the sealing of the Fade by the Veil and the hibernation of the Titans are Humanity and the Qunari, because that is where they originate from. Two species excelling in the environment that created them, its as simple as that. 

[Dai Grepher]

But Solas would have mentioned it in the ending conversation, in which he was being forthcoming.

 

Avvar is a class of human, not a race.

 

Great Dragons are male, and have wings.

 

Humans are spirits also, it's just that they are described as having a soul (having a developed consciousness). So a human is a spirit and a body of flesh. I think what you're getting at here is a creation story. Assuming the Maker didn't do it, I think it's unknown if spirits are able to take physical form. But they may have, and if so it isn't known how they did it. They may have manifested their own bodies, or they may have derived them from the titans. Using their lyrium blood to cause the material world to form flesh.

 

Solas told human Cole he didn't think to see spirit become flesh, implying he had at least heard of it happening before.

 

OGB Kieran also states something along the lines of wondering why the elves wished to look that way. Implying that spirits chose how they would appear.

 

Trespasser also implies the titans made bodies of flesh. So perhaps the collective consciousness of a titan created physical bodies. Perhaps the spirits warred with the titans to discover the secret of how to create flesh.

 

Maybe creating flesh from spirit energy will be explored in DA4, especially if it involves the Inquisitor's lost arm?

[Gervaise]

With regard to Solas' conversation with Cole, he may have meant he didn't expect to see a spirit manifest in that way after the raising of the Veil, because he thought it was no longer possible, rather than he had never seen it before.  

 

There does indeed seem to be some indication that spirits in some way could control how they looked, at least in the pre-Veil days.   The Forbidden Ones were accused of shedding their material form in order to flee back into the Fade and away from the battle the Evanuris were engaged in.   Another individual was accused of taking the form reserved for the gods and their followers, which is heavily implied to be that of a dragon.   So Kieran, who was originally a dragon god, might well wonder why you didn't choose the form of dragon instead.  

 

In the past the Fade and the material world were two separate realms but with no barrier between them and spirits could seemingly come and go as they pleased.    However, it would seem that some chose to take on a more material form.    It may be that they had already observed primitive humans and that is where they got their idea for appearance from but these may well have been no more than cave men and possibly even in some other land across the sea.    Hence the elves being unchallenged on mainland Thedas for many thousands of years before the arrival of the Neromenians by ship.   

 

I suspect the war with the Titans was probably sparked by the movement of the Titan causing earthquakes that damaged the realm of the elves, possibly after the elves went exploring under the surface of Thedas and encountered primitive dwarves.