361 réponses à ce sujet

[AlleyD]

If practicality is the issue, there really are only two options, imo.

 

Wormhole - A nice one-way ticket ride to Andromeda without needing a whole lot of "Science!" explanation.  

 

Cryogenic Storage - Any conventional means of travel will require some explanation of how they plan to power a ship for the 1000s of years it takes to get there at far greater speeds than has been currently used in the game.   Since 1000s of years are going to pass, then obviously the entire living complement of the ship is going to have to be suspended.   Without that suspension of "time" they are going to have to spend half the game explaining why there was no progression aboard the ship.

 

 

I disagree that a wormhole is a practical solution to making the traverse between MW and Andromeda.

 

 A quick Google search on Wormholes mostly brings up the opinions of Kip Thorne who states that wormholes capable of transporting a human through it are "forbidden" by physical laws. The problem is keeping the Wormhole stable would require massive transfers of negative energy and this isn't believed to possible in any known natural event. Wormholes are justifiable, but only as supranatural events generated by an entity capable of manipulating energies on a Kardashevian scale far beyond the Reapers or Leviathans.

 

Creating plausible story scenarios that refugees from the MW could co-exist in the same galaxy as such beings is problematic.

 

 

Find me the scientific articles explaining how eezo works. What are Kip Thorne's thoughts on biotics?

 

FYI, trying to apply real-world scientific theory to Mass Effect is a very foolish thing to do. 

 

OK, I think you may have missed the original post I was trying to reply to "A nice one-way ticket ride to Andromeda without needing a whole lot of "Science!" explanation. "

 

I quoted Kip Thorne because of his links with the last major Hollywood blockbuster that used a Wormhole as a plot device:- Interstellar. I was attempting to state how much of an issue it was for the creative team to justify the Science Fiction behind a wormhole plot device and have the audience accept it as plausible.  It might be practical device to write, but maybe not so simple to justify in the pre-existing lore of the MEU and I believe that this brand's history should have illustrated what can happen when writers do not apply necessary support or justify major plot devices.

 

BioWare adopted different approaches to embedding/justifying the necessary space magic for a Sci-Fi across the franchise history.  The stuff you mention- EEZO, Biotics etc - were embedded in the world building and lore of ME 1 with a greater level of detail and care than later plot devices in ME2 and ME3 which were virtually unexplained and far more speculative. In retrospect of ME3 and its resultant social media maelstrom of critical fan feedback;  the later approach was far more controversial and  received more negative comment in the consumer base. That negativity became part of the fan culture and perception of the brand in ways that goes beyond the levels of most franchises and would probably turn its skewed, lazer eyed, focus onto kicking into ME:A in the manner applied to the previous games.

 

Introducing a wormhole in the same manner as say Project Lazarus (a previous brand repositioning and regeneration exercise) may not be the most practical choice this time around.

[Malanek]

I disagree that a wormhole is a practical solution to making the traverse between MW and Andromeda.

 

 A quick Google search on Wormholes mostly brings up the opinions of Kip Thorne who states that wormholes capable of transporting a human through it are "forbidden" by physical laws. The problem is keeping the Wormhole stable would require massive transfers of negative energy and this isn't believed to possible in any known natural event. Wormholes are justifiable, but only as supranatural events generated by an entity capable of manipulating energies on a Kardashevian scale far beyond the Reapers or Leviathans.

 

Creating plausible story scenarios that refugees from the MW could co-exist in the same galaxy as such beings is problematic.

Lol you don't want a stable wormhole. You want an unstable one so people can't flick between the two galaxies as they choose.

 

Easy scenario, Shepard triggers crucible which amongst other things releases a massive amount of energy. A wormhole opens up for a fraction of a second and swallows a bunch of ships. Wormhole closes leaving them stuck in Andromeda. We actually have a one shot device capable of generating massive amounts of energy already written into the plot!!!

 

IMO it is the only practical way of making the story. Travel can't be done in 250 years or you would be seeing probes sent through between galaxies all the time. You want it to be much, much more difficult if you want to keep the galaxies separate. I will admit that a massively long 10000+ year voyage would be acceptable although I find the timing and technology behind that a bit hard to keep secret and assemble any time during the Reaper war.

[AlleyD]

Lol you don't want a stable wormhole. You want an unstable one so people can't flick between the two galaxies as they choose.

 

Easy scenario, Shepard triggers crucible which amongst other things releases a massive amount of energy. A wormhole opens up for a fraction of a second and swallows a bunch of ships. Wormhole closes leaving them stuck in Andromeda. We actually have a one shot device capable of generating massive amounts of energy already written into the plot!!!

 

IMO it is the only practical way of making the story. Travel can't be done in 250 years or you would be seeing probes sent through between galaxies all the time. You want it to be much, much more difficult if you want to keep the galaxies separate. I will admit that a massively long 10000+ year voyage would be acceptable although I find the timing and technology behind that a bit hard to keep secret and assemble any time during the Reaper war

 

I agree that the most obvious thing in lore that could justify the traverse would be to link to the Crucible wave somehow. I even used that basic idea in the first  ME:A Fan fiction thing I started working on back in 2014 called The Lost Fleet, but dropped it when the ARK was promoted to a more canon basis.

[Drone223]

They could use a Collector core. It's Reaper-tier tech but hasn't shown any signs of indoctrination capabilities.

But collector technology is essentially reaper technology, so it's therefore capable of indoctrination.

[Drone223]

And I suggest that there's no reason - at all - for it to be as impossible or as implausible as you think. Particularly if we somehow get our hands on one ore more intact drives to study and take apart.
 

I never said its impossible I just said it can't be done in a few a months (or years). Such technology would require decades at best to reverse engineer.

 

You just really want it to be impossible for some weird reason.

 

It has nothing to with wanting it to be impossible it all has to do with the writing. A galaxy that has FTL limited to short range and requires mass relay's for long travel suddenly developing the means to travel between galaxies in a ridiculously short time span requires a huge leap in logic.

 

Council forces - and human forces - are quite capable of winning individual battles against reapers, albeit at a cost great enough that the war is out of reach without the trusty deus ex crucible. Nothing in the game precludes the notion of getting at a mostly intact destroyed reaper and securing its tech for study. Indoc is not necessarily an insurmountable problem, particularly if you know it's an issue - as has also been brought up.

 

Such victories are few and far between though and the have shown they would go to great lengths to endure their technology doesn't fall into enemy hands i.e. Horzion.

[AlleyD]

But collector technology is essentially reaper technology, so it's therefore capable of indoctrination.

 

But Leviathan DLC that the Alliance had developed containment fields that rendered large pieces of Reaper Tech to be studied without any effect of Reaper indoctrination. Yes, The use of the Collector assets in ME3 have been perceived to have been one of the mechanisms that indoctrinated TIM, but it could be argued that his indoctrination could have been caused by his first encounter with Reaper tech on Shanxi, a known indoctrination device.

[Killroy]

But collector technology is essentially reaper technology, so it's therefore capable of indoctrination.

 

That's a baseless assumption with no in-game support.

[FKA_Servo]

I never said its impossible I just said it can't be done in a few a months (or years). Such technology would require decades at best to reverse engineer.

But why? You keep saying this, but there's nothing anywhere to suggest that it's true. IF they had an intact one to study - not out of the question - why would it take years, when the cannon was adapted in a fraction of that time? And why is the drive inherently more complicated than the weapon if it's based on the same inscrutable tech?

I know you're gonna say "oh, because it breaks the known laws of physics," but there are all sorts of naturally occurring phenomena and illusions that appear to bend or break the rules of reality that are proven quite simple comprehensible upon close examination. Would
It be so strange if this were the case with a reaper drive core?

It has nothing to with wanting it to be impossible it all has to do with the writing. A galaxy that has FTL limited to short range and requires mass relay's for long travel suddenly developing the means to travel between galaxies in a ridiculously short time span requires a huge leap in logic.

Or a huge leap in understanding, possibly facilitated by detailed study of previously misunderstood technology. Kinda like that prothean beacon on Mars that quickly put humanity's spacing understanding and potential forward a couple hundred years? Except now we have the a few thousand years of FTL and spacefaring experience and expertise helping things along.

Such victories are few and far between though and the have shown they would go to great lengths to endure their technology doesn't fall into enemy hands i.e. Horzion.

But every inhabited planet is getting attacked. People are fighting reapers all over the damn place.

I'm not suggesting it should be common. All we'd need are a couple of intact reapers. Taking a couple of reapers down and harvesting their tech does not stretch credibility.

Especially when everything and their mother seems to have gotten their hands on some reaper artifact or another.

[BennyORWO]

That thing in the midle looks like the Crucible to me:

[Killroy]

That thing in the midle looks like the Crucible to me:

 

It might look a bit like the temporary covering the Crucible had, but that was all just paneling to cover the actual mechanism of the Crucible. This is what the mechanism looks like.

 

[BIGGLESBY]

WAT IF THE ANDROMEDA WAS WITHIN US ALL ALONG

[Drone223]

But Leviathan DLC that the Alliance had developed containment fields that rendered large pieces of Reaper Tech to be studied without any effect of Reaper indoctrination. Yes, The use of the Collector assets in ME3 have been perceived to have been one of the mechanisms that indoctrinated TIM, but it could be argued that his indoctrination could have been caused by his first encounter with Reaper tech on Shanxi, a known indoctrination device.

They weren't studying a large piece of reaper tech just small fragments, and if they did use it for larger species the power requirements would be fairly demanding.

 

That's a baseless assumption with no in-game support.

The collectors build actual reaper's and the indoctrination methods used in ME3 by Cerberus was based on reaper tech.

[Killroy]

The collectors build actual reaper's and the indoctrination methods used in ME3 by Cerberus was based on reaper tech.

 

Entirely irrelevant. The Collectors make Reapers out of goo, not indoctrination machines, and the Normandy crew was aboard the Collector's black ark for much longer than it takes to be indoctrinated. 

[Drone223]

But why? You keep saying this, but there's nothing anywhere to suggest that it's true. IF they had an intact one to study - not out of the question - why would it take years, when the cannon was adapted in a fraction of that time? And why is the drive inherently more complicated than the weapon if it's based on the same inscrutable tech?
 

A weapon functions differently than a drive core, when reverse engineer a drive core they'd have to first understand how it function's, build the actual thing and then test to make sure it actually works. All of that takes time and it defiantly something that can't be rushed.

 

I know you're gonna say "oh, because it breaks the known laws of physics," but there are all sorts of naturally occurring phenomena and illusions that appear to bend or break the rules of reality that are proven quite simple comprehensible upon close examination. Would
It be so strange if this were the case with a reaper drive core?

 

Given how more technologically advance the reaper's are it still going to take some time to understand it fully.

 

 

Or a huge leap in understanding, possibly facilitated by detailed study of previously misunderstood technology.

 

How can the galaxy develop intergalactic FTL when they can't even develop for long range FTL for use in their own galaxy? It makes no scene and is a huge leap in logic plan and simple.

 

Kinda like that prothean beacon on Mars that quickly put humanity's spacing understanding and potential forward a couple hundred years? Except now we have the a few thousand years of FTL and spacefaring experience and expertise helping things along.

 

Except humanity has been around for a few decades while most species have been around for few hundreds/thousands of years and even their FTL is still limited to short range.

 

But every inhabited planet is getting attacked. People are fighting reapers all over the damn place.

I'm not suggesting it should be common. All we'd need are a couple of intact reapers. Taking a couple of reapers down and harvesting their tech does not stretch credibility.

Especially when everything and their mother seems to have gotten their hands on some reaper artifact or another.

 

But said places still have a significant reaper presence and getting reaper tech itself will still be challenging, then there's superstitions of using anything based on reaper tech i.e. Ladon

[Drone223]

Entirely irrelevant. The Collectors make Reapers out of goo, not indoctrination machines, and the Normandy crew was aboard the Collector's black ark for much longer than it takes to be indoctrinated. 

The fact that the collectors build reapers is not something that would be considered irrelevant.

[Killroy]

The fact that the collectors build reapers is not something that would be considered irrelevant.

 

Well first of all, we don't know that they ever built a single complete Reaper. Second, it is irrelevant in this particular discussion since the game itself counters your argument. If the black arks were capable of indoctrination then the Normandy crew would have been indoctrinated by the time Shepard got there to save them. 

[Ahriman]

Easy scenario, Shepard triggers crucible which amongst other things releases a massive amount of energy. A wormhole opens up for a fraction of a second and swallows a bunch of ships. Wormhole closes leaving them stuck in Andromeda. We actually have a one shot device capable of generating massive amounts of energy already written into the plot!!!

 

IMO it is the only practical way of making the story. Travel can't be done in 250 years or you would be seeing probes sent through between galaxies all the time. You want it to be much, much more difficult if you want to keep the galaxies separate. I will admit that a massively long 10000+ year voyage would be acceptable although I find the timing and technology behind that a bit hard to keep secret and assemble any time during the Reaper war.

Come on, it's already not happening. There's picture on first page hinting on that.

The thanix cannon and a reaper drive core are two completely different things, with the later being extremely complex.

Thank God we have specialists with Reaper Tech degrees here on BSN.

[AntarcticWildlife]

But collector technology is essentially reaper technology, so it's therefore capable of indoctrination.

There is absolutely nothing to support that statement. Shepherd and his crew were on the black ark for more time than it would take to indoctrinate in ME2, so that pretty much disproves that statement right away.

[Dantriges]

Perhaps the Reapers didn´t share everything.

[AntarcticWildlife]

Perhaps the Reapers didn´t share everything.

Perhaps not but the reapers story is done. I hope we dont see 'oh but this happened but we didn't say anything because reasons', because that wouldn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Chealec]

A weapon functions differently than a drive core, when reverse engineer a drive core they'd have to first understand how it function's, build the actual thing and then test to make sure it actually works. All of that takes time and it defiantly something that can't be rushed.

 

...

 

 

The basic difference between a propulsion system and a weapon is which direction you aim it.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Just imagine the crew getting indoctrinated but with no Reapers around. Maybe they'd accept the Reapers as their new gods and pray to them. You know, everything goes on normally but conversations end with "Praise the Reapers!" and people speak of the harvest fondly as something they look forward to...

[Ahriman]

Just imagine the crew getting indoctrinated but with no Reapers around. Maybe they'd accept the Reapers as their new gods and pray to them. You know, everything goes on normally but conversations end with "Praise the Reapers!" and people speak of the harvest fondly as something they look forward to...

Well, we already saw how aimless indoctrination works. Hallucinations, headache, desire to put yourself on a spike. Oh, and shared memories, very helpful for teamspirit.

Krogan: Remember how I got five mating requests in a day?

Ryder: Like I did them myself, bro!

[FKA_Servo]

A weapon functions differently than a drive core, when reverse engineer a drive core they'd have to first understand how it function's, build the actual thing and then test to make sure it actually works. All of that takes time and it defiantly something that can't be rushed.

 

Given how more technologically advance the reaper's are it still going to take some time to understand it fully.

 

I'll ask again - how do you know that this is the case? A firearm is functionally very similar in principle to a combustion engine. It's quite possible that might hold true for more advanced and sophisticated tech as well. We don't know that that's the case for sure, but we haven't seen anything to contradict it, and it seems a likely route all things considered.

 

You're basing your definitive proclamations on stuff that you just decided must be true. None of it has any basis in the game. At best, it's just not addressed.

 

How can the galaxy develop intergalactic FTL when they can't even develop for long range FTL for use in their own galaxy? It makes no scene and is a huge leap in logic plan and simple.

 

Except humanity has been around for a few decades while most species have been around for few hundreds/thousands of years and even their FTL is still limited to short range.

 

I've offered sensible reasons to account for these things at least twice, and I wasn't even the first one to do so in this thread. Since you haven't shown any interest in acknowledging them yet, I imagine you'll continue to ignore them and re-state the same groundless claim over and over again.

 

But said places still have a significant reaper presence and getting reaper tech itself will still be challenging, then there's superstitions of using anything based on reaper tech i.e. Ladon

 

Who said it wouldn't be challenging? I'm just suggesting that it's possible, and given the stakes, they might expend a good amount of effort and resources to do so. Should they go that route (it seems likely), it wouldn't contradict anything we know from the past three games. As for that weapon, I wouldn't consider it the final word on using reaper tech. The drive core isn't shooting missiles at anything, and it could be staffed and maintained by scientists and engineers who understand it rather than over-imaginative soldiers.

 

I admit, I'm curious to know how you'd get to Andromeda, if you've decided that every lore plausible option offered by other folks here is impossible.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Science happened, and we got from point A to point B thanks to it. That's how we will get to Andromeda.