361 réponses à ce sujet

[fhs33721]

You are really overreaching with this theory. So Shadow Broker (Liara), The Council (Anderson/Udina), The Alliance Navy (Hackett) and Cerberus don't know that this thing is being built? In this theory, who does know about it? Who builds the thing? Who commissioned it? Who is manning it? 

Who says The Council, Anderson, Udina, The Alliance, Hackett and Cerberus don't know that this thing is being built? Just because they know it doesn't mean they have to brag about it to Shepard. Also Liara herself says that durig ME3 her network is seriously crippled due to the mild galaxy wide apocalypse taking place.

Is it still kind of implausibel? Maybe. However, out of all the implausible bllsh*t that has already happened in the ME trilogy Sheppard not knowing about an Ark project wouldn't even reach the top 20.

[ZipZap2000]

My theory is that the Ark project had been something that had been on the drawing boards ever since Shepard first came up to them with knowledge of the Reapers existence. The Ark was was constructed along with the Crucible, as a Plan B option should the Crucible fail to wipe out the Reapers as they hoped, but it's existence was kept quiet because unlike the Crucible that generated hope, the Ark would be seen as an admission of defeat.

Shepard not knowing makes sense in the context of what they were doing in ME3.

In ME3, Shepard was already in a high-pressure environment, with the fate of the galaxy being won or lost depending on their actions. They honestly did not need more things added to their plate, let alone know that the Ark was in place if they failed which might cause them to doubt that they were on a hopeless cause. Hackett flat out tells us our fervent belief in the cause is what is winning people over and securing their alliance with the other races, which is one of the reasons he picked us to be the Alliance's ambassador and pointman in the first place.

Furthermore, putting Shepard out there with the knowledge of the Ark would be a disaster should they succumb to Indoctrination, a possibility given the amount of exposure to Reapers and their technology in the past. The Alliance (or whoever builds it) probably don't want the knowledge of it's existence to be known outside of the project.

Whereas the Crucible's secrecy is something Shepard can be trusted with. Despite the Alliance taking steps to keep it's existence secret from the public, they would have to know that the Reapers are probably already aware of such a device's existence from the Prothean extinction (and we learn later, the previous Cycle's attempts to build it). Furthermore, despite knowing of the Project, the need for secrecy is why Hackett does not allow Shepard knowledge of where it's being constructed at any point in ME3, meaning they could not lead the Reapers to it even if they were compromised.

Whether the Illusive Man or Liara may have been aware of the Ark is questionable.

You could imagine the Illusive Man keeping that to himself as he did with many of his other plans, since he had no reason to want to flee the Reapers if he could control them. Even though he was indoctrinated, he doesn't seem to have leaked the information to the Reapers... and even if he had, their typical arrogance would have the Reapers chose to ignore it as a threat to their plans.

Liara knowing, but not choosing to inform Shepard probably was to avoid burdening them with doubt. She more than anyone would be aware that taking steps to ensure their civilisation continued if they failed was a prudent course of action, lest they share the fate of the Protheans and countless others. We even see that she had taken steps herself, such as with the time capsules, to try and make sure that something of their people would survive.

Which is I think it should take place at a minimum before Liara became the broker.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

 

It's simple. We killed Sovereign. It's drive core was intact (hand wave). They used it in the ark project. We get to Andromeda. 

[Killroy]

Not that I agree but that raises another issue.

If we leave during the Reaper war how does Cerberus with an agent on the council not know?

Because endless resources=/=omnipotent?

You are really overreaching with this theory. So Shadow Broker (Liara), The Council (Anderson/Udina), The Alliance Navy (Hackett) and Cerberus don't know that this thing is being built? In this theory, who does know about it? Who builds the thing? Who commissioned it? Who is manning it?

What theory? You're the one assuming facts not in evidence. You're the one positing an affirmative. Your assertion is that no one could ever keep a secret in the entire galaxy. Back it up. All I have to do is poke holes in your assertion to undermine it.

For instance, how did Cerberus make the galaxy's largest military force in a few months, build an endless supply of space stations, gather more money than God, perform literal miracles, and operate in every area of the galaxy without anyone knowing about or noticing any of it?

[AlleyD]

IIRC, Liara wasn't Shadow Broker for a long time, only a matter of months at most. Cerberus forced Liara to destroy her main ship and she was then working on the Mars Archive for the Alliance.

 

It is very plausible in that situation to believe that her network's efficiency was compromised. Considering how little she knew of Cerberus' plans and how close they came to seizing control of the S/B network. She couldn't even protect herself let alone have access to every secret in the galaxy.

 

She didn't have much effect on uncovering secrets in the centre of Galactic power.  Consider how Udina's, and the Volus and Hanar ambassador's betrayals went completely without comment from Liara.  The Volus Ambassador's betrayal is maybe most puzzling considering Liara's citadel contact was a Volus of some influence and power. These show she had little knowledge of the Citadel political arena.

 

Another major limitation was her complete lack of knowledge of the Thessia Temple beacon. This shows  her current lack of intel on Asari High Command, who are mentioned as having contigency plans in hand to secure the continuation of Civilization.

 

Liara does not appear to have been a good information broker in the limited time she was able to function in that role; certainly not some omni-potent being with access to every possible secret in a galaxy of trillions of individuals.  

[Drone223]

My theory is that the Ark project had been something that had been on the drawing boards ever since Shepard first came up to them with knowledge of the Reapers existence. The Ark was was constructed along with the Crucible, as a Plan B option should the Crucible fail to wipe out the Reapers as they hoped, but it's existence was kept quiet because unlike the Crucible that generated hope, the Ark would be seen as an admission of defeat.

 

There is no way an ark project and the crucible can co-exist, the crucible alone is enough to bankrupt the galaxy and all the galaxies resources are being thrown at it along with "any one who can hold a hammer." In addition the reaper's are destroying key instructor which is already taxing the galaxies logistics.

 

 

Shepard not knowing makes sense in the context of what they were doing in ME3.

 

Rumor's of the crucibles existence were spreading during the first few days of the war due to its scale. An ark project would be on a similar scale (since it would be a project with no room for error) so rumor's of its existence would spread eventually.
 

In ME3, Shepard was already in a high-pressure environment, with the fate of the galaxy being won or lost depending on their actions. They honestly did not need more things added to their plate, let alone know that the Ark was in place if they failed which might cause them to doubt that they were on a hopeless cause. Hackett flat out tells us our fervent belief in the cause is what is winning people over and securing their alliance with the other races, which is one of the reasons he picked us to be the Alliance's ambassador and pointman in the first place.

 

That's absurd, Shepard knows defeat is a real possibility even with the crucible (since they don't know what it can do). Its safe to say Shepard would have no problem knowing that there is a plan for the continuation of the various species in the galaxy should the crucible fail.

 

Furthermore, putting Shepard out there with the knowledge of the Ark would be a disaster should they succumb to Indoctrination, a possibility given the amount of exposure to Reapers and their technology in the past. The Alliance (or whoever builds it) probably don't want the knowledge of it's existence to be known outside of the project.

 

Shepard knows the crucible exist but is never told its location, the same can be done with the ark knows its exist but is never told its location.
 

Whereas the Crucible's secrecy is something Shepard can be trusted with. Despite the Alliance taking steps to keep it's existence secret from the public, they would have to know that the Reapers are probably already aware of such a device's existence from the Prothean extinction (and we learn later, the previous Cycle's attempts to build it). Furthermore, despite knowing of the Project, the need for secrecy is why Hackett does not allow Shepard knowledge of where it's being constructed at any point in ME3, meaning they could not lead the Reapers to it even if they were compromised.

 

See above comment.

 

 

It would be very in-character for the Illusive Man keeping that information to himself as he did with many of his other plans, since he had no reason to want to flee the Reapers if he could control them. Even though he was indoctrinated, he doesn't seem to have leaked the information to the Reapers... and even if he had, their typical arrogance would have the Reapers chose to ignore it as a threat to their plans.

 

TIM was indoctrinated long before ME3 if he'd knew about the ark so would the reaper's.

 

 

Liara knowing, but not choosing to inform Shepard probably was to avoid burdening them with doubt. She more than anyone would be aware that taking steps to ensure their civilisation continued if they failed was a prudent course of action, lest they share the fate of the Protheans and countless others. We even see that she had taken steps herself, such as with the time capsules, to try and make sure that something of their people would survive.

 

That's completely out for character for Liara, as I said before Shepard knows defeat is a real possibility even with the crucible and so does Liara. If Liara can tell Shepard about her data caches (containing warnings and the crucible plans) should they fail she would have no problem telling Shepard about an ark ship.

[Killroy]

There is no way an ark project and the crucible can co-exist, the crucible alone is enough to bankrupt the galaxy and all the galaxies resources are being thrown at it along with "any one who can hold a hammer." 

 

You always say this but nowhere in the game is it stated that the Crucible bankrupted the galaxy, and "throwing everyone who can hold a hammer at it" is very clearly hyperbole. Every place you visit in the game is filled with people who can hold hammers. The Crucible had to be kept secret from the Reapers so actually having everyone capable of holding a hammer work on it would be a bad idea in principle, and having a trillion(unskilled) people all working on a single satellite would be physically impossible.

[Gothfather]

Here is a lore consideration. Why do the mass relays exist? They exist to make the cycles more efficient by channelling organics down a particular avenue of technology. The reason is that in the early cycles the catalyst learned that organics could be unpredictable in terms of what they could think of technologically. While the relays are intended to funnel organics down technology based on the "mass effect" it isn't space magic or hand waving to have the travel to Andromeda be none mass effect related. Wormholes are a real life theory today it isn't all that unreasonable to think that some researcher figures out how to use them 200 years into the future.

 

Since the trilogy already stated that mass effect technology is not a "natural" progression of technological development it isn't crazy pull stuff out of their ass to have the technology that gets us to Andromeda be something entirely new. We are told organics will develop technologically in unpredictable ways. Is it so far out of the realm of possibility that one of those example of unpredictability happen in Shepard's cycle?

[AntarcticWildlife]

What theory? You're the one assuming facts not in evidence. You're the one positing an affirmative. Your assertion is that no one could ever keep a secret in the entire galaxy. Back it up. All I have to do is poke holes in your assertion to undermine it.

 

I don't see you poking holes in anything. Even if it was kept secret from everyone, as soon as you accessed the shadow brokers data network you would be aware of it.

[Killroy]

I don't see you poking holes in anything. Even if it was kept secret from everyone, as soon as you accessed the shadow brokers data network you would be aware of it.

 

...what?

[AntarcticWildlife]

...what?

 

I don't see you poking holes in anything. Even if it was kept secret from everyone, as soon as you accessed the shadow brokers data network you would be aware of it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

To be honest, the reason there isn't any mention of the Ark is because it wasn't a plan when Mass Effect 3 was made. When Mass Effect 3 was made, it was planned to be the final Mass Effect game hence why they had such divergent choices. 

[Iakus]

 

Since the trilogy already stated that mass effect technology is not a "natural" progression of technological development it isn't crazy pull stuff out of their ass to have the technology that gets us to Andromeda be something entirely new. We are told organics will develop technologically in unpredictable ways. Is it so far out of the realm of possibility that one of those example of unpredictability happen in Shepard's cycle?

Sadly, yes.

 

Another effect of the relays is complacency and stagnation.   Why bother to invent something new when we already have what is needed with the relays?  We've already seen how humans and turians are technologically almost at a parity despite turians being uplifted a thousand years before the First Contact War.  The only reason asari are at the head of the pack is the beacon on Thessia no one else knows about.  Aethyta suggests they start building their own relays and they "laughed the blue off my @ss")

 

Pre-Reapers, there's simply no large-scale motivation to go exploring other galaxies.  They hadn't even fully explored the relay network, which is closer and within the realm of already extant technology!    To develop this technology you'd have to create a situation where a small, independent group (but large enough to have a viable population for several species) stumbles onto a technology no one has ever bothered to study, and likely never crossed most people's minds.

[Drone223]

You always say this but nowhere in the game is it stated that the Crucible bankrupted the galaxy,

The codex says otherwise.

 

"What is clear is that the Crucible's construction is a massive effort, drawing resources from throughout explored space. Staggering financial costs have been disregarded in the common effort to create something, anything, that can stop the Reapers."

 

 

"throwing everyone who can hold a hammer at it" is very clearly hyperbole. Every place you visit in the game is filled with people who can hold hammers. The Crucible had to be kept secret from the Reapers so actually having everyone capable of holding a hammer work on it would be a bad idea in principle, and having a trillion(unskilled) people all working on a single satellite would be physically impossible.

 

The crucible project is huge joint effect that entire galaxy is contributing and is the biggest construction project in the history of the galaxy, no expense being spared. Its not far fetched that they would send as many people to work on it as possible.

[Fortlowe]

Here is a lore consideration. Why do the mass relays exist? They exist to make the cycles more efficient by channelling organics down a particular avenue of technology. The reason is that in the early cycles the catalyst learned that organics could be unpredictable in terms of what they could think of technologically. While the relays are intended to funnel organics down technology based on the "mass effect" it isn't space magic or hand waving to have the travel to Andromeda be none mass effect related. Wormholes are a real life theory today it isn't all that unreasonable to think that some researcher figures out how to use them 200 years into the future.

Since the trilogy already stated that mass effect technology is not a "natural" progression of technological development it isn't crazy pull stuff out of their ass to have the technology that gets us to Andromeda be something entirely new. We are told organics will develop technologically in unpredictable ways. Is it so far out of the realm of possibility that one of those example of unpredictability happen in Shepard's cycle?

I'm inclined to agree with this. A combination of "old"(mass effect), emerging (quantum entanglement), and new (worm hole creation) technologies will likely be how the trip to Andromeda will get explained.

[Dantriges]

It´s already pretty clear that the "how they get to Andromeda" will involve retconning, some unheard of technology some pretty parlor tricks. If it bothers you enough, don´t buy. I reserve judgement until the reviews are in (and a price reduction) and it becomes apparent if the rest of the game is a garbled mess with a nonsensical plot and the writers running roughshod over the story, common sense and any kind of semi rational logic in the name of cool, because uh look graphics and jetpacks, now take your gun and stop complaining. And uh, let´s not forget Cerberus because they are so awesome.

 

I fully expect that we get a "We are in Andromeda somehow, let´s not talk about the Shepard trilogy again." I would be really surprised if we actually got an explanation that actually makes sense, when you had 5 minutes to think about it.

 

I don´t understand Drone´s agenda here. So ok, the whole thing sounds implausible. Yep. So now what? The Andromeda move is some giant a**pull they try to salvage as much of their setting as they could, after some "bright" guy decided to bomb it as hard as possible without actually turining it into "the Crucible sucked in the energy and matter of the Milky Way to blow up the Reapers. Congrats, you killed them, and there is no a giant void of nothing where the galaxy known as Milky Way was."

[Killroy]

I don't see you poking holes in anything. Even if it was kept secret from everyone, as soon as you accessed the shadow brokers data network you would be aware of it.

 

Explain what that means, FFS...

[Killroy]

The codex says otherwise.
 
"What is clear is that the Crucible's construction is a massive effort, drawing resources from throughout explored space. Staggering financial costs have been disregarded in the common effort to create something, anything, that can stop the Reapers."

Where does it say the Crucible bankrupted the galaxy? Oh, nowhere. So stop saying that.
 

The crucible project is huge joint effect that entire galaxy is contributing and is the biggest construction project in the history of the galaxy, no expense being spared. Its not far fetched that they would send as many people to work on it as possible.

Does your brain not work right? I already explained exactly why you wouldn't want every yokel with hands working on the Crucible.

[ZipZap2000]

IIRC, Liara wasn't Shadow Broker for a long time, only a matter of months at most. Cerberus forced Liara to destroy her main ship and she was then working on the Mars Archive for the Alliance.

It is very plausible in that situation to believe that her network's efficiency was compromised. Considering how little she knew of Cerberus' plans and how close they came to seizing control of the S/B network. She couldn't even protect herself let alone have access to every secret in the galaxy.

She didn't have much effect on uncovering secrets in the centre of Galactic power. Consider how Udina's, and the Volus and Hanar ambassador's betrayals went completely without comment from Liara. The Volus Ambassador's betrayal is maybe most puzzling considering Liara's citadel contact was a Volus of some influence and power. These show she had little knowledge of the Citadel political arena.

Another major limitation was her complete lack of knowledge of the Thessia Temple beacon. This shows her current lack of intel on Asari High Command, who are mentioned as having contigency plans in hand to secure the continuation of Civilization.

Liara does not appear to have been a good information broker in the limited time she was able to function in that role; certainly not some omni-potent being with access to every possible secret in a galaxy of trillions of individuals.

The problem is a brief play through of the game states the exact opposite.

[Drone223]

Where does it say the Crucible bankrupted the galaxy? Oh, nowhere. So stop saying that.
 

The fact that the galaxy is willing disregard the costs of the crucible gives a good idea on how much strain crucible project is going to take on the economy.

 

Does your brain not work right? I already explained exactly why you wouldn't want every yokel with hands working on the Crucible.

 

The crucible being possibly the only means to defeat the reaper's in enough reason to get as many people working on it as possible.

[AntarcticWildlife]

Explain what that means, FFS...

 

It means that the Shadow Broker would 100% definitely know about it if a government was building an Ark. There is no possible situation where he/she wouldn't be aware of it.

[von uber]

Where does it say the Crucible bankrupted the galaxy? Oh, nowhere. So stop saying that.

There a part in the game where galactic economic collapse is predicted within a year just due to the Reaper war alone. Throw the Crucible in on this, plus now an Ark? Starting to stretch credibility.

Face it, it's a complete arse pull to make all this work, but at least ME has form on this. To be honest I'd believe it more if the explanation was 'Cerberus', as at least that would be consistent bollocks.

Oh and I never understand your overly aggressive form of posting, it's very weird.

[Killroy]

The fact that the galaxy is willing disregard the costs of the crucible gives a good idea on how much strain crucible project is going to take on the economy.

But there's no evidence at all that the Crucible bankrupted the galaxy, as you constantly claim. You pulled that out of thin air and treat it as an unassailable fact.

The crucible being possibly the only means to defeat the reaper's in enough reason to get as many people working on it as possible.

No, the Crucible being the only weapon to defeat the Reapers is a great reason to keep people the hell away. What possible aid could unqualified randos offer? The Crucible is not a desk from IKEA, it's a highly advanced MacGuffin engine.

[Killroy]

It means that the Shadow Broker would 100% definitely know about it if a government was building an Ark. There is no possible situation where he/she wouldn't be aware of it.

The Shadow Broker doesn't know everything. How didn't the Broker know about Cerberus' endless resources and Reaper-incubated plans? Or Udina's betrayal? It the secret MacGugffin in the Mars archives?

[Killroy]

There a part in the game where galactic economic collapse is predicted within a year just due to the Reaper war alone. Throw the Crucible in on this, plus now an Ark? Starting to stretch credibility.

Within a year every inhabited world would be completely under siege. But look at what the Protheans accomplished, under much worse circumstances.

Face it, it's a complete arse pull to make all this work, but at least ME has form on this. To be honest I'd believe it more if the explanation was 'Cerberus', as at least that would be consistent bollocks.

Every major plot point in ME3 is a complete asspull. So was the end to ME1. So was the entire Cerberus organization after ME1.

Oh and I never understand your overly aggressive form of posting, it's very weird.

When people make unfounded assumptions and treat them like objective facts it irritates me to no end.