361 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

There a part in the game where galactic economic collapse is predicted within a year just due to the Reaper war alone. Throw the Crucible in on this, plus now an Ark? Starting to stretch credibility.

Face it, it's a complete arse pull to make all this work, but at least ME has form on this. To be honest I'd believe it more if the explanation was 'Cerberus', as at least that would be consistent bollocks.

Oh and I never understand your overly aggressive form of posting, it's very weird.

 

It's definitely an ass pull to make the story work. But it's not completely incompatible with events as written. This again goes back to the "Bioware never defined our resources" point. Without that, all we have is a vague reference to the economy that doesn't really hold up all that well when we consider how Bioware chooses to portray other events (Ex: such as ME3's Citadel dlc and the Citadel in general). 

[Barquiel]

I don't really see the problem here, the salarians for example didn't even support the crucible project. I'm not saying it's a perfect scenario, but "salarians secretly built the ark with some asari/turian help at the beginning of the war" would be an explanation I could accept.

[Gothfather]

Sadly, yes.

 

Another effect of the relays is complacency and stagnation.   Why bother to invent something new when we already have what is needed with the relays?  We've already seen how humans and turians are technologically almost at a parity despite turians being uplifted a thousand years before the First Contact War.  The only reason asari are at the head of the pack is the beacon on Thessia no one else knows about.  Aethyta suggests they start building their own relays and they "laughed the blue off my @ss")

 

Pre-Reapers, there's simply no large-scale motivation to go exploring other galaxies.  They hadn't even fully explored the relay network, which is closer and within the realm of already extant technology!    To develop this technology you'd have to create a situation where a small, independent group (but large enough to have a viable population for several species) stumbles onto a technology no one has ever bothered to study, and likely never crossed most people's minds.

 

You just explained why no one developed a scientific theory into a practical industry pre reapers you did NOTHING to show why that knowledge couldn't have been discovered. The rocket and the jet engines were all theories before they were practical weapons. They were proven theories before they were practical tools. And we had working models before they were commercial enterprises. Nothing you say stops a experimental physicists from taking a theory from physics like wormholes and proving their existence. And nothing about the mass relays stops this from happening. All the mass relays do is stop alternative methods from REPLACING mass effect tech because it is too costly because the new tech doesn't have the infrastructure already in place. A WAR throws all these things out the window because suddenly you have a REASON to develop things. Science if filled with stagnation of though and just one mind blows the lid off of that complacency with a new theory. But why do i think me bringing up past examples won't change your mind. hmm things that make you go hmm.

 

There was no need to an atomic bomb pre WWII but the fraking theoretical knowledge was decades old. Wormholes would be theoretical knowledge that was centuries old by the time of the trilogies for just humans and likely thousands of years for other races nothing prohibits some scientist from having proven they exist using university funds, and to take this knowledge and work as a spring board for making a ship that could reach Andromeda in non mass effect technology. No a university couldn't fund the project to build a ship to reach Andromeda but they could have created a wormhole prototype drive from a probe and that could have been something that was centuries old as one of the older races could have done the experiments. If we can build the atomic bomb in a few years we could build an a ship during the trilogy. Hell they could have hidden the ark project by within the crucible project by making it a secret sub division.

 

The mass relays steer people down specific areas of technology they don't magically stop all technological development that isn't mass effect related.

 

But you NEVER change your mind about ANYTHING because you are not interested in facts or evidence you just want opinion. Every argument you make is opinion based and you ignore any facts or evidence that goes against you opinion. In all my time on these threads I have never once seen you admit you were mistaken about anything.

[Drone223]

But there's no evidence at all that the Crucible bankrupted the galaxy, as you constantly claim. You pulled that out of thin air and treat it as an unassailable fact.

Given the "Staggering financial costs" require to build its not of the question that the galactic economy could be cripple by it.

 

No, the Crucible being the only weapon to defeat the Reapers is a great reason to keep people the hell away. What possible aid could unqualified randos offer? The Crucible is not a desk from IKEA, it's a highly advanced MacGuffin engine.

 

If people listened to Shepard's warnings about the reaper's and prepared for their arrival instead of burring their heads in the sand then perhaps they wouldn't need the crucible. But since they choose to ignore Shepard's warnings they're in no position to put up a prolonged fight against the reaper's they don't have much choice but to use the crucible.

[Gothfather]

The fact that the galaxy is willing disregard the costs of the crucible gives a good idea on how much strain crucible project is going to take on the economy.

 

The crucible being possibly the only means to defeat the reaper's in enough reason to get as many people working on it as possible.

 

Oh for frak sake.

 

Wrong that is false logic. Societies are often willing to off set large capital cost projects without coming near to bankrupting themselves. The UK did this with their naval program, or the London sewer projects. All that codex said is that there was a LARGE capital costs for the project and that the galaxy was willing to shoulder the burden. Guess what Sherlock there is a use of "poetic" language in that codex as well unless you seriously think the galaxy as a whole made informed consent to fund the project.  Because they didn't it simply means that the project was financed by multiple governments.

 

The Manhattan project is the same equivalent. It was a huge massive project that was secret with over hundred thousand workers costing billions of dollars. It didn't near bankrupt the allies in and off itself. And it did not prohibit or eliminate all other secret projects. The faking British had a jet fighter almost at the same time as the ME 262 was fist in service. ME 262 introduced spring '44 the British meteor introduced summer of '44. How is this possible because one fraking secret project doesn't eliminate all others. The Gloster meteor was used against the bloody v1 bomb so it was a combat fighter just in case you try the tactic of it wasn't in actual service. Not to mention perhaps the most important secret project in the entire war bletchley park.

 

The crucible is a financial strain that isn't in question but this idea that no other secret project could exist because it existed is fanciful and history shows not only can you have multiple secret projects on at the same time you can have multiple successful secret projects. Do a little bit of research and educate yourself on just how many secret projects the allies did and you will see this idea that you can only have one just doesn't stand up. 

[Gothfather]

Given the "Staggering financial costs" require to build its not of the question that the galactic economy could be cripple by it.

 

If people listened to Shepard's warnings about the reaper's and prepared for their arrival instead of burring their heads in the sand then perhaps they wouldn't need the crucible. But since they choose to ignore Shepard's warnings they're in no position to put up a prolonged fight against the reaper's they don't have much choice but to use the crucible.

FALSE.

 

The protheans were utterly surprised by the reapers as the citadel trap was 100% successful in that cycle. Javik was born centuries AFTER the fact and the reapers were still in the middle of the harvest.  Earth was on the brink of being destroyed but the galaxy had centuries of fight left in them.

[Iakus]

 

But you NEVER change your mind about ANYTHING because you are not interested in facts or evidence you just want opinion. Every argument you make is opinion based and you ignore any facts or evidence that goes against you opinion. In all my time on these threads I have never once seen you admit you were mistaken about anything.

You know, I was going to write a long, thoughtful reply refuting what you said, citing stuff from the game, all ready for an honest debate.

 

But if you're going to be an arse like that, I'm not gonna bother.

[Iakus]

It's definitely an ass pull to make the story work. But it's not completely incompatible with events as written. This again goes back to the "Bioware never defined our resources" point. Without that, all we have is a vague reference to the economy that doesn't really hold up all that well when we consider how Bioware chooses to portray other events (Ex: such as ME3's Citadel dlc and the Citadel in general). 

SHould such arsepulls really be encouraged, thought?  

 

How was Shepard brought back to life?  "Resources"  

[Iakus]

 

Oh and I never understand your overly aggressive form of posting, it's very weird.

Just use Ignore.  I do

[Gothfather]

You know, I was going to write a long, thoughtful reply refuting what you said, citing stuff from the game, all ready for an honest debate.

 

But if you're going to be an arse like that, I'm not gonna bother.

 

"I was going to use evidence but now I'm not because you are a big meanie challenge me on never using evidence in my opinion based arguments."

 

LMFAO

[The Hierophant]

Meh, don't think about it too much, and just drink. That's what i do.

 

But when i stop drinking, and start thinking, It's amazing how haphazard the writing for ME is.

[ZipZap2000]

Ah, yes.

The UK naval program.

There's a fair comparison to a galactic council of civilizations.

[Il Divo]

SHould such arsepulls really be encouraged, thought?  

 

How was Shepard brought back to life?  "Resources"  

 

Probably not, but what I consider an arsepull is in many ways a lot more liberal than most. I think most stories, in lieu of 100% dedicated concrete facts, are more concerned with connecting with the audience than they are with establishing or maintaining their rule set. In general, I place quite a bit of ME's writing in this category, the whole trilogy included. 

 

In Bioware's case, aside from the benefit of leaving the endings behind, they might like the idea of Andromeda because it could let them maintain their favorite elements of the ME universe while connecting it to a new technology and races, which Mass Effect couldn't really do otherwise. And I suspect more than a few people are curious to see how this pans out. 

 

That kind of revamp could turn out great, like Bryan Fuller's Hannibal or turn out sloppy, like Heroes Reborn. 

[Fortlowe]

Probably not, but what I consider an arsepull is in many ways a lot more liberal than most. I think most stories, in lieu of 100% dedicated concrete facts, are more concerned with connecting with the audience than they are with establishing or maintaining their rule set. In general, I place quite a bit of ME's writing in this category, the whole trilogy included. 
 
In Bioware's case, aside from the benefit of leaving the endings behind, they might like the idea of Andromeda because it could let them maintain their favorite elements of the ME universe while connecting it to a new technology and races, which Mass Effect couldn't really do otherwise. And I suspect more than a few people are curious to see how this pans out. 
 
That kind of revamp could turn out great, like Bryan Fuller's Hannibal or turn out sloppy, like Heroes Reborn.

Before the reveal about the story taking place in Andromeda, I'd a notion that the rest of the Milky way was going to be explored. Another thing the relays did, or rather the reliance on the relay network did, was essentially shut off any attempt to explore the rest of the galaxy. Although the network spanned the breadth of the galaxy, only a very small portion of the star systems could possibly be accessed.

Think of the network in the same way as all the different flight paths on earth. Sure they all pretty much cover the planet. But in using that network of flight paths, we fly over the vast majority of it. So if we apply that understanding to the relay network, it means we've missed out on exploring the majority of the Milky way.

I've wondered if perhaps there is, or are, other relay networks in our own galaxy. Networks that never intersect with ours or others, that are inaccessable by any other means than the network itself or millions of years of sustained ftl travel. That could mean that the reaper threat us very much still ongoing, only for a parallel galactic civilization that we have no clue about and they us.

Not the direction they chose to go, but it might have been interesting to explore more of our own galaxy only to stumble across a revelation like that.

[Drone223]

FALSE.

The protheans were utterly surprised by the reapers as the citadel trap was 100% successful in that cycle. Javik was born centuries AFTER the fact and the reapers were still in the middle of the harvest. Earth was on the brink of being destroyed but the galaxy had centuries of fight left in them.

You ignored the fact the galaxy did nothing prepare for their arrival ("ah yes reaper's") and thus the galaxy was still caught by surpise, when the galaxy launches its counter attack on earth they commit most if not all their forces to said attack. There is also the economy being in a fragile state with the cruicble project and the war.

[Killroy]

You ignored the fact the galaxy did nothing prepare for their arrival ("ah yes reaper's") and thus the galaxy was still caught by surpise. There is also the economy being in a fragile state with the cruicble project and the war.

Demonstrably false. The Reapers were on Plan C when they invaded from dark space. And your insistence that the entire galaxy's economy was totally drained by the Crucible is just as baseless and silly as the first time you said it. "Disregarding the costs" of the project has no implications other than the cost of the project being disregarded in the the hope that it pays off.

[ZipZap2000]

You ignored the fact the galaxy did nothing prepare for their arrival ("ah yes reaper's") and thus the galaxy was still caught by surpise, when the galaxy launches its counter attack on earth they commit most if not all their forces to said attack. There is also the economy being in a fragile state with the cruicble project and the war.

The galaxy had one year before the economy collapses.

I shudder to think what it would cost to build something that big that fast.

[shodiswe]

There Will be an ARK, a big ship capable of making the journey, and then there will be smaller scout vessels and colonyships brought along inside.

 

Non-stanrd and non-Reaperbaesd FTL drive. Most likely, and probably some Stasis pod usage sicne it would be more resource efficient for the collonisation effort than having people pacing back and forth chewing on their fingernails waiting for them to get there asking... Are we there yet? Are we there yet?

[Ahriman]

 Most likely, and probably some Stasis pod usage sicne it would be more resource efficient for the collonisation effort than having people pacing back and forth chewing on their fingernails waiting for them to get there asking... Are we there yet? Are we there yet?

This reminds me of Homeworld with it's 40 thousands frozen people. "Good morning, mate. We've just lost a cruiser and you're lucky to be part of crew for the new one."

[AntarcticWildlife]

Ah, yes.

The UK naval program.

There's a fair comparison to a galactic council of civilizations.

I think if anybody compares anything from todays world to the mass effect world, they have already undermined their credibility 10 fold. The mass effect universe works nothing like the real world, especially politically.

[Helios969]

A practical look at which type of space magic were going to use...lol.

[Iakus]

"I was going to use evidence but now I'm not because you are a big meanie challenge me on never using evidence in my opinion based arguments."

 

LMFAO

Aaaaaaand, Ignore

[Iakus]

Probably not, but what I consider an arsepull is in many ways a lot more liberal than most. I think most stories, in lieu of 100% dedicated concrete facts, are more concerned with connecting with the audience than they are with establishing or maintaining their rule set. In general, I place quite a bit of ME's writing in this category, the whole trilogy included. 

 

In Bioware's case, aside from the benefit of leaving the endings behind, they might like the idea of Andromeda because it could let them maintain their favorite elements of the ME universe while connecting it to a new technology and races, which Mass Effect couldn't really do otherwise. And I suspect more than a few people are curious to see how this pans out. 

 

That kind of revamp could turn out great, like Bryan Fuller's Hannibal or turn out sloppy, like Heroes Reborn. 

Speaking for myself, it's hard for me to form connections in a story where the suspension of disbelief is hanged by the neck until dad.

 

I can accept magic, even space magic to a degree.  But it has to stay consistent.  You don't create an engaging story by justifying a solution as "throw money at the problem until it goes away" And happening to find an ancient alien artifact wears thin.  

 

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of getting away from the endings.  But I don't see how traveling to Andromeda can be done in a believable way given the state of the galaxy both before and after the war.  Not without enough handwaving that the writers find themselves airborne in explaining it.

[themikefest]

IFF

 

The derelict reaper in ME2 has the IFF needed to safely travel through the Omega 4 relay. I would guess all reapers have an IFF. I would also guess they have it to use the Citadel relay at the beginning and end of each cycle.

 

When Sovereign is destroyed, the IFF remains intact. Someone finds it.

 

As I've said before I believe the ship leaves before the events of ME3. Its possible a group of very wealthy individuals wanted to make a daring mission to Andromeda to explore. They have the resources to build the ship and people who volunteer for the trip. Only a few people would know about the IFF. The IFF leads them to the relay in darkspace that the reapers use to get to the MIky Way at the start of each cyce. Its possible that relay could lead to other parts of darkspace or to a galactic relay that can send a ship to any other galaxy.

 

If the ship leaves during the events of ME3, the IFF from Sovereign is put in the hands of the council.  The ship is built and leaves before the fleets head to Earth. Just like above, they find the relay in darkspace that might/could get them to Andromeda.

[Ahriman]

 

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of getting away from the endings.  But I don't see how traveling to Andromeda can be done in a believable way given the state of the galaxy both before and after the war.  Not without enough handwaving that the writers find themselves airborne in explaining it.

We are running in circles here, but ok. We are talking about dreadnought+ sized Ark ship.

Turians were able to build two dreadnought in two years without full economy mobilization.

Meanwhile asari, who are said to have strongest economy, built zero dreadnoughts at the moment of ME3 and refuse to fund Crucible until very end.

Salarians don't build any dreadnoughts as well and don't fund Crucible at all.

Council did recognize Sovereign as Reaper, that's a fact. Council races could build five Arks at the moment of ME3, yet you find more believable that Council was doing nothing for 3 years. That's the problem of your own headcanon, nothing more.