263 réponses à ce sujet

[AntiChri5]

I think it really just boils down to Ferelden > Orlais.

 

The empire may be more powerful, but 'tis a silly place with strange hats, stranger accents and strangest people.

[KaiserShep]

I think it really just boils down to Ferelden > Orlais.

 

The empire may be more powerful, but 'tis a silly place with strange hats, stranger accents and strangest people.

 

 

To hell with any nation that likes to infuse misery and despair into their food. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

Yeah, she pays lip service to the idea of everyone having had a different circle experience, but then she goes right on to labeling all the rebel mages selfish malcontents resorting to violence for their own gain.

 

Damn, Vivienne, that's a harsh way to describe someone who just wanted to not get raped anymore.

 

She has spent her entire life trying to escape the restrictions of the Circle. She just uses connections instead of explosives.

Not to mention how she acts as though the mages had absolutely no reason to even consider rebellion. Funny how she forgets how the templars were turning the circles into actual prison but she didn't have to worry as she never had to live in the circle during Asunder.

 

Also, she acts as though the mages' first instinct was to rebel. Funny how she ignores the mages holding a vote which was stopped by the templars who proceeded to arrest the first enchanters, and the majority only agreed to rebel AFTER the templars already went after them with the belief being just giving up would result at best in the circles being prisons while at worst they'd all be killed or made tranquil. 

[sniper_arrow]

I like Vivienne, but I understand why everyone hates her.

 

The only thing lacking is her involvement with WEWH. She would've shined there since she knew the Council of Heralds and has a much closer connection to Celene and the court. 

 

Also, as mentioned by others, she does care about the welfare of the mages, but as long as it benefits her in the long run. She's tricky that way.

[Patricia08]

Are you seriously so naive?

 

Well i guess you are right that i am naive

[sniper_arrow]

 

Well i guess i do not see it like that i don't see the sarcasm in it not when it comes to such a delicate subject i have never experienced that kind of sarcasm before in my life so you are right i am naive  

 

So this morning i was thinking to myself i will make this last post and then i will end this chapter so here i go first i have a confession to make that this is my first time that i joined a forum i have never joined another forum before and also i have never joined facebook , twitter and what else is out there before nowadays so a total noob and i mean a TOTAL NOOB so someone send me a picture of a woman a black woman with a t- shirt that says "by hater" and someone ( i don't know if that was you or maybe someone else ) also said that it was a resemblance of Vivienne i myself did not see the resemblance i see a black woman with that t-shirt

  

So now let's put you in my shoes i don't think they will fit ( i have tiny feet ) but let's say they do and they fit like a glove and someone would sent you ( the total noob and naive person ) a picture of a woman a black woman with a t-shirt that says "by hater" how would you react then but i guess you would never admit that you could be probably a little bit wrong and that i maybe could be a teeny tiny bit right

 

But i don't think i can win this either way and that i am alone in this either way so let's end this chapter you may off course reply to this post you may off course defend yourself 

  

And to the ones out there who were saying that this OP should not be here i would say that i a total noob do not agree with those guys that with nearly 5000 views and 220 replies that it is not such a bad OP or is it ? but then again a total noob is saying that

 

 

Welcome to the Internet. Hating Vivienne should be the least of your worries.

[Gothfather]

Where did he say that you're a racist? Nowhere does anyone imply you're racist. That image does NOT say you're a racist, it's just mocking her haters, you're seeing things that aren't there and getting overly-defense for nothing.

 

 

 

I'm trying to calm people down who read and see **** that isn't there, my tatas are already hakunad.

 

You really have to wonder when people start being hyper sensitive to things that they have to go out of their way to make sure people don't think they are a bigot. People's default setting is not everyone is a bigot unless they prove they aren't yet certain people on this thread seem to be ever so worried that they are being seen as bigots. I wonder why that is? hmmm They seem to keep going on about it too. Like it is REALLY important because to say something. why? Are they worried their actions and general posts wont make it self evident they are not bigots? So they have to go out of their way to try and stem the tide?

 

Seems very odd.

[ThePhoenixKing]

Wynne had integrity.

 

She advocated for the system like Vivienne, but unlike Vivienne she immersed herself in it. She didn't try to escape it, never ran off to her boyfriends estate. She spent her entire life in the Circle, trying to improve it.

 

As much as I disagree with her views, she didn't just talk the talk. She backed that **** up.

 

Agreed. Like her or hate her, Wynne practiced what she preached, And if you didn't like what she had to say, Origins at least gave you the opportunity to call her out on it, That's really the worst part about Vivienne; not only is she such a conceited and awful person, she's pretty much shielded from all opposition you might want to give her. With every other companion in prior games, you had the chance to tell them where to stick it if you so desired, but not Vivienne. It also certainly doesn't do anything to dispel the notion that the Inquisitor is a glorified patsy either, being lead around by the nose by all and sundry.

[Iakus]

Wynne had integrity.

 

She advocated for the system like Vivienne, but unlike Vivienne she immersed herself in it. She didn't try to escape it, never ran off to her boyfriends estate. She spent her entire life in the Circle, trying to improve it.

 

As much as I disagree with her views, she didn't just talk the talk. She backed that **** up.

I don't think Vivienne tried to escape it.  To the contrary I believe she strove to achieve change from within.

 

She was, after all, the First Enchanter of Monstimmard, the only Circle to stay loyal.  If she was some absentee leader who spent all her time at court, I would assume they'd jump ship at the first opportunity to get away from the scaaaaaary Templars.  

 

I suspect she made sure her mages were treated well and the Templars stayed honest.

[Lazarillo]

Agreed. Like her or hate her, Wynne practiced what she preached, And if you didn't like what she had to say, Origins at least gave you the opportunity to call her out on it, That's really the worst part about Vivienne; not only is she such a conceited and awful person, she's pretty much shielded from all opposition you might want to give her. With every other companion in prior games, you had the chance to tell them where to stick it if you so desired, but not Vivienne. It also certainly doesn't do anything to dispel the notion that the Inquisitor is a glorified patsy either, being lead around by the nose by all and sundry.

Honestly, I thought Wynne was at least a wee bit hypocritical too.  It felt a little annoying when I played a Mage Warden and she kept trying to tell me how great the Circle was and how much good my character could do by returning there, when the dialogue around her makes it clear she cared, but never enough to keep her from always going after some grand new adventure.  Now, part of that may be because she knew she didn't have much longer to live, and, compared to Vivienne, Wynne at least did make it clear she did care about others, even if she wasn't quite as good about putting it into action sometimes.

 

So Wynne maybe didn't always practice what she preached, but she at least believed in it.  Vivienne doesn't believe in anything but her own sense of self-entitlement.

• Solas: You could use those skills to improve the lives of your fellow mages. Instead you have done nothing, save consolidate your own power.
• Vivienne: What if keeping my power might in fact improve the lives of my fellow mages?
• Solas: You honestly believe the world is better off with you setting its course?
• Vivienne: I need not be in spotlight. But after watching others try and fail, why should I not have a turn?

For Vivi, it's not about what she could do to help others.  She just wants power for her own sake.  Wynne at least wanted to do good.

 

And doubly so, the fact that, as mentioned, you can never call her out on this, and the fact that she does in fact come out on top no matter what, is quite disappointing.

[Iakus]

Honestly, I thought Wynne was at least a wee bit hypocritical too.  It felt a little annoying when I played a Mage Warden and she kept trying to tell me how great the Circle was and how much good my character could do by returning there, when the dialogue around her makes it clear she cared, but never enough to keep her from always going after some grand new adventure.  Now, part of that may be because she knew she didn't have much longer to live, and, compared to Vivienne, Wynne at least did make it clear she did care about others, even if she wasn't quite as good about putting it into action sometimes.

 

So Wynne maybe didn't always practice what she preached, but she at least believed in it.  Vivienne doesn't believe in anything but her own sense of self-entitlement.

• Solas: You could use those skills to improve the lives of your fellow mages. Instead you have done nothing, save consolidate your own power.
• Vivienne: What if keeping my power might in fact improve the lives of my fellow mages?
• Solas: You honestly believe the world is better off with you setting its course?
• Vivienne: I need not be in spotlight. But after watching others try and fail, why should I not have a turn?

For Vivi, it's not about what she could do to help others.  She just wants power for her own sake.  Wynne at least wanted to do good.

 

And doubly so, the fact that, as mentioned, you can never call her out on this, and the fact that she does in fact come out on top no matter what, is quite disappointing.

Actually in that very conversation, she states that her having power "might improve the lives of my fellow mages"

 

Whether you agree with her or not, she does believe she knows how to improve the lot of her fellow mages better than others who "try and fail"  

 

*coughFionacough*

[Lazarillo]

Actually in that very conversation, she states that her having power "might improve the lives of my fellow mages"

 

Whether you agree with her or not, she does believe she knows how to improve the lot of her fellow mages better than others who "try and fail" 

She says it, but then as soon as she's asked to actually back it up, she deflects the question and makes it about her again.  I feel like that reveals what she truly is.  She'll talk all day long about how she would improve the lives of mages, but she shows no actual plan for making that happen, nor a desire to actually do so for anyone but herself.

[Korva]

As someone who used her as my main mage for my entire first playthrough, I was very disappointed with her role in the story. Considering her big thing is supposed to be political intrigue and maneuvering, she does nothing of value. She sits at Skyhold and you are supposed to headcanon that she is doing useful things. Wicked Hearts would have been a great mission to incorporate her. But in a cast of mostly unnecessary people, she ends up feeling the most poorly leveraged.

 

Yes. She's not even the biggest wasted opportunity in this game, but she is a big wasted opportunity on so many levels, and that is a bleeding shame. Given her background, she could/should have been the #1 plot-critical NPC, yet Bioware never uses her in any way, shape or form. Vivienne has what we need to close the Breach. Vivienne could get us into Halamshiral. Vivienne is a political heavyweight with knowledge and connections that probably rival Leliana's or Josie's. Why the eff did the writers create a character like that and then went on to so blatantly, utterly ignore her? It makes no sense at all.

 

The fact that she isn't allowed to actually bring anything to the table for the player while aggressively and untouchably pursuing her own ends behind the scenes, combined with her divisive views and personality and some pretty crappy writing (especially of the "taking away player agency" kind), ends up feeling like an invitation to loathe her in a way that no other character gets treated. Is she arrogant? Sure. So are some other companions. Does she have some shitty views? Sure. So do some other companions. Does she (almost) always "win" arguments, one-sidedly dominate every conversation and otherwise make both other NPCs and especially the PC feel like spineless, powerless simpletons? Sure. Again, so do some other companions. But they get painted in a far more sympathetic light than she does, and that really bugs me.

 

I had high hopes for this character even though I didn't expect to be BFFs with her or agree with her on everything. She makes some very good points about the risks of magic, points which are otherwise completely ignored by the plot and most other characters despite being surrounded by constant fallout from the horrors that only uncontrolled magic can create. That too makes no sense whatsoever and feels like another way in which she is undermined and isolated as a convenient punching bag for players who want to see the mage issue as black-and-white (which is frankly boring and shallow IMO).

 

I just wish she had been presented in if not a more sympathetic then at least a more fair and balanced light. More obviously caring for the safety of both mages and non-mages, more useful to the Inquisition, less disruptive towards other companions (a political mastermind should be able to play nice even with people she dislikes and see good reasons to do so, too) ... while retaining the go-getter, look-out-for-number-one, goal-driven and extremely confident/arrogant aspects that undeniably are part of her personality.

[Iakus]

She says it, but then as soon as she's asked to actually back it up, she deflects the question and makes it about her again.  I feel like that reveals what she truly is.  She'll talk all day long about how she would improve the lives of mages, but she shows no actual plan for making that happen, nor a desire to actually do so for anyone but herself.

Cassandra: You would prefer to have the templars return to guarding the circles, Vivienne?
Vivienne: Of course, my dear.  They need better oversight, clearly, but one does not throw away a tool because it was misused.
Cassandra: Few mages would ask for templars in the circle.
Vivienne: Speak to Ferelden's first enchanter.  You might be surprised.  When abominations ravaged your tower, suddenly the world holds far too few templars.

 

Vivienne: You must see the value in restoring the circles, Cassandra.
Cassandra: Provided they fulfill their purpose.  Too many have suffered since the mage rebellion began, but we cannot ignore the abuses that prompted it. Without change, we risk repeating the events at Kirkwall.
Vivienne: Or recreating its opposite.  An overly lenient circle is a comparable threat.  Kirkwall is lamentable, but it was the misuse of power, not restrictions, that led to the first Blight.

[Lazarillo]

Fair enough, I never got either of those, so didn't know to look for 'em.  It still feels like a lot of hot air to me, since it's still not really explaining how Mages as a whole benefit, though.

 

Honestly, to give as much benefit of the doubt as possible, I do acknowledge that in Divine Vivi's reborn Circle, it's mentioned that Mages "move up the ranks quickly" or something very similar to that, but as Vivi is a political animal, it's hard to give her too much credit for that until/unless we see that that system isn't just rigged in favor of those she approves of.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Cassandra: You would prefer to have the templars return to guarding the circles, Vivienne?
Vivienne: Of course, my dear.  They need better oversight, clearly, but one does not throw away a tool because it was misused.
Cassandra: Few mages would ask for templars in the circle.
Vivienne: Speak to Ferelden's first enchanter.  You might be surprised.  When abominations ravaged your tower, suddenly the world holds far too few templars.

 

Vivienne: You must see the value in restoring the circles, Cassandra.
Cassandra: Provided they fulfill their purpose.  Too many have suffered since the mage rebellion began, but we cannot ignore the abuses that prompted it. Without change, we risk repeating the events at Kirkwall.
Vivienne: Or recreating its opposite.  An overly lenient circle is a comparable threat.  Kirkwall is lamentable, but it was the misuse of power, not restrictions, that led to the first Blight.

Yet if she's Divine, Cassandra straight up calls her a tyrant and leaves the Exalted Council because Vivienne is using the Chant to suit her own purposes.

 

That doesn't speak highly of someone who supposedly has people's best interests at heart.

[The Baconer]

 

• Solas: You honestly believe the world is better off with you setting its course?
• Vivienne: I need not be in spotlight. But after watching others try and fail, why should I not have a turn?

 

I like that way of thinking! It's so northern. 

[Iakus]

Fair enough, I never got either of those, so didn't know to look for 'em.  It still feels like a lot of hot air to me, since it's still not really explaining how Mages as a whole benefit, though.

 

Honestly, to give as much benefit of the doubt as possible, I do acknowledge that in Divine Vivi's reborn Circle, it's mentioned that Mages "move up the ranks quickly" or something very similar to that, but as Vivi is a political animal, it's hard to give her too much credit for that until/unless we see that that system isn't just rigged in favor of those she approves of.

Vivienne is well aware of the flaws in the Circle system.  But she is convinced it can work if you weed out those who abuse their power or authority.  The benefit for mages would be, as you say, the granting of more freedom and responsibility.  In short, they get more of the perks Vivienne herself enjoyed, as well as the Circles becoming more of a refuge for mages to study and be safe from muggles with pitchforks.

 

Whether you believe that system is workable is another question.  And the fact that Vivienne is so arrogant that, as Solas puts it "Enchanter, any pride demon you met would just walk away, shaking its head and laughing uncontrollably" that it makes people instinctively hate her doesn't help her cause.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Fair enough, I never got either of those, so didn't know to look for 'em.  It still feels like a lot of hot air to me, since it's still not really explaining how Mages as a whole benefit, though.

 

Honestly, to give as much benefit of the doubt as possible, I do acknowledge that in Divine Vivi's reborn Circle, it's mentioned that Mages "move up the ranks quickly" or something very similar to that, but as Vivi is a political animal, it's hard to give her too much credit for that until/unless we see that that system isn't just rigged in favor of those she approves of.

Considering that Divine Viv's ending pretty much says all true power lies with her, I'd say that yeah, mages only move up in her version of the Circle when they are suck ups

[Iakus]

Considering that Divine Viv's ending pretty much says all true power lies with her, I'd say that yeah, mages only move up in her version of the Circle when they are suck ups

Except it doesn't qualify that.

[AlanC9]

Vivienne is well aware of the flaws in the Circle system.  But she is convinced it can work if you weed out those who abuse their power or authority.  The benefit for mages would be, as you say, the granting of more freedom and responsibility.  In short, they get more of the perks Vivienne herself enjoyed, as well as the Circles becoming more of a refuge for mages to study and be safe from muggles with pitchforks.
 
Whether you believe that system is workable is another question.  And the fact that Vivienne is so arrogant that, as Solas puts it "Enchanter, any pride demon you met would just walk away, shaking its head and laughing uncontrollably" that it makes people instinctively hate her doesn't help her cause.

This is actually a fairly weird debate, come to think of it. Vivienne stands out because she's not willing to overthrow one of the basic institutions of her society.

[Iakus]

This is actually a fairly weird debate, come to think of it. Vivienne stands out because she's not willing to overthrow one of the basic institutions of her society.

I suspect given the reaction to Anders in DA2, Bioware decided to create the "anti-Anders" and see what happened.

[sjsharp2011]

My only problem with Viv is the constant use of saying 'my dear'. I didn't mind her dialogue when she was talking with other companions.

Indeed it's almost as bad as Garruds with his calibrations or Liara with "by the goddess". But to me that adds to their charm I don't tend to use Viv that much though althoufg I have always recruyited her as I always do with everyone. Solas tensd to be my go to mage when I'm not playing as one myself. Although I have to admit I've been using her quite a bit in my current run.

[Lazarillo]

Vivienne is well aware of the flaws in the Circle system.  But she is convinced it can work if you weed out those who abuse their power or authority.  The benefit for mages would be, as you say, the granting of more freedom and responsibility.  In short, they get more of the perks Vivienne herself enjoyed, as well as the Circles becoming more of a refuge for mages to study and be safe from muggles with pitchforks.

 

Whether you believe that system is workable is another question.  And the fact that Vivienne is so arrogant that, as Solas puts it "Enchanter, any pride demon you met would just walk away, shaking its head and laughing uncontrollably" that it makes people instinctively hate her doesn't help her cause.

I think the issue is one of whys and hows.  Vivi isn't so much interested in making sure people don't abuse their power or authority.  She is only interested in making sure they don't abuse her with their power or authority.  But she makes it abundantly clear that she should be allowed to do whatever she wants with authority just because she's Vivienne. 

[Iakus]

I think the issue is one of whys and hows.  Vivi isn't so much interested in making sure people don't abuse their power or authority.  She is only interested in making sure they don't abuse her with their power or authority.  But she makes it abundantly clear that she should be allowed to do whatever she wants with authority just because she's Vivienne. 

Self-preservation is certainly a big part of it.  But more than anything else, I think what Vivienne wants is stability.  That is something the Circles, when properly run ( to her mind) provide.  It creates an area where mages can be safe and belong.  Where they are taught how to control their power and not fall for demonic tricks.  And if something does go wrong, trained professionals are there to minimize collateral damage.  This isn't just for her, this is for magic in general.  

 

Vivienne: So, apostate.  If the Circle is such a failure, what would be your solution? Would you have your fellow mages live among the people, unguarded, unwatched?
Solas: Yes.
Vivienne: And when they became possessed, or use their power to harm?
Solas: I would kill them.  Magic is more elegant than a blade or a bow, but a murderer remains a murderer.
Vivienne: So you alone would pass judgment, repay murder with murder, or do we open this up to mobs and vigilantes?  If you're going to dispense judgment upon violent mages yourself, you'll need eternal life and omniscience.  If only there were individuals dedicated to finding and eliminating such criminals. Perhaps they might help?
Solas: I am certain they would.  Until black and white distinctions perverted their simple minds.