263 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

I think the issue is one of whys and hows.  Vivi isn't so much interested in making sure people don't abuse their power or authority.  She is only interested in making sure they don't abuse her with their power or authority.  But she makes it abundantly clear that she should be allowed to do whatever she wants with authority just because she's Vivienne. 

 

And what power, precisely, does Vivienne abuse? Or rules break? Much like the frequent declarations of her untrustworthiness and betrayals, I've never heard or seen much. She's been called merciless, but hardly a rogue power, and even Cassandra's denounciation falls short considering (a) there's no example given, ( no clear means of who or how she's supposed to be tyrannizing, and © Cassandra will not criticize bloody-murderer Leliana who is a tyrant on the Sunburst Throne.

 

Vivienne's ambitious, but she's earned all her power legitimately in the form that the society deems acceptable and legitimate- the Game. She doesn't break the rules of the Game, nor has she betrayed those above or below her for personal advantage, nor as she even involved those who were uninvolved or did not involve themselves in the game.

 

 

Vivienne consistently approves defending the innocent from the abuses of power. She doesn't go about involving the uninvolved in the power games of The Game.

[Dean_the_Young]

Agreed. It's her hypocrisy on the subject of mage rights that really gets to me. If Vivienne showed the slightest willingness to live by the rules she demanded for everyone else (a la Wynne), then at the very least, that's something about her I could respect. But no, she's all for reestablishing the Circles, but has no intention of setting foot inside one herself, or being subject to its rules.

 

Except Vivienne is subject to the rules- and got to where she is by playing the same rules that everyone else had opportunity and access to. The position of court enchanter is hardly heriditary. The ability to build alliances hardly unique. And the favor- and the influence- of the nobility hardly monopolized.

 

Vivienne succeeded within the system, not outside of it. She rose within the context of the circle without even the benefit of a noble family to pull strings. She had the same starting spot as every other apprentice, and applied herself, and rose to the top of the power structure on her merit and achieved a position open to everyone else. And when she did get it- and this was when the Court Enchanter was powerless- she worked and made it a position of real influence, playing by the same rules as everyone else. Vivienne didn't mind control her enemies, or set random nobles aflame, or win influence by great feats of magic. Everything she did was in competition with other people who could have risen up instead of her had they played better or differently. She didn't even get as far as she did by sleeping with her lover- Duke or not, world of Thedas indicates it was hardly a beneficial relationship.

 

Vivienne is the model of a self-made success story. There's certainly criticism to be had with that- that not everyone can be successful, that not everyone is capable, that not everyone can be lucky- but the idea that Vivienne is somehow separate from the system and thus a hypocrite vastly undersells her own achievements. Vivienne rose to the limits available within the Circle system, expanded those limits, and would further increase the opportunities in the context of that system if she could (and does if she can).

 

Vivienne doesn't keep or demand a system in which she's the only mage who can succeed. When Vivienne gains power, she makes changes that allow many, many more to succeed as well- with more access into the power structure than any other Divine is mentioned, including Leliana.

[Dean_the_Young]

Wynne had integrity.

 

She advocated for the system like Vivienne, but unlike Vivienne she immersed herself in it. She didn't try to escape it, never ran off to her boyfriends estate. She spent her entire life in the Circle, trying to improve it.

 

As much as I disagree with her views, she didn't just talk the talk. She backed that **** up.

 

And Vivienne didn't? To say that Wynn spent her entire life in the Circle as if she literally stayed in the tower the entire time is to ignore the times, and the adventures, she had getting away with it. Wynn earned her permission to leave in the context of the Circle's politics, and was hardly shy about using it- hence why even as an old woman she's off to Ostagar, and then the Warden, and then Amaranthine, and then politicing in Asunder- and that's just the last few years of her life.

 

Vivienne is a career Circle politician who got her privileges within the same context. She never escaped or ran off from that, even when her political circles changed- she was still a Circle Mage, and she still cheated the chastity rules much like Wynn did. She may have enjoyed her privileges of trust and position... but so what? Wynn was hardly miserable leaving the Circles and everyone else behind to go galavanting and adventuring with the prospect of political power and influence for her cause as a prize.

 

The question of if Vivienne just talks the talk must be judged on whether Vivienne practices what she preaches and follows through with what she advocates. And the answer would have to be... yes, she does. She expects strict self-discipline, and practices it. She advocates playing within the system and the status quo, and by gosh does she do that. She does not advocate that every mage be quivering and abused by templars and live in fear of being raped or slaughtered for no reason... and she does not do that either. She is merciless to her foes... but that is exactly what she expects, and exactly what she indicates, and so that too is consistent.

 

When Vivienne talks without power, she advocates restraining the Templars, keeping the Circles disciplined, and reforming the system to give mages more of a role. That is, somehow to everyone's repeated forgetfulness, exactly what she does if she gains political power.

[robertthebard]

And what power, precisely, does Vivienne abuse? Or rules break? Much like the frequent declarations of her untrustworthiness and betrayals, I've never heard or seen much. She's been called merciless, but hardly a rogue power, and even Cassandra's denounciation falls short considering (a) there's no example given, ( no clear means of who or how she's supposed to be tyrannizing, and © Cassandra will not criticize bloody-murderer Leliana who is a tyrant on the Sunburst Throne.

 

Vivienne's ambitious, but she's earned all her power legitimately in the form that the society deems acceptable and legitimate- the Game. She doesn't break the rules of the Game, nor has she betrayed those above or below her for personal advantage, nor as she even involved those who were uninvolved or did not involve themselves in the game.

 

 

Vivienne consistently approves defending the innocent from the abuses of power. She doesn't go about involving the uninvolved in the power games of The Game.

I'll just run with "being elected Divine in the first place" even though I'm not sure I can really blame her for that.  Well, I guess I really can, since it smacks of manipulating really desperate people enough to get a Mage ruling over people.  I'm wondering if Eamon is considering putting Connor on the throne now, and if Viv will have any objections to another mage ruling over man?

[Xerrai]

Except Vivienne is subject to the rules- and got to where she is by playing the same rules that everyone else had opportunity and access to. The position of court enchanter is hardly heriditary. The ability to build alliances hardly unique. And the favor- and the influence- of the nobility hardly monopolized.

 

Vivienne succeeded within the system, not outside of it. She rose within the context of the circle without even the benefit of a noble family to pull strings. She had the same starting spot as every other apprentice, and applied herself, and rose to the top of the power structure on her merit and achieved a position open to everyone else. And when she did get it- and this was when the Court Enchanter was powerless- she worked and made it a position of real influence, playing by the same rules as everyone else. Vivienne didn't mind control her enemies, or set random nobles aflame, or win influence by great feats of magic. Everything she did was in competition with other people who could have risen up instead of her had they played better or differently. She didn't even get as far as she did by sleeping with her lover- Duke or not, world of Thedas indicates it was hardly a beneficial relationship.

 

Vivienne is the model of a self-made success story. There's certainly criticism to be had with that- that not everyone can be successful, that not everyone is capable, that not everyone can be lucky- but the idea that Vivienne is somehow separate from the system and thus a hypocrite vastly undersells her own achievements. Vivienne rose to the limits available within the Circle system, expanded those limits, and would further increase the opportunities in the context of that system if she could (and does if she can).

 

Vivienne doesn't keep or demand a system in which she's the only mage who can succeed. When Vivienne gains power, she makes changes that allow many, many more to succeed as well- with more access into the power structure than any other Divine is mentioned, including Leliana.

Despite how true everything you say is, I think you are slightly misinterpreting what some of us mean when we say she's "outside the system". We don't mean the Circle system overall--she has made it clear that she actively participates in its higher tiers. We mean that she is far removed from the 'average' mage and their lifestyle that it is highly dubious as to weather she can properly comprehend the issues within the Circle system seeing as she's so above them all in terms of position.

 

Perhaps at one point she could easily relate to her mage peers, and indeed she can still rightfully claim that she does relate to them in a certain degree still. But by this point she is all but laden with (rightfully earned) privileges to the point where her circumstances could hardly be called typical of a Circle mage.

 

Where she can reside in villas and other housings outside the Circle proper, most mages are relegated to staying inside only the Circles. Where she can openly and confidently mingle with non-mage populations, many mages are sequestered to where they only have other mages for company. Where she can walk roads and streets without Templars on constant patrol, many mages have to deal with Templar scrutiny for virtually every hour of every day. Not every Circle is that bad, of course, but it still stands that she is all but removed from the typical culture that makes the daily live of the average mage.

 

The claim of hypocrisy mostly comes from how she claims that mages are being unreasonable in trying to obtain certain freedoms while she herself already has those freedoms. Freedoms she earned/politically maneuvered for precisely because the Circle system was so stifling to her.

[XEternalXDreamsX]

When I befriend her (agree about circles, ect), ally with Templars, and throw my support for her becoming Divine.. it was a great friendship. She was extremely nice, and we had no disagreements. She got what she wanted while my PC got what he wanted.

When I ally with Mages, and try to get Leliana as Divine.. she is very passive aggressive and quite distant. She usually forms a Circle against Leliana anyway so her approval is pretty pointless.

[AntiChri5]

This is actually a fairly weird debate, come to think of it. Vivienne stands out because she's not willing to overthrow one of the basic institutions of her society.

Conservatively championing the old system immediately after it fails in every way possible is how I would have put it.

[AedanStarfang]

RPing as a Rogue or a Warrior type Vivienne and I get on like old friends, but when playing as a mage (unless it's a Qunari whose customs are different) I can't seem to ever agree with Madam De Fer. 

[dragonflight288]

Not a big fan of freedom of speach and dissenting opinions by uppity black women, eh?

 

Or at least not when they're the wrong ones.

 

What does skin color have to do with freedom of speech?

 

As far as I can tell in Dragon Age, the only racism that really truly exists is actual races, humans to elves, elves to humans, dwarves to anyone on the surface. 

[Korva]

And what power, precisely, does Vivienne abuse? Or rules break?

 

For one, she tries to hijack the Sunburst Throne despite the fact that mages are barred from joining the priesthood. A female human Inquisitor can ask why she can't become Divine herself, and if you play a mage you're told that you would never be accepted because the Chantry might as well go submit to Tevinter then. Yet here's Vivienne doing the exact same thing. This is probably my #1 beef with her because it shows a very hypocritical "no one tells me what to do" attitude that is so damn dangerous, especially in a mage. It also, IMO, actually flies in the face of acceptance for more mage freedom because here's a prominent mage making a no-holds-barred grasp for personal power instead of practicing restraint and respect. That has Tevinter written all over it and should never fly with either the Chantry or the nobility or the common people.

 

But hey, Bioware freely admitted that the Divine election subplot was based on drama potential, so in-world logic went out the window at the word go anyway ...

 

The cutscene where we meet her is also a blatant abuse of power and magic, potentially even murder, and no doubt set up by Vivienne herself to both make herself look extra-awesome in front of the Herald and to get back at that guy. This should have repercussions (especially if she murders him, in which case the player should also feel the backlash) and, again, is not something I can imagine to be conductive to a greater acceptance of mages.

 

If she was shown to practice what she preaches, her words would have more weight and she'd be a character more people could if not like then probably at least respect.

 

She doesn't break the rules of the Game

 

What rules? The only rule it appears to have is "anything goes, as long as you win". There's nothing admirable or honorable in it, nothing that protects the common people, nothing that forbids betrayal of allies and family, nothing that places restraints on the ones who have or seek power. It is an utterly horrible environment that has no doubt had a strong influence on her personality.

 

Vivienne does have positive moments, but you have to pay attention and look for them (sometimes in contexts you really wouldn't expect to find them in). That's fine, in theory, because not every character should be an open book and it can be much more satisfying to befriend someone who doesn't offer themselves on a silver platter. But the deck feels stacked against her in ways that it isn't for other characters, and that does bug me.

[Korva]

she was still a Circle Mage, and she still cheated the chastity rules much like Wynn did.

 

As far as I know there are no chastity rules for mages, or templars for that matter, only for clergy. So her relationship with Bastien is actually perfectly fine both by the standards of Orlesian society and by Circle law.

 

We mean that she is far removed from the 'average' mage and their lifestyle that it is highly dubious as to weather she can properly comprehend the issues within the Circle system seeing as she's so above them all in terms of position.

 

She's still infinitely closer to Circle life and to that "average" mage than any other character is. The one who trails her in second place on that score is actually Cullen, who has spent much his life in Circles and seen abuses both by mages and of mages.

 

I'm in no way defending or excusing any such abuses, or saying that a lot of things don't need to be improved, but it does bug me sometimes when Vivienne or other pro-Circle mages who speak of being saved by templars or having a comparatively good life in the Circle are dismissed and/or disparaged, yet anti-Circle views -- even when held by complete outsiders -- are treated as "proof" of how utterly and wholly evil the whole system supposedly is (and often of how the Chantry and the templars should all be destroyed along with it).

 

It really isn't an easy black-and-white issue.

Modifié par Korva, 20 février 2016 - 11:17 .

[Shechinah]

As far as I know there are no chastity rules for mages, or templars for that matter, only for clergy. So her relationship with Bastien is actually perfectly fine both by the standards of Orlesian society and by Circle law.

 

According to Wynne, relationships between mages are discouraged by the Chantry but whether that means the relationships are explicitly forbidden as relationships between templars and mages are, I do not know. She specifically uses the word discouraged as oppose to forbidden.
 

[Dean_the_Young]

I'll just run with "being elected Divine in the first place" even though I'm not sure I can really blame her for that.  Well, I guess I really can, since it smacks of manipulating really desperate people enough to get a Mage ruling over people.  I'm wondering if Eamon is considering putting Connor on the throne now, and if Viv will have any objections to another mage ruling over man?

 

And what, exactly, is wrong with being elected Divine?

 

Unless you're the sort who believes that mages should be disqualified from any power by blood, being elected by mundanes- the same mundanes who otherwise elect Casandra or Leliana- is about as good as one can hope for. Vivienne is not being made ruler because she is a mage. She is not inheriting it to continue a dynasty. And she will (presumably) not be handing it off to a child of her own.

 

The danger of magocracy comes from the oligarchy of mage interests being prioritized. Vivienne, isn't.

 

 

 

 

Despite how true everything you say is, I think you are slightly misinterpreting what some of us mean when we say she's "outside the system". We don't mean the Circle system overall--she has made it clear that she actively participates in its higher tiers. We mean that she is far removed from the 'average' mage and their lifestyle that it is highly dubious as to weather she can properly comprehend the issues within the Circle system seeing as she's so above them all in terms of position.

 

Perhaps at one point she could easily relate to her mage peers, and indeed she can still rightfully claim that she does relate to them in a certain degree still. But by this point she is all but laden with (rightfully earned) privileges to the point where her circumstances could hardly be called typical of a Circle mage.

 

So what? Where does this argument end? That because she's obtained power, she's illegitimate and knows nothing and her views are inherently wrong because she magically forgot the same foundational experiences all her peers had?

 

How can any authority figure claim to by 'typical'? Leliana, the Orlesian Bard and spy master of one of the more influential groups of Thedas? Casandra, professional thug for a more moral sort of ruler? Do they live like the typical people? Share the experiences? Has Leliana ever lived in an Orphanage, survived with the Carta, or ever truly been weak for much of her life?

 

 

 

 

Where she can reside in villas and other housings outside the Circle proper, most mages are relegated to staying inside only the Circles. Where she can openly and confidently mingle with non-mage populations, many mages are sequestered to where they only have other mages for company. Where she can walk roads and streets without Templars on constant patrol, many mages have to deal with Templar scrutiny for virtually every hour of every day. Not every Circle is that bad, of course, but it still stands that she is all but removed from the typical culture that makes the daily live of the average mage.

 

 

The average mage can work towards such freedoms and privileges, because the system does allow you to earn them.

 

You don't need to be a Court enchanter to do so- though you could try, if you were willing to take risks like Vivienne was. You can be like Wynn, or the botanist, or White Spire mages who were allowed to go shopping, or the retiree who got Shale. Even in Kirkwall, worst of the worst, Bethany can attend some of Hawke's adventures.

 

 

We can certainly say that the average mage doesn't get enough of these opportunities- but you'll be hard pressed to find Vivienne arguing against that, and with power she certainly expands the scope of their opportunities in ways that even Leliana doesn't.

 

 

 

 

The claim of hypocrisy mostly comes from how she claims that mages are being unreasonable in trying to obtain certain freedoms while she herself already has those freedoms. Freedoms she earned/politically maneuvered for precisely because the Circle system was so stifling to her.

 

 

Then people claiming hypocrisy are using the wrong word at best, and deliberatly misrepresenting Vivienne as worst.

 

 

There is nothing hypocritical in Vivienne's criticisms if she abides by the standard she set. Since Vivienne's criticisms come largely in how the rebel mages go about their rebellion- and she doesn't not do the same thing in the same way- there is not an inconsistency. Vivienne's position is not 'shut up and be happy with what you have.' She never tells people to not work to better their prospects. She criticizes them for disregarding the views of others (which she abides by her adherance to The Game), for putting emotion over sense (which sees the mages end up as they do), and for being woefully indisciplined (which they are).

 

Nor does her being a success story render her irrelevant to the typical mage- rather, she disproves the opposite, since she's what the typical mage could be because she started from the same. Vivienne is dangerous to the people who claim that rebellion was necessity because power, privileges, and freedoms couldn't come from within the system. Vivienne is a disproof of all three- that the mages can gather political power, that they could gain privileges and freedoms by playing within the rules, and that they don't need to overthrow the system to do so. And, if she gains power, she continues to demonstrate that.

 

 

Conservatively championing the old system immediately after it fails in every way possible is how I would have put it.

 

Hardly every possible way, and hardly disproving the old ways. The mage rebellion was a significant event, but also a flop- within a few years, a continent-wide uprising was soundly beaten and hiding behind the walls of its last protector as peace talks were under way. The Mage Rebellion was over and it's fate was back under the influence of the Chantry and the Kingdoms, no matter how the Conclave talked. Either the Mages formally surrendered to the Chantry, informally submitted to Ferelden, or they were put to the sword.

 

Considering how often uprisings and rebellions occur historically, the Circle system's design, even in its worst-case crash, was largely self-correcting and self-containing.

 

Moreover, Vivienne's conservative isn't stasis of the contexts that broke the Circles- she approves of reigning in the Templars, and reforming the politics.

[Dean_the_Young]

For one, she tries to hijack the Sunburst Throne despite the fact that mages are barred from joining the priesthood. A female human Inquisitor can ask why she can't become Divine herself, and if you play a mage you're told that you would never be accepted because the Chantry might as well go submit to Tevinter then. Yet here's Vivienne doing the exact same thing. This is probably my #1 beef with her because it shows a very hypocritical "no one tells me what to do" attitude that is so damn dangerous, especially in a mage. It also, IMO, actually flies in the face of acceptance for more mage freedom because here's a prominent mage making a no-holds-barred grasp for personal power instead of practicing restraint and respect. That has Tevinter written all over it and should never fly with either the Chantry or the nobility or the common people.

 

But hey, Bioware freely admitted that the Divine election subplot was based on drama potential, so in-world logic went out the window at the word go anyway ...

 

Is this hypocrisy, or just leveraging different political positions? Remember that Vivienne is also self-interested, and is angling for the same seat that the Inquisitor is nosing about.

 

There's also the point of what, exactly, is hypocritical here. Vivienne never tells people not to push higher- she just does it within the system that already exists. Vivienne gets power by playing within the accepted norms of society- the Game. She plays, and wins, by the same rules of everyone else. Even though she has magic, she uses it for flash, not substance- she doesn't do what Tevinter does, and make power games out of blood magic and contests of strength.

 

No, the game isn't benevolent- no, it isn't so different from what Tevinter plays- but Vivienne plays by Orlesian rules. She doesn't appeal to divine favor, or magical hands, and certainly not blood magic.

 

 

 

 

 

The cutscene where we meet her is also a blatant abuse of power and magic, potentially even murder, and no doubt set up by Vivienne herself to both make herself look extra-awesome in front of the Herald and to get back at that guy. This should have repercussions (especially if she murders him, in which case the player should also feel the backlash) and, again, is not something I can imagine to be conductive to a greater acceptance of mages.

 

If she was shown to practice what she preaches, her words would have more weight and she'd be a character more people could if not like then probably at least respect.

 

 

 

Does Vivienne ever preach that magic should never be used against mundanes?

 

Vivienne's entry is flashy, but it's mostly show- and she plays it by Orlesian rules, and Orlesian acceptance. She demonstrates control of herself, and passes the choice off to the Inquisitor, and while I certainly agree that the choice to murder should have blowback for the Inquisitor, by the nature of the game the life and death is the Inquisitor's hands.

 

Given the context and the game, including how the nobleman was just trying to goad the Inquisitor into socially accepted murder, it's not a mage over mundane context- it's a mage playing the game of the nobility.

 

 

 

 

 

What rules? The only rule it appears to have is "anything goes, as long as you win". There's nothing admirable or honorable in it, nothing that protects the common people, nothing that forbids betrayal of allies and family, nothing that places restraints on the ones who have or seek power. It is an utterly horrible environment that has no doubt had a strong influence on her personality.

Face, social acceptance, the collaboration of interests, and the adhereance to culture, which is itself the shares systems of beliefs, practices, and views. Orlais is a honor-based culture, for a definition of honor we don't consider, and even without formal rules there are underlying norms that guide how Orlesians play it. Murdering the Inquisitor outright would be unacceptable- goading the Inquisitor into a duel to kill him would. Similarly, killing the nobleman outright would be murder- allowing the Inquisitor to choose and following through is different.

 

I agree that the Game is bad- but it exists, and it is the culture, and Vivienne plays by its rules rather than approach it as an outsider.

 

 

 

Vivienne does have positive moments, but you have to pay attention and look for them (sometimes in contexts you really wouldn't expect to find them in). That's fine, in theory, because not every character should be an open book and it can be much more satisfying to befriend someone who doesn't offer themselves on a silver platter. But the deck feels stacked against her in ways that it isn't for other characters, and that does bug me.

 

 

Oh, I agree. And I like her for it, actually. I don't like Cole much, but he's an absolute necessity for insight into her character.