263 réponses à ce sujet

[AedanStarfang]

You know you can recruit and use her and then just edit the world state in the keep so that she was never in the party and someone else gets elected divine, win/win.

[CardButton]

@CardButton yes maybe you are the only one out there who likes her     sorry to say this but i am not loving her for it    and i do not agree with you on that mages should be free yes true there bad mages but there are enough good mages to why do they have to suffer for what the others did but that's my opinion. I cannot answer that question why she was affraid of other mages ( including herself )

 

And on the banter thing i have not heard that banter yet he is always trying to get on her good side

While nothing I say will change your mind on Viv, I will remind you that the "freedom" that Fiona granted the Mages by dissolving the Circles was the "freedom" to be hated by a world that feared them more than they had in centuries (due to the bombing of the Kirkwall Chantry by a Mage and the attempted assassination of Empress Celene, again by a mage).  She gave the nearly half of the Mage Circle population that supported staying in the Circle the "freedom" to choose between either staying in the Circle and dying, or (if they were lucky enough to escape the mass exodus of the Circles) to risk it on their own, or join her little band of Rebels. 

 

Yes, what Vivienne is saying about mages is harsh, but it is by no means wrong ... especially if you consider the final results of that decision to Disband. Fiona's decision to disband the circles ended in absolute disaster for her and her Rebel Mages and unless an outside force comes in and saves them (The Inquisition) their entire population ends up dead, or slaves to Tevinter.  Hows that for "freedom" of choice?  This is exactly what happened to them in my world-state as I decided it was more worthwhile to save the Templars (a group that was being manipulated and forcibly drugged without their knowledge) over the Rebel Mages (that due to an extreme lack of foresight and a remarkable series of bad decisions dug their own graves).  

[bEVEsthda]

I love threads like this. Means the game is really working.

I, too, had a great experience in DA:I today.

[Barquiel]

I've stopped recruiting her as well. She shows a huge lack of empathy and generally comes off as a massive hypocrite. But my main problem with her is that she is written to never lose a verbal confrontation no matter how weak her position is. This is made worse by the fact that she comes across as incredibly petty and childish for someone who is supposed to be a master of the "game". The few insights into orlesian politics and the circle system she does offer are rather flippant (or downright wrong). And if you don’t agree with her views she throws a fit by moving furniture.

[Toasted Llama]

Blackwall: Murders an entire family? Oh well, all is forgiven!

 

Vivienne: Hurts someone's feewings? OH NOEZ! HOW DARE SHE!

 

 

Excuse me, I'm just laughing on the floor at some of the Vivienne hate around here. Thought I guess that's what happens when their opinion's differ from the player's perspective as well as liking and disliking different characters than the player does.

[Dancing_Dolphin]

I'm conflicted when it comes to Vivienne. I admire her strength and what she has managed to make of herself, but I despise how she treats people. Her opinions on mage freedom don't really bother me, it's more about how she rates people's worth according to what they can do for her. I would have liked a bit more insight into her past experiences and how she became so cold, but she would never be the type of character to share that kind of personal information. Instead, every conversation is just a performance where she acts out what she thinks the masses want to hear. I'm curious to see how future events affect her character.

That being said, I almost always recruit her. If you don't like her, or you're playing a character who has opposing views, you can adjust how much support/help you give her. Not recruiting her is fine too, I'm not judging that decision, just explaining mine.

[Big I]

Yes, what Vivienne is saying about mages is harsh, but it is by no means wrong ... especially if you consider the final results of that decision to Disband. Fiona's decision to disband the circles ended in absolute disaster for her and her Rebel Mages and unless an outside force comes in and saves them (The Inquisition) their entire population ends up dead, or slaves to Tevinter. 

 

Vivienne's position presents a false choice; according to her, you either have the status quo or mages being burnt at the stake. This ignores all the cultures where mages are accepted parts of society (Tevinter, Rivain, the Avaars, the Dalish), it ignores the status quo around apostates (mages are an accepted part of numerous mercenary companies and no one cares except the Templars), and it ignores what happens if anyone else becomes Divine. If Cassandra reforms the Circle and gives them more freedom, it works without inciting a non-mage backlash. If Leliana disbands the Circle and the mages reform the College of Enchanters, "mages recieve unprecedented acceptance".

 

Vivienne. Is. Wrong.

[Deadly dwarf]

...guess I'm the exception lol.  She's a ******, but she knows it and I absolutely love her for it.  Plus, despite my main being a mage I did often agree with Viv in regards to her opinions on the Rebel Mages, though I've made enough rambly posts on these forums in reference to that.  The only thing I didn't get from Vivienne that I wanted was why she personally was so cautious around magic and afraid of mages (including herself).  There was a personal story there, but like with Vivienne's moment to shine not existing in "Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts" (a place where she absolutely should have shined) I feel like it was cut.

 

Vivienne in "Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts" truly was a disappointment.  Here's someone who should've been escorting you around and introducing you to people and giving you insights into various people since she should know everything about everyone in the Imperial Court.  In fact, I'd say she should've been mandatory for this mission just like Alistair at the Landsmeet in Origins or Varric on the Deep Roads Expedition in DA2.  This is the mission that should've been the justification for recruiting Viv in the first place.  Oh well....someone dropped the ball....

 

Blackwall's attitude towards people of nobility is quite shitty, so I don't see why Vivienne would spare his feelings.

 

In particular, when you include both Sera and Blackwall in your party, you get all of BW's rants about the nobility since Sera is a kindred spirit in that regard.  You sort of have to keep track of who to pair with whom in your parties.  Some pairings are like mixing nitro- and -glycerin.  Here, you can see the hateful antipathy of Viv when mixed with BW.  Also very bad is pairing Solas with Iron Bull.  Solas truly hates the Qunari.  (After Act 2 of DA2, I'm not a fan of the Qunari as a group either.)  By contrast, mellow Varric seems to work well with everyone.  His "frenemy" relationship with Cassandra is particularly fun.  Sera and Solas don't particularly like each other, but their exchanges aren't too obnoxious.

[Toasted Llama]

Vivienne's position presents a false choice; according to her, you either have the status quo or mages being burnt at the stake. This ignores all the cultures where mages are accepted parts of society (Tevinter, Rivain, the Avaars, the Dalish), it ignores the status quo around apostates (mages are an accepted part of numerous mercenary companies and no one cares except the Templars), and it ignores what happens if anyone else becomes Divine. If Cassandra reforms the Circle and gives them more freedom, it works without inciting a non-mage backlash. If Leliana disbands the Circle and the mages reform the College of Enchanters, "mages recieve unprecedented acceptance".

 

Vivienne. Is. Wrong.

 

In Tevinter the non-mage people are oppressed and the Dalish sent away every third mage they get. Yes, these mages are doing soooo well. (No, oppressing non-mages is not good.)

[Realmzmaster]

Solas does not hate the Qunari. He disagrees with their philosophy. In fact he respects Iron Bull to the point that they engage in a friendly chess match with no board. The exchanges doing the game is quite interesting. There banter between the two shows respect.

[Marika Haliwell]

Patricia08, I agree.. In my next game she will not be recruited.   I didn't like the way she mouth off to my inquisitor about the mages and Cole.

 

BTW. I enjoy my games better by getting into character and that includes getting emotional at times..

Not to mention when she changes the decor in Skyhold and the Inquisitor just sits there without being able to tell her .. wtf are you doing???

[CardButton]

Vivienne's position presents a false choice; according to her, you either have the status quo or mages being burnt at the stake. This ignores all the cultures where mages are accepted parts of society (Tevinter, Rivain, the Avaars, the Dalish), it ignores the status quo around apostates (mages are an accepted part of numerous mercenary companies and no one cares except the Templars), and it ignores what happens if anyone else becomes Divine. If Cassandra reforms the Circle and gives them more freedom, it works without inciting a non-mage backlash. If Leliana disbands the Circle and the mages reform the College of Enchanters, "mages recieve unprecedented acceptance".

 

Vivienne. Is. Wrong.

Viv's choice was to use passive and political means to advocate for more mage freedom and less-harsh treatment due to the Kirkwall incident, don't demonize her view to such a degree ... she simply was against outright rebellion and was an advocate for the Circles (which like she said she wasn't the only one by a long shot).  If anything, due to the success she's had in life she is the living embodiment of what the Circle Mages consistently claim they are denied by the rules of the Chantry and the Templars.  She achieved all her power and status through her own hard work, a little luck, and a clever tongue and did so while remaining well within the restrictions the Circle placed on her.  

 

She is absolutely right that the Rebel Mages could not have picked a worse time to disband the Circles than when they did.  She is absolutely right that Circle mages that advocated for independence showed little to no regard for the nearly half of their own population that wanted to stay in the Circles, let alone the hordes of mundane and Nobel populations outside of the Circles.  She is absolutely right that no-one (including her) can speak for the will of mages, because like "people" they all are different and are fueled by vastly different experiences.  Talk to all the mages in Redcliffe and notice not only how variant in politics they are, but how vastly different their interpretations of what "Freedom" means.  

 

Lastly, a de-facto victory, she was proven right by the fact that if you simply don't ally with Fiona and her Rebels they die out or become slaves of Tevinter, proving how remarkably bad the decision to disband when they did truly was. Great your free Fiona!  It caused the deaths of thousands across Thedas and ended in the destruction and death of much of your rebel force including yourself ... but good for you at least your free.  Too bad you didn't spend a little more time in the planning process on how you and your mages were actually going to survive outside of the circle once you gained your freedom, instead of pushing through your motion to dissolve the Circles during a period of extreme crises and stress because you knew damned well that if you waited till things cooled down that motion would have been thwarted AGAIN by the combined efforts of Vivienne and Wynne! 

[Tidus]

Vivi is the type of person that will use any method available to gain status and like Morrigan  she has a eye on the prize she wants-the Devine's seat.

 

What aggravates me is nobody ever asks what the Inquisitor wants.. Would any of the Intercircle  actually sit down and have a cold brew with him/her?   Even when the Inquisitor asks Josephine to walk with him/her through the castle she states she will get somebody else to give him/her a tour. 

[Realmzmaster]

Vivienne is not entirely right or wrong. She does have a perspective that should not be ignored. She is correct in stating that magic like fire is dangerous and those who forget that fact get burnt.

The other countries and Dalish know this point and have ways of dealing with mages that can be more brutal than the Circles (for example the Qunari). Even under the Divines with the College of Enchanters and Circles re-established the templars and seekers remain to provide protection against magical abuse.

 

Tevinter shows that mages will oppress non-mages and less powerful mages. The magisters can abuse their power just like the templars. Remember Dorian stated that the number of tranquil in Tevinter was staggering because the sentence could be handed down to silence enemies.

[Deadly dwarf]

Solas does not hate the Qunari. He disagrees with their philosophy. In fact he respects Iron Bull to the point that they engage in a friendly chess match with no board. The exchanges doing the game is quite interesting. There banter between the two shows respect.

 

In the exchange that I remember the most, Solas attacks the Ben Hassrath for forcing everyone to comply to the point of brain-washing.  Perhaps I'll have to keep them together to see if there is any evolution in their exchanges that shows mutual respect.  Mostly, I've been noticing that when pairing two characters over and over, you end up with the same conversation over and over again.

[Realmzmaster]

Vivi is the type of person that will use any method available to gain status and like Morrigan  she has a eye on the prize she wants-the Devine's seat.

 

What aggravates me is nobody ever asks what the Inquisitor wants.. Would any of the Intercircle  actually sit down and have a cold brew with him/her?   Even when the Inquisitor asks Josephine to walk with him/her through the castle she states she will get somebody else to give him/her a tour. 

 

Actually, Blackwall does sit down with the Inquisitor. Iron Bull sits down with the Inquisitor after killing a dragon. Cullen will have a chess match with the Inquisitor where they talk. The Inquisitor gets to shape Lelienna. Josephine is not catching on to the Inquisitor's flirt attempt., but later on you can speak to her about affairs of the Inquisition.

[Dancing_Dolphin]

Also very bad is pairing Solas with Iron Bull. Solas truly hates the Qunari.

If IB becomes Tal-Vashoth, he and Solas become friends.

[robertthebard]

Too emotional, OP. Vivienne is a condescending b*tch, but unfortunately she's also very competent, which means she's the kind of person you should keep where you can observe them. For instance, I knew right at the first meeting that she staged that confrontation at her party. So I rarely take her with me, but I always recruit her. I like to imagine that I tell Leliana to keep her under observation.

Her ass was in the courtyard when I went in to start Tresspasser...

[Realmzmaster]

In the exchange that I remember the most, Solas attacks the Ben Hassrath for forcing everyone to comply to the point of brain-washing.  Perhaps I'll have to keep them together to see if there is any evolution in their exchanges that shows mutual respect.  Mostly, I've been noticing that when pairing two characters over and over, you end up with the same conversation over and over again.

 

There is a youtube video and transcript of the chess match. https://www.youtube....h?v=Ky19-1fuL2U

[Witch Cocktor]

Also very bad is pairing Solas with Iron Bull.  Solas truly hates the Qunari.  (After Act 2 of DA2, I'm not a fan of the Qunari as a group either.) 

It's a bad pairing, yes, but I think their banter is amazing. Particularly because Solas has the exact same opinion on the Qunari as I do, and I enjoy how he roasts Iron Bull completely. I think it's an important exchange of opinions, ESPECIALLY since me, the Inquisitor, can't debate about the Qunari with Iron Bull.

[Midnight Bliss]

I'd have enjoyed Vivi alot more if she had some actual character progression and wasn't the same ABW stereotype that gets reused over and over and over again in the media.

 

As is she was definitely dead weight as a companion. Oh how I wish she could be swapped out for Harding or Krem, or be made an adviser and trade companion places with Cullen.

[KaiserShep]

Swapping Viv to take Cullen's place as advisor would be awful. Cullen is one of my favorite bits of the game, but I feel he's far better served as the commander of the Inquisition's troops than a mere follower. Viv does just fine just lingering in her loft waiting for me to talk to her one day.

[Midnight Bliss]

I'd rather she just be gone and replaced with somebody better, honestly. I just threw that suggestion out to preemptively placate the possible two or three hardcore Vivi fans who might show up ranting that she contributed so much and deserved her spot in the cast.

[SgtSteel91]

In my main playthrough, I recruited Vivienne, got her approval up so that we were considered friends (even gave her the Snowey Wyvern Heart no questions asked), but I supported Leliana as Divine and got her elected, which to me should have broken our friendship since Vivienne is totally against Leliana becoming Divine.

 

Come Trespasser and we're having Spa day and getting all chummy. Anyone do a similar thing, and how do you imagine Vivienne staying friendly with an Inquisitor who supports Divine Leliana/Mage freedom?

[CardButton]

In my main playthrough, I recruited Vivienne, got her approval up so that we were considered friends (even gave her the Snowey Wyvern Heart no questions asked), but I supported Leliana as Divine and got her elected, which to me should have broken our friendship since Vivienne is totally against Leliana becoming Divine.

 

Come Trespasser and were having Spa day and getting all chummy. Anyone do a similar thing, and how do you imagine Vivienne staying friendly with an Inquisitor who supports Divine Leliana/Mage freedom?

I don't think she's petty enough to stop being your friend just for a difference in politics.  She wouldn't have any positive relationships if that were the case considering how close she is to the "game".