Wait, what badge for Rainier?
If you are romancing Rainier, one of the quests involves you going to a camp to retrieve "his" Warden-Constable Badge and he tells you that this was where he and another Warden were ambushed.
http://dragonage.wik...ki/Explanations
If you are romancing Rainier, one of the quests involves you going to a camp to retrieve "Blackwall's" Warden-Constable Badge and he tells you that this was where he and another Warden were ambushed.
Which, ironically enough, is actually the truth. 
You recall wrong. After the massacre, Thom Rainier says he resumes mercenary work and isn't found by Blackwall until after a bar fight. He never got tired of running and waited there to die.
As I said, he didn't honor Blackwall's wishes and instead played pretend for years. His cowardice and arrogance is not a defense, and can be seen as an insult to Blackwall since for years the real Blackwall's family and friends never learned of his fate. He didn't even get a proper burial, since we find a skeleton with Darkspawn weapons through it right next to the badge you get for Rainier.
I'm going to have to check on this, because I could swear when the real story comes out, he says he was just hanging out in the tavern, getting drunk and waiting to be recognized when he met Blackwall.
And yeah, what Rannier did was cowardly. But I think he changed. I think the real Blackwall must have seen something in him that was worth saving. And I think Blackwall, in his own screwed up way, tried to atone for what he had done, by literally trying to be a better man. The stuff Cole digs out of his head seems to confirm this. He "killed" Rainier. And if he could do it all again, he'd have saved that family, or die trying.
But then, I'm a sucker for redemption stories. 
Which, ironically enough, is actually the truth.
Hey, Warden-Initiates are still considered Wardens 
I'm going to have to check on this, because I could swear when the real story comes out, he says he was just hanging out in the tavern, getting drunk and waiting to be recognized when he met Blackwall.
And yeah, what Rannier did was cowardly. But I think he changed. I think the real Blackwall must have seen something in him that was worth saving. And I think Blackwall, in his own screwed up way, tried to atone for what he had done, by literally trying to be a better man. The stuff Cole digs out of his head seems to confirm this. He "killed" Rainier. And if he could do it all again, he'd have saved that family, or die trying.
But then, I'm a sucker for redemption stories.
You and me both. And Rainier's worked out quite nicely in the end, shame he treated you kinda like an ass hole in the middle.
I really got the sense that Vivienne's cutscene dialogue and party banter dialogue were written by different people - and her party banter writer was just given the brief "She's a rude, snobby b*tch." (I found Morrigan kinda suffered from this too in Origins, but not so blatantly.) She makes sense as a character and always seems perfectly decent when interacting with the Inquisitor, but in the party banter she's a pretty pantomime snob. I really find it quite jarring.
Someone suggested I think of her banter as a persona she puts on for her own amusement or to keep the others at arm's length - she's just PLAYING at being a snobby b*tch. It kinda works, but it still feels like an ass-pull rather than something that was meant to be there.
I'm going to have to check on this, because I could swear when the real story comes out, he says he was just hanging out in the tavern, getting drunk and waiting to be recognized when he met Blackwall.
I just watched a video that had him explain what happened after, and you're misremembering.
And yeah, what Rannier did was cowardly. But I think he changed. I think the real Blackwall must have seen something in him that was worth saving. And I think Blackwall, in his own screwed up way, tried to atone for what he had done, by literally trying to be a better man. The stuff Cole digs out of his head seems to confirm this. He "killed" Rainier. And if he could do it all again, he'd have saved that family, or die trying.
He only changed because of the magical powers Bioware protagonists have on other characters. He showed no intention of changing when we met him, being more than content to live the lie he was living for the best of his life, regardless of the consequences that could cause. If he wanted to atone and be a better man, he would have gone to Orlais or the Wardens regardless of the fate that awaited him.
But then, I'm a sucker for redemption stories.
He has yet to redeem himself in my eyes. He has yet to make or even attempt to make things right with everyone he's wronged.
I don't know about anyone else, but I like Cassandra, Morrigan, and Miranda just fine. Morrigan tied with Alistair as my favorite Dragon Age: Origins companion. Miranda isn't in my personal Top 5 Mass Effect Trilogy squadmates, but she's number 7 on that list. Cassandra's really likable to me, I don't think I could find anything about her that's off-putting to me. It's rather strange to see anyone here call her a jerk in the same sentence as Morrigan, Miranda, and Vivienne.
As for disliking Vivienne because of her opinions on mages, that doesn't apply to me either. I like Wynne and Finn from Origins. I like the Templars like Knight Commander Gregor and Ser Barris. I've allied with the Templars and put Cassandra on the Sunburst throne plenty of times. I don't have any issues with the Templar Order simply existing. I'd describe myself as moderately pro-mage. I don't dislike Vivienne, she just annoys me and I gain nothing significant from her presence.
This is it this was the last straw what a mean b***tch is she
. In my current playthrough i kept Blackwall out of prison so he was flirting with Josie
all nice and wel he gave her flowers and stuff so during one of my quests where the b***tch and Blackwall were in my party she said something so mean to Blackwall
i do not know the exact words anymore but if someone would say that to me i would probably cry so for me no more Vivienne if i start a new character the next time i will not even talk to that guy in Val Royeaux anymore
It's actually realistic for the setting. Josephine, as an heiress to an estate, could never marry a man like Blackwall, so this is the sort of thing they would do.
He only changed because of the magical powers Bioware protagonists have on other characters. He showed no intention of changing when we met him, being more than content to live the lie he was living for the best of his life, regardless of the consequences that could cause. If he wanted to atone and be a better man, he would have gone to Orlais or the Wardens regardless of the fate that awaited him.
I'm not sure "content" is the right word. "Resigned" might be it. He didn't assume Blackwall's identity just because it was convenient. He did so because Blackwall was worthy of life and he was not.
Though yes, fear of death did play a role. He should have gone on to the Wardens. But then, he had no way of knowing they would have accepted his story. But in the end he overcomes even that and publicly confesses his crimes.
He has yet to redeem himself in my eyes. He has yet to make or even attempt to make things right with everyone he's wronged.
Have you seen his non-Warden epilogue in Trespasser?
Thom Rainier was shown mercy when none was deserved, and set on a path of redemption. This gift, so compassionately given, needed to be shared. Freed from his obligations to the Inquisition, Rainier traveled Thedas, giving hope to the condemned and the forgotten. In the deepest prisons and pits of Thedas, he found, if not goodness itself, its potential. By showing faith in those who had none, Rainier lifted them up and made them into something better than they were.
I don't know about anyone else, but I like Cassandra, Morrigan, and Miranda just fine. Morrigan tied with Alistair as my favorite Dragon Age: Origins companion. Miranda isn't in my personal Top 5 Mass Effect Trilogy squadmates, but she's number 7 on that list. Cassandra's really likable to me, I don't think I could find anything about her that's off-putting to me. It's rather strange to see anyone here call her a jerk in the same sentence as Morrigan, Miranda, and Vivienne.
As for disliking Vivienne because of her opinions on mages, that doesn't apply to me either. I like Wynne and Finn from Origins. I like the Templars like Knight Commander Gregor and Ser Barris. I've allied with the Templars and put Cassandra on the Sunburst throne plenty of times. I don't have any issues with the Templar Order simply existing. I'd describe myself as moderately pro-mage. I don't dislike Vivienne, she just annoys me and I gain nothing significant from her presence.
I like Cassandra. Morrigan not so much (but she does have some really good lines). I'd like Miranda more is she'd put on some clothes.
Vivienne has some strong opinions on mages. I don't agree with them all, but she raises some points worth considering.
I'm not sure "content" is the right word. "Resigned" might be it. He didn't assume Blackwall's identity just because it was convenient. He did so because Blackwall was worthy of life and he was not.
Though yes, fear of death did play a role. He should have gone on to the Wardens. But then, he had no way of knowing they would have accepted his story. But in the end he overcomes even that and publicly confesses his crimes.
That may be the lie he tells himself, but actions are stronger than words and his actions contradict his words.
Again, him not knowing isn't an excuse. If he wanted to honor Blackwall, he would have gone regardless of what happened. Instead he spits in Blackwall's sacrifice by taking his identity and leaving him to rot while the world never learned what truly happened to Blackwall.
Have you seen his non-Warden epilogue in Trespasser?
Thom Rainier was shown mercy when none was deserved, and set on a path of redemption. This gift, so compassionately given, needed to be shared. Freed from his obligations to the Inquisition, Rainier traveled Thedas, giving hope to the condemned and the forgotten. In the deepest prisons and pits of Thedas, he found, if not goodness itself, its potential. By showing faith in those who had none, Rainier lifted them up and made them into something better than they were.
Yes, I've seen it.
He has yet to make things right with the people connected to the Callier family or the others he murdered, thus he has yet to redeem himself.
His Warden ending has him more redeemed, since in that one it implies he sacrificed himself to help protect the world from Darkspawn.
I like Cassandra. Morrigan not so much (but she does have some really good lines). I'd like Miranda more is she'd put on some clothes.
Vivienne has some strong opinions on mages. I don't agree with them all, but she raises some points worth considering.
Points I've heard from plenty of other characters before or could figure out with ease on my own. Again, I don't deny she's well written but I find her too annoying to really bother with anymore.
That may be the lie he tells himself, but actions are stronger than words and his actions contradict his words.
Again, him not knowing isn't an excuse. If he wanted to honor Blackwall, he would have gone regardless of what happened. Instead he spits in Blackwall's sacrifice by taking his identity and leaving him to rot while the world never learned what truly happened to Blackwall.
Yes, I've seen it. He has yet to make things right with the people connected to the Callier family or the others he murdered, thus he has yet to redeem himself.
What actions were those? Teaching farmers to defend themselves against bandits? Helping the Inquisition when he was under less than zero obligation to do so? Offering himself for the hangman's noose when he's gotten away clean? I do not deny he started out a pretty despicable man, but he has changed. He's like the reverse Anakin Skywalker.
He probably should have. I don't disagree. But I do think that he was trying to honor Blackwall and his sacrifice. It was a deeply flawed, screwed-up way. But he wanted Blackwall to "live" and did so in the only way he knew how.
Some things can never be made right. What happened to the Callier family and his soldiers is one of them. All that's left is to try to be better. To spend what remains of his life making Thedas a better place. It's like Gandalf's line from Lord of the Rings: "Many who live deserve death. And some who die deserve life. Can you give it to them? To not be too quick to deal out death in judgement, for even the very wise cannot see all ends"
Points either I've heard from plenty of other characters before or could figure out with ease on my own. Again, I don't deny she's well written but I find her too annoying to really bother with anymore.
Which is perfectly fine. I don't think we're meant to like all the companions. And the characters in DAI are all over the map, appeal-wise.
Which is perfectly fine. I don't think we're meant to like all the companions. And the characters in DAI are all over the map, appeal-wise.
That's for sure. Just look at Sera. Some people can't stand her, but I love the hell out of that friggin' elf.
Vivienne was worried about Cole, and he points it out in banter. Vivienne will also show concern for Morrigan after she is struck down in the final battle. I forget what she says but I remember that it was sort of touching. If the Inquisitor drinks from the well she will assure the Inquisitor she will do everything in her power to help free the Inquisitor from it, and offers the Circle's resources as well. In Trespasser she also says she will work with Dorian to figure out how to stop the anchor from getting worse. She offers friendly advice, and I think she also has an approval gain if you save everyone you can in Haven.
Oh god will people get a grip.
This is why i hate the rainbows and unicorn crowd who want there games with every all happy thing and nice with a pink bow at the end where everyone is submissive to them the leader and the universe must conform to the happy pixie powder magic where at the end everyone retires to the beach sipping drinks with umbrellas.
People think Vivienne is a b!itch and people think Cassandra is a b!itch, people think Morrigan is a b!itch and people think Miranda is a b!itch an so on. Every time Bioware makes a strong woman people QQ about how much they are a b!itch because they say "mean" things to people. Boo hoo.
DEAL.
WITH.
IT.
The world isn't filled with rainbows and unicorns. Some people have strong opinions and express them. Every companion is an ASS to at least one other companion. Blackwell is a real dick towards Solas & Dorian so it isn't like he is an innocent. People have a real reason to be "bitchy" towards Blackwell. What makes Bioware characters so good is that they ignore the fraking rainbows and unicorns crowd and make all their characters with flaws hell most of them are very damaged people.
I also find that the vast majority of the Vivienne hate is from the RADICAL mage fans who honestly believe their mages are innocent and just a poor oppressed peoples, and Vivienne has the audacity to challenge their warped fraked up view. Sorry mage fans Bioware has gone out of their way to make sure there is no "side" in Thedas without blood and evil acts on their side.
Maybe I just think she's a ******? Maybe, if she were a man, I'd just think she was a dick. What I'm tired of is every time someone doesn't like something about some character in a video game it's "you're anti-gay" or "discriminating against women" or a "sexist pig". Allow me to pass on your own advice: Deal with it.
Oh, and for the delicious irony: My favorite companion in the game is Sera.
Vivienne couldn't give two figs for the mages of Circles persecuted and abused by Templars and she amply demonstrated avoidance of being confined in the Circle by manipulating her way through political power circles.
That is patently untrue based on her dialogue. You can dislike her for thinking the Circles are necessary, but don't pretend it's for some other reason
In Redcliffe she expresses regret and responsibility, that she should have looked harder for the Tranquil but didn't. She doesn't deny there were Templar abuses, or that those are wrong. Dangit, don't make me replay it, but she addresses all those topics.
She can be abrasive, and she's not to everyone's taste. I just think too many disagree with her points on mage freedom and manufacture other reasons to dislike her.
That is patently untrue based on her dialogue. You can dislike her for thinking the Circles are necessary, but don't pretend it's for some other reason
In Redcliffe she expresses regret and responsibility, that she should have looked harder for the Tranquil but didn't. She doesn't deny there were Templar abuses, or that those are wrong. Dangit, don't make me replay it, but she addresses all those topics.
She can be abrasive, and she's not to everyone's taste. I just think too many disagree with her points on mage freedom and manufacture other reasons to dislike her.
Except when in Leliana is Divine and mages gain acceptance with the College of Enchanters, in which case she can't handle the fact that she's irrelevant and thus pretty much causes a new mage civil war simply because she wants power.
What other reason could she have when she admits the College is good at training mages and mages have gained acceptance in Thedas?
Except when in Leliana is Divine and mages gain acceptance with the College of Enchanters, in which case she can't handle the fact that she's irrelevant and thus pretty much causes a new mage civil war simply because she wants power.
What other reason could she have when she admits the College is good at training mages and mages have gained acceptance in Thedas?
1) I haven't actually had Leli as Divine yet -- though I expect she will be on my Tal Vashoth playthrough
2) That Vivi wants power has never been in question. That she thinks she knows best (whether that's true or not, all signs point to the fact that her conviction is real) isn't in question, either. It still doesn't mean she's OK with Templar abuse or doesn't care about her fellow mages, as you said. 
Except when in Leliana is Divine and mages gain acceptance with the College of Enchanters, in which case she can't handle the fact that she's irrelevant and thus pretty much causes a new mage civil war simply because she wants power.
What other reason could she have when she admits the College is good at training mages and mages have gained acceptance in Thedas?
I've thought about this and the best reason I can come up with comes from her banter with Dorian during Trespasser. I can't find the full banter, but the gist of it was Vivienne warning Dorian to be ready to jump if his plans to reform Tevinter fall apart.
I think she believes either the College of Enchanters or Leliana's reign is highly likely to fall apart (she says Leliana is barely keeping the Chantry together and suggests that's mostly due to the Inquisition's power) and leave the Mages venerable to persecution. So she's built her own Circle to act as a safety net. Maybe it's also there to compete with the College and have the Mages of that institution focus on competing with her Circle rather than plan to take over Thedas or something.
Yeah, I didn't like her that much either. The constant calling me dear thing didn't really help my opinion of her.
I honestly thought Vivienne was hilarious to have around. Its a shame there was no hate-sex option.
Oh Milan
Maybe I just think she's a ******? Maybe, if she were a man, I'd just think she was a dick. What I'm tired of is every time someone doesn't like something about some character in a video game it's "you're anti-gay" or "discriminating against women" or a "sexist pig". Allow me to pass on your own advice: Deal with it.
Oh, and for the delicious irony: My favorite companion in the game is Sera.
Someone doth protest too much, methinks.
I never made any accusations I simply pointed to a trend of how every strong woman character Bioware makes gets called a b!tch. And you seem to want to make it very clear you aren't anti-gay or sexist and even did the ,"I can't be a bigot because i have an X friend," with your comment about Sera. So maybe you need to do a little self reflection as to the the actual cause of your knee jerk post. It has been my experience that those that are loudest in their claims of not being a bigot turn out to be a bigot. Which makes perfect sense people who aren't bigots don't need to show the world they aren't bigots because it is SELF EVIDENT.
Also the only group I singled out where the rainbow and unicorn crowd when did this group of gamers ever get associated with sexists or homophobes? You really doth protest too much, methinks.
Someone doth protest too much, methinks.
I never made any accusations I simply pointed to a trend of how every strong woman character Bioware makes gets called a b!tch. And you seem to want to make it very clear you aren't anti-gay or sexist and even did the ,"I can't be a bigot because i have an X friend," with your comment about Sera. So maybe you need to do a little self reflection as to the the actual cause of your knee jerk post. It has been my experience that those that are loudest in their claims of not being a bigot turn out to be a bigot. Which makes perfect sense people who aren't bigots don't need to show the world they aren't bigots because it is SELF EVIDENT.
Also the only group I singled out where the rainbow and unicorn crowd when did this group of gamers ever get associated with sexists or homophobes? You really doth protest too much, methinks.
No.
Never dictate someone else's motives to them, especially when it is something like bigotry. This is absurd.
Yes, every strong female character BioWare makes gets called a ******. Just like every male character BioWare makes get's called whiny. That has everything to do with this being the internet. The people calling one character a ****** are probably not the ones calling this other character a ******. It's just people coming to individual conclusions and posting them, not some grand misogynistic bigotry. Every character get's called every variety of nonsense, that's the nature of the internet in general and these forums in particular.
And yes, no doubt some of the people calling them whatever are doing so with deeply bigoted reasons. But rushing to tar every critic of certain characters with that same brush is just grotesque.
I love lots of BioWare's female characters. I dislike some of them. I hate one or two. This has nothing to do with having a problem with women and everything to do with having a problem with certain characters.
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