263 réponses à ce sujet

[BSpud]

I honestly forget she's a companion. After I get to Skyhold she turns into an NPC.

[CoM Solaufein]

I enlist her but she stays at Skyhold. I really have no use for two mages in my travels, since my Inky is a mage. Plus I don't like her holier than thou attitude.

[Tidus]

lakus,I will never make Vivi the Devine.. Cassandra or Leliana will get the Devine's seat.

 

I looked beneath  her beauty and seen a woman that  equals Morrigan.

[Vanilka]

To be honest, at first I didn't like Vivienne very much. Mostly because I thought she was rather arrogant and she seemed to think she knew everything best. Sometimes she was quite mean, just in the sense that she wasn't pleasant to have around sometimes, which isn't too bad in comparison with the companions that encourage you to kill and abuse. I didn't have high approval with her during my first playthrough and, oh, did she let my Lavellan know. I ended up respecting her, but also thinking she was a b♡tch and that her noble background influenced her views too much. But then... she grew on me a great deal during my second playthrough when I explored more of her dialogue.

 

The thing I like about Vivienne is that she has some truly interesting and intelligent insight into the whole thing with Circles, mages, templars and more. I might not agree with everything she says, but she makes some darn good points or at least provides some food for thought. She has style and I enjoy having somebody so stylish and eloquent around. As I've never been awfully good at these things, it fascinates me. If your approval with her is decent, she's actually pretty sweet. She was fussing over my Trevelyan after In Your Heart Shall Burn. She complimented my Lavellan (mage) about her skills during their first conversation in Haven. She tries to give advice. If you drink from the Well, she wants to help you to be safe when she could simply shrug and not bother. Her banter with e.g. Cassandra or Varric seems to be pretty relaxed and I kind of like how she sits Iron Bull down because of how frigging casual he is with everyone and how she sasses Sera back sometimes. Her sarcastically telling Sera, "Maker, however shall I endure this horror. Someone fetch me a fainting couch," is pretty funny, in my opinion. (Or maybe it's just me. I thought it was funny.) I'm still exploring her banter, actually. She also has some interesting stuff to say during the quests and in some areas. Her telling my Trevelyan that he always took her to the most wonderful places when they entered a nasty, damp cave made me chuckle, too.

 

So, yeah, I like Vivienne. I think she might be an acquired taste. It definitely wasn't love at the first sight, but I like her a lot now. As a person, she's not perfect. (If she were, the forums wouldn't shut up about how she was a Mary Sue or the writers' pet and whatnot anyway.) Yes, she can be cold and snobby and arrogant and unpleasant to deal with. She can be a gold-digger. That makes her a well-written character, among many other things, since it gives her all that character that we can dislike (or love). But she also cares deeply about many things, she's a strong and smart person with opinions, she can be very warm if she finds you worthy, etc. As a whole, I find her to be an interesting character with many layers that I like to have around from time to time. I also feel that it's really cool to have a character that naturally tends to have some friction with a lot of Inquisitors since most of our squad are pretty amiable and very easy to befriend. (Much like others in this thread though, I was disappointed that she didn't play a larger role in Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts because that was supposed to be her thing - damn shame.)

 

All that said, I understand why people might dislike her. I don't think she was even written to be a very likeable person anyway.

[Mistic]

All that said, I understand why people might dislike her. I don't think she was even written to be a very likeable person anyway.

 

True. Bioware writers tend to say that they don't want every character to be loved, but to cause a reaction. Indifference, 'meh' characters aren't satisfactory for them. Well, they certainly succeeded with Vivienne. Take a look at this thread!

[robertthebard]

Sweet baby Jesus, hakuna your tatas!

 

One image is mocking Vivienne's haters and another post is talking about their annoyance with people who get angry over characters having their own (strong) opinions. Neither of those posts mentioned people who dislike Vivienne or call female character's a 'b!tch' are racist or sexist.

 

So quit being so hyper-defense; it's only counter productive when you rant how you're totally not racist/sexist/bigoted when the post you're replying to didn't even mention it.

The what was the reason you came in here again?  I have to admit, when you say you came in to stand up for a "strong female character", that's exactly what I presume you to mean, and yet, all you did was come in to mock people for not liking her?  You're right, though, I exhibit no surprise, and I'm also not surprised you don't want to hear "Deal with it", which is, so far the most relevant thing you've said, only instead of taking your own advice, you continue to act like everyone else is at fault for your wounded feelings about how Viv is treated.

 

I don't like her.  DEAL WITH IT.  If you can't, ignore me, it's simple enough, and it doesn't matter how many times you try to pretend like it's not your problem, I'm not going to change my view.  That I don't like her isn't my problem, it's yours.  DEAL WITH IT.  If you need to, seek professional help.  But quit pretending that it's someone else's problem, or someone being afraid of a "strong female".  My last GF was body builder with an Orange Belt in Kenpo, I know, I taught her.  I guess there goes that weak ass argument right out the window.  Again, assigning motives to something that you don't understand, at all.  You have no concept for disliking someone because of who they are, and instead decide that it's because of what they are.  This isn't just silly, it's ignorant, at the basest of levels.  Sorry you believe that you get to decide how I should feel about characters in a video game, and then decide why I don't feel that way, if I don't.  DEAL WITH IT.  This issue is not my own, but your own.  You can't see past "He doesn't like her, he's got to be afraid of a strong female".  DEAL WITH IT.  Again, if you are unable to figure out that other people's motivations may not fit your own, irony much, DEAL WITH IT.  Get professional help, but don't try to tell me that I'm only allowed to like or dislike characters based on your perceptions.  Frankly, your perception of reality, even virtual, is too limited to try to restrict me to it.  DEAL WITH IT.

[Sarielle]

 I ended up respecting her, but also thinking she was a b♡tch and that her noble background influenced her views too much. But then... she grew on me a great deal during my second playthrough when I explored more of her dialogue.

 

The thing I like about Vivienne is that she has some truly interesting and intelligent insight into the whole thing with Circles, mages, templars and more. I might not agree with everything she says, but she makes some darn good points or at least provides some food for thought.

 

Yeah, the thing that bugs me about posts like the OP aren't that they don't like her; it's the "I never talk to her" "I never take her" etc. because they don't agree with her.

 

If you don't let the other side have their say, you just end up in an echo chamber, and that leads to stagnation. I know with "safe spaces" being all the rage in some parts that it probably shouldn't surprise me, but your views should be able to stand up to some criticism/examination. If they can't, maybe you shouldn't hold onto them so tightly. (EDIT: This is a general "you" here, not you Vanilka To be clear.)

 

Vivienne is hardly alone in being an ass to other companions. Darn near everyone is snarky/rude to at least one other companion. Exploring different characters is what these kinda games should be about, imo; even if you don't like/agree with everything they have to say. Every one of them has some additional insight to offer.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Yeah, the thing that bugs me about posts like the OP aren't that they don't like her; it's the "I never talk to her" "I never take her" etc. because they don't agree with her.

 

If you don't let the other side have their say, you just end up in an echo chamber, and that leads to stagnation. I know with "safe spaces" being all the rage in some parts that it probably shouldn't surprise me, but your views should be able to stand up to some criticism/examination. If they can't, maybe you shouldn't hold onto them so tightly. (EDIT: This is a general "you" here, not you Vanilka To be clear.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with Vivienne but disagree with this post. Some opinions need to be marginalized IMO. If there is no rational basis behind them, they should be tossed aside. There is no value in demagoguery whatsoever, it just gets in the way of real solutions/progress.

[Toasted Llama]

The what was the reason you came in here again?  I have to admit, when you say you came in to stand up for a "strong female character", that's exactly what I presume you to mean, and yet, all you did was come in to mock people for not liking her?  You're right, though, I exhibit no surprise, and I'm also not surprised you don't want to hear "Deal with it", which is, so far the most relevant thing you've said, only instead of taking your own advice, you continue to act like everyone else is at fault for your wounded feelings about how Viv is treated.

 

I don't like her.  DEAL WITH IT.  If you can't, ignore me, it's simple enough, and it doesn't matter how many times you try to pretend like it's not your problem, I'm not going to change my view.  That I don't like her isn't my problem, it's yours.  DEAL WITH IT.  If you need to, seek professional help.  But quit pretending that it's someone else's problem, or someone being afraid of a "strong female".  My last GF was body builder with an Orange Belt in Kenpo, I know, I taught her.  I guess there goes that weak ass argument right out the window.  Again, assigning motives to something that you don't understand, at all.  You have no concept for disliking someone because of who they are, and instead decide that it's because of what they are.  This isn't just silly, it's ignorant, at the basest of levels.  Sorry you believe that you get to decide how I should feel about characters in a video game, and then decide why I don't feel that way, if I don't.  DEAL WITH IT.  This issue is not my own, but your own.  You can't see past "He doesn't like her, he's got to be afraid of a strong female".  DEAL WITH IT.  Again, if you are unable to figure out that other people's motivations may not fit your own, irony much, DEAL WITH IT.  Get professional help, but don't try to tell me that I'm only allowed to like or dislike characters based on your perceptions.  Frankly, your perception of reality, even virtual, is too limited to try to restrict me to it.  DEAL WITH IT.

 

Mother of Fu--

 

Basic reading comprehension skills, do you have them? I am NOT the person who wrote the "Deal. With. It." post.

 

Your temper tantrums are adorable though. To those I have to say the exact same thing that I wrote earlier: Hakuna your tatas and quit taking everything so personally.

[Sarielle]

I agree wholeheartedly with Vivienne but disagree with this post. Some opinions need to be marginalized IMO. If there is no rational basis behind them, they should be tossed aside. There is no value in demagoguery whatsoever, it just gets in the way of real solutions/progress.

 

But they should at least be heard. My point was "disagree all you want, but hear the person out first."

[sim-ran]

There's something off about Viv. I think it's a lack of content. In a Bioware game you traditionally get to delve into a character over the course of a game and find their secret vulnerabilities. With her you just never get past the surface.

Which actually makes total sense for her character, but it still irks me. Feels like there's very little to miss out on by not recruiting her.

[Sarielle]

There's something off about Viv. I think it's a lack of content.

 

She seems to rely pretty heavily on party banter to flesh her out -- taking her with Cole offers some interesting insight especially -- both why she fears demons so and that she actually comes to worry about him (for his own sake).

[Gothfather]

Mother of Fu--

 

Basic reading comprehension skills, do you have them? I am NOT the person who wrote the "Deal. With. It." post.

 

Your temper tantrums are adorable though. To those I have to say the exact same thing that I wrote earlier: Hakuna your tatas and quit taking everything so personally.

 

Oh my god I am so sorry, as i type this laughing literally out loud.

 

It appears that my comments...

 

 

 

Despite what you may believe the feminists are not out to get you. You are acting paranoid when you start accusing male gamers and obviously male gamers at that because their gender is clearly displayed in their avatar name as feminist feeling victimized by the gaming industry. You are manufacturing your own victimization because you have lost touch with reality.

 

...couldn't have been proven more accurately than having robertthebard go off on the wrong person. I am sorry it had to be you but that was just surreal. I still don't understand how rainbows and unicorns are code words used by SJW but i get the feeling I am looking for a rational explanation from a clearly unhinged person and that is a fools errand. Just WOW.

 

Sorry you got caught by the crazy but I guess that is the nature of crazy it doesn't behave logically or rationally so it will target the innocent.

 

The manufactured victimization and warped view that somehow me telling people to "Deal. With. It." to people who want rainbows and unicorns in their games is code for thought control and political correctness is both incredibly comedic while sad. Just one off hand comment that this is actually a common occurrence with all of bioware's past "strong women" really sent him into a tissy.

 

Sorry I just have to get over myself, I mean it has been really hard for me as a straight white male to get into games because of how persecuted i feel my the gaming industry and other male gamers. I struggle with this every day.

[Vanilka]

I would argue Vivienne shows her vulnerable side when she lets the Inquisitor see what the snowy wyvern heart was for. I think that's something deeply personal and it doesn't seem to be something she shares with everyone.

 

I can't argue, though, that she doesn't have tons of content. Especially if your approval is stuck neither too high or too low, you get little content besides when you take her out. I could say the same for Solas, though. My Trevelyan has low approval with him and he gets pretty much no content in the HQ.

[Toasted Llama]

There's something off about Viv. I think it's a lack of content. In a Bioware game you traditionally get to delve into a character over the course of a game and find their secret vulnerabilities. With her you just never get past the surface.

Which actually makes total sense for her character, but it still irks me. Feels like there's very little to miss out on by not recruiting her.

 

She should've played a much larger role in Wicked Eyes Wicked Hearts, or at least  given you a quick run through of "The Game for Dummies".

 

Perhaps her personal quest should've been done differently.

 

Either way it's a common complaint, you're not the only one who feels there's lacking something.

 

 

She seems to rely pretty heavily on party banter to flesh her out -- taking her with Cole offers some interesting insight especially -- both why she fears demons so and that she actually comes to worry about him (for his own sake).

 

This actually annoys me, considering the massive time period between each banter section and how it usually fires off behind you, while you're doing other stuff, like plucking elfroot or picking elfroot or sometimes you're just so busy harvesting elfroot. (Did I mention grabbing elfroot yet?)

 

Anyway; they should've handled the interaction more in the way ME3 did it, from what I remember characters would walk around the ship from time to time and could be found interacting with each other. Have that dialogue go further each time you pass the companions and switch the encounters around every time you re-load Skyhold.

[Wren]

Too emotional, OP. Vivienne is a condescending b*tch, but unfortunately she's also very competent, which means she's the kind of person you should keep where you can observe them. For instance, I knew right at the first meeting that she staged that confrontation at her party. So I rarely take her with me, but I always recruit her. I like to imagine that I tell Leliana to keep her under observation.

Haha, this is EXACTLY what I do too.  I always choose the less friendly dialogue options when talking to her.

[robertthebard]

Mother of Fu--

 

Basic reading comprehension skills, do you have them? I am NOT the person who wrote the "Deal. With. It." post.

 

Your temper tantrums are adorable though. To those I have to say the exact same thing that I wrote earlier: Hakuna your tatas and quit taking everything so personally.

Oops, my bad.

[Xerrai]

Vivenne gets on my nerves too, but I admire her competence in being a mage and being a courtier.

 

That being said, the main deal-breaker, for me, when I recruit her, is that she is something of a hypocrite when it comes to the treatment of mages. That, or an elitist.

 

I can get behind that maybe the mages ask for too much at an inopportune time (after Anders blew up the Chantry), and that them trying to get away from their 'natural' responsibilities as a mage (training of their will to counteract the constant threat of possession) is perhaps not the best decision. I can even agree that sometimes mages overstep their bounds.

 

But telling me that mages wanting for freedoms is asking for too much while she stands there in front of me is a deal breaker. Vivienne politically maneuvered herself to escape the Circle system (more or less) to get the same freedoms that many mages want and demand for. She has reached a position so favored that she all but exempts herself from daily Circle life aside from the higher tier of it politics. She can leave the Circle when she wishes, she can reside in Duke Bastion's Villas, she can gain permission to practice her magic outside of the Circle's premises and she can even freely mingle with the people of Orlais.

 

The same freedoms many mages covet, are ones she obtained through climbing the social ladder. It wasn't easy, but she did it. Her efforts all but scream that she wanted to escape the typical Circle life and its usual restrictions.

[AntiChri5]

Sweet baby Jesus, hakuna your tatas!

 

One image is mocking Vivienne's haters and another post is talking about their annoyance with people who get angry over characters having their own (strong) opinions. Neither of those posts mentioned people who dislike Vivienne or call female character's a 'b!tch' are racist or sexist.

 

So quit being so hyper-defense; it's only counter productive when you rant how you're totally not racist/sexist/bigoted when the post you're replying to didn't even mention it.

Have you actually read the posts I was replying to? Because my post has absolutely nothing to do with that "haters" pic (which I honestly find funny), it is only a direct response to the absurd alegations Goth was making.

[Barquiel]

Yeah, the thing that bugs me about posts like the OP aren't that they don't like her; it's the "I never talk to her" "I never take her" etc. because they don't agree with her.

 

If you don't let the other side have their say, you just end up in an echo chamber, and that leads to stagnation. I know with "safe spaces" being all the rage in some parts that it probably shouldn't surprise me, but your views should be able to stand up to some criticism/examination. If they can't, maybe you shouldn't hold onto them so tightly. (EDIT: This is a general "you" here, not you Vanilka To be clear.)

 

Vivienne is hardly alone in being an ass to other companions. Darn near everyone is snarky/rude to at least one other companion. Exploring different characters is what these kinda games should be about, imo; even if you don't like/agree with everything they have to say. Every one of them has some additional insight to offer.

 

My problem with that is that all characters, and especially our inquisitor, are written to interact with her as if they suddenly lost all their IQ. I would really have liked if the inquisitor at least, had been written able to challenge her views by at least trying to give coherent arguments or point out her hypocrisy. But no: you either agree with Vivienne...or lose your ability to form sentences around her. I especially hated my inqusitiors reaction to whole moving furniture scene. Order her to leave (her contributions are nonexistent anyway), remark on her childishness, just shrug it off - but nooooo, the writers obviously wanted Vivienne to "outwit" the Inquisitor, that's why we can only cry in helpless rage. And that's simply frustrating.

[robertthebard]

Didn't I see a version of this that said "I slept my way out of the Circle, you can too"?

[CardButton]

My problem with that is that all characters, and especially our inquisitor, are written to interact with her as if they suddenly lost all their IQ. I would really have liked if the inquisitor at least, had been written able to challenge her views by at least trying to give coherent arguments or point out her hypocrisy. But no: you either agree with Vivienne...or lose your ability to form sentences around her. I especially hated my inqusitiors reaction to whole moving furniture scene. Order her to leave (her contributions are nonexistent anyway), remark on her childishness, just shrug it off - but nooooo, the writers obviously wanted Vivienne to "outwit" the Inquisitor, that's why we can only cry in helpless rage. And that's simply frustrating.

Don't you feel that this is a problem with the subject matter of the dialogues with her more so than your character suddenly less intelligent?  

 

Vivienne is extremely selective about the topics she will discuss and rarely, if ever, talks to the Inquisitor about subjects that she is not keenly involved in.  She is an expert at circle politics, she is an expert at the game, she has vast amounts of experience with Mages from all walks of life (and openly and freely admits to not being able to possibly speak for all of them, due to them all basing their decisions off of unique life experiences), and above all I think her most important trait she seems to have a grasp of "people" far better than any other mage in the game.  With the exception of perhaps the Circle Mage there are very few versions of the Inquisitor that could even hope to be a match her expertise in those fields and since she is a born politician she is an expert at debate.  A Dalish, a Qunari, and a Dwarf PC simply wouldn't have the first hand experience with her content fields to ever be a linguistic match for her ... unless the player is installing Meta knowledge to back up their PC's arguments. 

 

People seem to get mad at her because she "talks down to others, acting like their stupid" or "she acts like she's better than everyone else", but to be fair in many ways with the subjects being discussed ... she straight up is better than us.  People may not like being belittled, but if your trying to debate a point against an expert that has not just been discussing that topic, but debating her views on the political stage for years ... your gonna get butchered.  It's like if I got into a talk with Neil deGrasse Tison about Astrophysics, and then me getting mad at him for slamming the crap out of me in that discussion.  You're in her domain and you may bring an interesting perspective, but she still has a heck of a lot more experience than you. 

[Toasted Llama]

Vivienne is extremely selective about the topics she will discuss and rarely, if ever, talks to the Inquisitor about subjects that she is not keenly involved in.  She is an expert at circle politics, she is an expert at the game, she has vast amounts of experience with Mages from all walks of life (and openly and freely admits to not being able to possibly speak for all of them, due to them all basing their decisions off of unique life experiences), and above all I think her most important trait she seems to have a grasp of "people" far better than any other mage in the game.  With the exception of perhaps the Circle Mage there are very few versions of the Inquisitor that could even hope to be a match her expertise in those fields and since she is a born politician she is an expert at debate.  A Dalish, a Qunari, and a Dwarf PC simply wouldn't have the first hand experience with her content fields to ever be a linguistic match for her ... unless the player is installing Meta knowledge to back up their PC's arguments. 

 

I think this is a problem with people roleplaying themselves a lot or otherwise assuming that the protagonist you play as, has an equal amount of knowledge as the player themselves. Or maybe they headcanon their characters reads a lot of books/codex entries and has gained a lot of knowledge that way.

 

Sometimes the Inquisitor is a little too uneducated though; like a Dalish Inquisitor having the option to ask "What's a mythal?" when they have Mythal's Vallaslin plastered on their faces. That can make it confusing as to how much the protagonist knows and I don't think Bioware does a great job at clarifying how much your character can know.

[Sarielle]

Sometimes the Inquisitor is a little too uneducated though; like a Dalish Inquisitor having the option to ask "What's a mythal?" when they have Mythal's Vallaslin plastered on their faces.

 

Agreed. The Temple is so painful on a Dalish character. Morrigan rattling on and no option to say "Yeah, please don't explain the basics of my own religion to me."

[CardButton]

Sometimes the Inquisitor is a little too uneducated though; like a Dalish Inquisitor having the option to ask "What's a mythal?" when they have Mythal's Vallaslin plastered on their faces. That can make it confusing as to how much the protagonist knows and I don't think Bioware does a great job at clarifying how much your character can know.

Maybe if we don't mention the Temple of Mythal Dalish fiasco it wont exist LOL?  "Who is Mythal?" says my Dalish when she has Mythal Vallaslin magically stapled to her face.