Yeah, Vivienne is only so good at the "Game" at the expense of your inquisitor being made an idiot.
It's the same story as with Tallis. You just stand there taking their nonsense because you have no dialogue option to counter them, for the sole reason of making them ooze awesomeness.
Your Inquisitor doesn't need to be Orlesian whose favorite passtime is the "Game" to figure out Vivienne is trying to manipulate you.
Because "the Game" is not rocket science.
It's just manipulation and looking good while doing it , Orlais may call it " the Game" so it seems special but it isn't.
It happens everywhere .
Cool! If that's the case then I guess I'll go and play against a professional Poker player, I'm sure I'll do great with little to no previous experience. It's not rocket science its just manipulation and looking good while doing it so that you don't show any tells. 
Also, assuming the "Game is as easy as you say, the player would still require the appropriate information needed to properly play. An intricate understanding of Orlesian and Fereldon politics, a deep understanding of most if not all of the underlying issues of the Mage/Templar conflict and the history leading up to it, perhaps even enough first person experience with those conflicts that they can make a justifiable personal conclusion on how they can be best resolved and the appropriate data to back up that claim. Every game has rules. The Inquisitor is an outsider to almost all of these topics and "In Game" was essentially given a Crash Course on what they needed to know for the moment by people who knew better than they, just so they wouldn't shove their foot in their mouth and make things worse. 
Yeah, Vivienne is only so good at the "Game" at the expense of your inquisitor being made an idiot.
It's the same story as with Tallis. You just stand there taking their nonsense because you have no dialogue option to counter them, for the sole reason of making them ooze awesomeness.
Your Inquisitor doesn't need to be Orlesian whose favorite passtime is the "Game" to figure out Vivienne is trying to manipulate you.
As long as your Quizzy has ears you can tell she's manipulating events to benefit herself. Cassy tells you such. Blackwall tells you such. Josey tells you such. Hell even Vivienne tells you straight your face that that is exactly what she is doing, she's not dancing around that fact in the slightest. And no, I highly doubt that any Inquisitor as they existed in game would have a chance at hell at competing against an experienced opponent in Orlesian/Mage politics unless the player was incorporating in Meta-Knowledge.
Politics is its own type of battlefield, if your unskilled while your on it there is a good chance your going to get killed. 
Cool! If that's the case then I guess I'll go and play against a professional Poker player, I'm sure I'll do great with little to no previous experience. It's not rocket science its just manipulation and looking good while doing it so that you don't show any tells.
Also, assuming the "Game is as easy as you say, the player would still require the appropriate information needed to properly play. An intricate understanding of Orlesian and Fereldon politics, a deep understanding of most if not all of the underlying issues of the Mage/Templar conflict and the history leading up to it, perhaps even enough first person experience with those conflicts that they can make a justifiable personal conclusion on how they can be best resolved and the appropriate data to back up that claim. Every game has rules. The Inquisitor is an outsider to almost all of these topics and "In Game" was essentially given a Crash Course on what they needed to know for the moment by people who knew better than they, just so they wouldn't shove their foot in their mouth and make things worse.
I agree with what you say but it points to a flaw in the video game itself.
Viv can outwit you in the game because you aren't skilled. I can get behind that and even believe it. However, The Inquisitor in the course of one night is able to outmaneuver; Briala, Florianne, Celene and Gaspard. Three (excluding Gaspard) of the most skilled players in Orlais. This is the part that I find hard to get past.
I agree with what you say but it points to a flaw in the video game itself.
Viv can outwit you in the game because you aren't skilled. I can get behind that and even believe it. However, The Inquisitor in the course of one night is able to outmaneuver; Briala, Florianne, Celene and Gaspard. Three (excluding Gaspard) of the most skilled players in Orlais. This is the part that I find hard to get past.
Florianne was an idiot and you did not really out manuever anyone but presented undeniable evidence that they were screwing each other over and used that to blackmail them, granted that is playing the game really well, but that is still kinda like taking a light saber to the head.
Because that would mean a much more advanced dialog system, aware of your PC's race and culture. There are plenty of situations where dwarves or qunari could gain from special dialog options, why should dalish have special treatment? And then you could throw profession and background into that as well...I don't understand why bioware didn't put in an elf only response to this set of conversations. Something like Morrigan, Not all clans have the same beliefs. Some clans may think like you say but my clan believes.....etc.
Because that would mean a much more advanced dialog system, aware of your PC's race and culture. There are plenty of situations where dwarves or qunari could gain from special dialog options, why should dalish have special treatment? And then you could throw profession and background into that as well...
It's not that I don't think BW would have wanted such a system, I just guess that's something that had to be skipped/cut to be finished in time.
It is already in the game. There are special dialog options though for elves, dwarves, and mages. You can select them on the wheel during certain dialogs. I can't remember if Qunari have them. I have played one since right after the game was released.
Yeah I know (should have made that clear, sorry). I meant that you have to draw a line for how long you can take those options.It is already in the game. There are special dialog options though for elves, dwarves, and mages. You can select them on the wheel during certain dialogs. I can't remember if Qunari have them. I have played one since right after the game was released.
Florianne was an idiot and you did not really out manuever anyone but presented undeniable evidence that they were screwing each other over and used that to blackmail them, granted that is playing the game really well, but that is still kinda like taking a light saber to the head.
Yeah, I got the feeling that the victory in "Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts" was primarily along the same lines as a lot of the other victories the Inquisitor had throughout the game. Acting as a third unrelated party to conflicts that had been going on for quite some time they threw a wrench into everyone else's plans ... well simply because the people that were involved were so focused on outplaying each-other that they didn't think of taking the time to make sure those plays couldn't be discovered by the Quizzy. 
Yeah I know (should have made that clear, sorry). I meant that you have to draw a line for how long you can take those options.
Not a problem. I agree with you that you can't have the pc stand up and give a sermon on dalish belief and culture but I think that whole series conversations could have been handled a little better. Its kind of like the dalish elf player either asks questions they should already know the answer to or just ignore Morrigan completely.
I can deal with arrogance.
Stupidity was my pitfall and sadly purpesly or not that was connected to the bees jar so recruiting was needed.
Did that thing anoy me, I even refuse it to be called humanoid.
As strange as it sounds, I like Vivienne as a character because I don't like her.
If I were to meet someone like her in real life (and I have), I wouldn't be able to stand her.
But I recruit her anyway, because from a purely practical standpoint, why would I let someone like her operate unchecked? By having her close by, I can more easily keep an eye on her, as well as get valuable input into all the "behind the scenes" stuff.
In addition, I can keep her in check by quietly "non"-supporting her bid to be Divine.
Even before I looked at the epilogue, I knew that if Vivienne became Divine, then it would only be bad news. Every time she would bring it up, I would act "simple" to make her feel like she was in charge, but then the corresponding War Table operation that would come up would be easier to handle, since I at least know what "NOT" to do (i.e. anything that would give her more power, direct or otherwise).
And as tempting as it is to give her the fake heart and rub it in her face later, to do that would make me no better, and I have no reason to give her concrete evidence to be actively hostile towards me.
In a nutshell, I don't need to be heartless (not a pun, more... poetic).
Also, she does have some good points. She's right about magic, it's powerful, and those who wield it need to use it responsibly.
In combat, she's very powerful, what with my favorite specialization and all. (Knight Enchanter for the win!)
To put it all together:
She's very smart, and very powerful
She knows how to handle the more disgusting parts of running a "global" organization
She DOES have the right idea on a few points
I'd rather have someone like that on my side, rather than risk having her become an enemy later
AND...
She's not all bad. She needs to change her attitude, but I get where she's coming from.
Once you know more about her past, her current demeanor makes a lot more sense.
I don't agree with it, but I understand it more than most.
Which is why I don't blame her, since I know how she feels, but at the same time I won't let her go too far.
Why make an enemy when you can make a friend?
(even if "friend" is a bit of a stretch at times...)
The issue with Vivienne is simple - She is a conniving politician and she offers nothing of real value to the Inquisitor or the Inquisition.
She does not hold any position of significance on the Inquisition team, any information she offers to the Inquisitor can be obtained elsewhere, she is not very useful now as a squad member after the changes to the Knight Enchanter specialization, she does not contribute anything of significant value (Sera at least gives us access to Jar of Bees) and she is not romanceable.
Bottom line is that Vivienne is disposable, expendable and unnecessary. Truly, Corypheus should have sacrificed her instead of Divine Justinia. Whether she is in the Inquisition or whether she is not in the Inquisition makes very little difference apart from some moved furniture, a spa day and being annoyed. What Bioware should have done is to allow us to recruit her band of loyalist mages (she claims to represent this group that is not actually seen in game) if we did not want to ally or conscript the rebel mages and to bump up our approval points in Halamshiral (since she was supposedly the mage courtier who turned her position into one of significance). However none of those things happened.
Quite frankly, Bioware should have replaced Vivienne with Rhys. Rhys would have been disgusted with the actions of rebel mages but still believe in some form of peaceful freedom, Rhys is Wynne's son which can help fans of DAO identify with him on some level and his story with Cole (the conclusion of it) could have been resolved by us in game instead of just having it in the books.
I think one of the main issues with Vivienne, from a out-universe perspective, is that she takes away the agency from the PC.
Vivienne always has the last word. Dialogues with her are either to confirm her position or to leave things as they were before. She complains, but can't be complained at. And once recruited, there's no way to kick her out, while other members of the party can leave it for good for different reasons. So those who dislike her and/or her opinions will feel as if game design wanted to make her more infuriating.
I like what Vivienne says to Blackwall personally, I hate how Blackwall is such a simpleton and her quips at him make me laugh. I can't be honest without Blackwall being upset with me or having a go at me, why can't I just be a normal person Blackwall?!
I totally agree! I actually like the way Vivienne tells it like it is with the companions. About Blackwall in particular, she pretty much turned out to be right.
As far as the grand ball there was a couple of times when I wanted to make a snappy reply and couldn't. Regardless of the chosen PC there seems not to be enough replies for some questions and it makes the Inquisitor look like a 40 watt lightbulb.
I think one of the main issues with Vivienne, from a out-universe perspective, is that she takes away the agency from the PC.
Vivienne always has the last word. Dialogues with her are either to confirm her position or to leave things as they were before. She complains, but can't be complained at. And once recruited, there's no way to kick her out, while other members of the party can leave it for good for different reasons. So those who dislike her and/or her opinions will feel as if game design wanted to make her more infuriating.
Very nicely put. While I really like her character, and while I'm OK with her winning sometimes, it does feel like at the very least the option to tell her to stuff it should exist.
I think that, coupled with her abrasiveness, gets her a lot of hate from people who otherwise might give her a chance.
As long as your Quizzy has ears you can tell she's manipulating events to benefit herself. Cassy tells you such. Blackwall tells you such. Josey tells you such. Hell even Vivienne tells you straight your face that that is exactly what she is doing, she's not dancing around that fact in the slightest. And no, I highly doubt that any Inquisitor as they existed in game would have a chance at hell at competing against an experienced opponent in Orlesian/Mage politics unless the player was incorporating in Meta-Knowledge.
Politics is its own type of battlefield, if your unskilled while your on it there is a good chance your going to get killed.
Yes, because WE/WH never happens in the game.
I think the thing about Vivienne and Blackwall is, she literally just can't comprehend him. Blackwall sincerely wants to help others, from the bottom of his heart, no matter what. Vivienne, who has never had an unselfish thought in her life, finds him alien and threatening.
Yeah, there's a definitely an "Evil Cannot Comprehend Good" thing (as TVTropes puts it) going on with her. After so long
Thanks. I don't even think Vivienne's a bad character, she's just too much of a snake in the grass-type politician for me.
Vivienne's very strange in that she's a well-executed character, but so poorly conceived that it doesn't really made. Mary Kirby and the other writers did a great job... at presenting an aristocratic, cynical, unsympathetic, power-hungry, scheming, authoritarian ******, so... mission accomplished, I guess? 
As someone who used her as my main mage for my entire first playthrough, I was very disappointed with her role in the story. Considering her big thing is supposed to be political intrigue and maneuvering, she does nothing of value. She sits at Skyhold and you are supposed to headcanon that she is doing useful things. Wicked Hearts would have been a great mission to incorporate her. But in a cast of mostly unnecessary people, she ends up feeling the most poorly leveraged.
Oh well, at least her banter with Sera is funny. But then Sera's banter with everyone is funny.
Definitely true. Squandering opportunities seems to be a common theme with Inquisition (cough, the Mage-Templar War, cough), but if nothing else, it would have been nice to see Vivienne put her supposed political acumen into practice. As it stands, it's basically an Informed Ability, yet another "show, don't tell" issue in a game brimming with them.
I've stopped recruiting her as well. She shows a huge lack of empathy and generally comes off as a massive hypocrite. But my main problem with her is that she is written to never lose a verbal confrontation no matter how weak her position is. This is made worse by the fact that she comes across as incredibly petty and childish for someone who is supposed to be a master of the "game". The few insights into orlesian politics and the circle system she does offer are rather flippant (or downright wrong). And if you don’t agree with her views she throws a fit by moving furniture.
Agreed. It's her hypocrisy on the subject of mage rights that really gets to me. If Vivienne showed the slightest willingness to live by the rules she demanded for everyone else (a la Wynne), then at the very least, that's something about her I could respect. But no, she's all for reestablishing the Circles, but has no intention of setting foot inside one herself, or being subject to its rules.
Vivienne's position presents a false choice; according to her, you either have the status quo or mages being burnt at the stake. This ignores all the cultures where mages are accepted parts of society (Tevinter, Rivain, the Avaars, the Dalish), it ignores the status quo around apostates (mages are an accepted part of numerous mercenary companies and no one cares except the Templars), and it ignores what happens if anyone else becomes Divine. If Cassandra reforms the Circle and gives them more freedom, it works without inciting a non-mage backlash. If Leliana disbands the Circle and the mages reform the College of Enchanters, "mages recieve unprecedented acceptance".
Vivienne. Is. Wrong.
Very true.
That "monster" jumped at the opportunity to dedicate his life to making up for all the deaths he caused and he ultimately was willing to stop running and face the consequences of his reprehensible actions. Blackwall's no saint, but monster is a bit much. Besides, Josephine is perfectly willing to be with a Dwarf who was criminal and a murderer.
Indeed. And I think that's what makes Blackwall both a better person and a better character than Vivienne: he grows. He tries to better himself, to live his life in the hopes he might be found worthy of it one day. Not only is Vivienne a sociopathic tyrant, but she pretty much remains as such throughout the entire game. She doesn't grow as a person, she doesn't experience any kind of meaningful character development, and she's not engaging or likable enough to make do without. Being an awful person is bad enough, but being a flat character in the process? That's a losing combination.
She may be "competent at politics and intrigue", but the game makes absolutely no use of these talents. I have an OCD impulse to grab all the companions, but after a lot of play through's with her, I finally just got tired of bringing her lame attitude along with the Inquisition. Didn't bother to recruit her.
I understand why they put her in the game, she offers perspective on the myriad situations the Inquisitor has to deal with, but in the end a snooty elitist sour puss is just a snooty elitist sour puss.
Not cruel? At least Morrigan was open to other perspectives (evident in persuasion dialogues and her evolution into what she is in Inquisition... distancing herself from how she was raised). Vivienne couldn't give two figs for the mages of Circles persecuted and abused by Templars and she amply demonstrated avoidance of being confined in the Circle by manipulating her way through political power circles.
Wholeheartedly agree on all points.
Except when in Leliana is Divine and mages gain acceptance with the College of Enchanters, in which case she can't handle the fact that she's irrelevant and thus pretty much causes a new mage civil war simply because she wants power.
What other reason could she have when she admits the College is good at training mages and mages have gained acceptance in Thedas?
Yeah, Vivienne's loyalty is to the Circle primarily because that's from where her influence largely derives.
That is patently untrue based on her dialogue. You can dislike her for thinking the Circles are necessary, but don't pretend it's for some other reason
In Redcliffe she expresses regret and responsibility, that she should have looked harder for the Tranquil but didn't. She doesn't deny there were Templar abuses, or that those are wrong. Dangit, don't make me replay it, but she addresses all those topics.
She can be abrasive, and she's not to everyone's taste. I just think too many disagree with her points on mage freedom and manufacture other reasons to dislike her.
She pays some lip service, but her actions speak louder than words and I stand by my assessment of her character. She likes the Circles because they reinforce her viewpoint of magic (see her attitude towards Cole, Solas) and she conveniently side-steps the confinement of the Circle by playing her political games.
I don't like Vivienne, although I do recruit her on every playthrough. I never use her though. I only recruit her as she's an easy candidate for Divine.
I do like her personal quest though. It's rather sad.
On another note, others say she's such an awesome mage - personally I don't find her so. I'll stick with Solas and Dorian.
Honestly, I would have replaced Dorian or Viv with a rebel mage character, since that perspective is totally missing in the cast. Maybe it was the negative reaction to Anders. I like Dorian, but he existed to be an info dump for the new less evil Tevinter. It was kind of refreshing to have a Chantry suckup mage after DA2, but Viv's politics were self-serving rather than legitimate beliefs. Wynne did the pro-circle mage thing better I think.
She pays some lip service, but her actions speak louder than words and I stand by my assessment of her character. She likes the Circles because they reinforce her viewpoint of magic (see her attitude towards Cole, Solas) and she conveniently side-steps the confinement of the Circle by playing her political games.
Yeah, she pays lip service to the idea of everyone having had a different circle experience, but then she goes right on to labeling all the rebel mages selfish malcontents resorting to violence for their own gain.
Damn, Vivienne, that's a harsh way to describe someone who just wanted to not get raped anymore.
She has spent her entire life trying to escape the restrictions of the Circle. She just uses connections instead of explosives.
Honestly, I would have replaced Dorian or Viv with a rebel mage character, since that perspective is totally missing in the cast. Maybe it was the negative reaction to Anders. I like Dorian, but he existed to be an info dump for the new less evil Tevinter. It was kind of refreshing to have a Chantry suckup mage after DA2, but Viv's politics were self-serving rather than legitimate beliefs. Wynne did the pro-circle mage thing better I think.
Wynne had integrity.
She advocated for the system like Vivienne, but unlike Vivienne she immersed herself in it. She didn't try to escape it, never ran off to her boyfriends estate. She spent her entire life in the Circle, trying to improve it.
As much as I disagree with her views, she didn't just talk the talk. She backed that **** up.
Wynne > Vivienne. I think we can all agree on that. She even had a better bosom and she knows her drinks too.
Bottom line, Ferelden mages > Orlesian mages.
Really, Kinloch Hold mages have access to godlike mana clash, can use animate dead without becoming a necromancer, can use fireball, etc.
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