75 réponses à ce sujet

[Melbella]

Minaeve is also apparently the person Vivienne gets her info from, and then applies it as a universal truth to all Dalish everywhere. I would also like to know how she (Viv) knows more about Tal'Vashoth practices than do my qunari Inquisitors. Really annoying that you can't ever correct her wrong thinking and instead have to allow her the last word as if it's absolute fact.

[Gervaise]

The story about Dalish clans having only two mages because they couldn't deal with any more than that was an absolute travesty and like Xilizhra says must be regarded as either an exception or a retcon.    The Dalish teach that they were all once possessed of magic (true) and thus those with it are closer to being what they once were.    Magic is thought to be a gift of the gods.    World of Thedas 1 says that magic is a "proud part of their culture".    Given how hard they have fought to retain and relearn their culture, it is actually impossible to think that any clan would actually abandon any child in the wilderness to die, much less a mage.    The Keeper has to be a mage.   That is why Sabrae clan were gifted Merrill by her birth clan because it was evidently considered selfish to have more than two mages when another clan was lacking, not because she was surplus to requirements and it was thus a convenient way to be rid of her.   

 

Mind you, on the whole, the clans we have met in game seem to have been willing enough to take in non Dalish elves who wish to join them.   The shopkeeper in the Alienage even recounts how raiders left him with his goods when they realised he was an elf.   Then in Masked Empire the Keeper suggests that clans that do so are the rarity and do so out of misguided pity but that he considers them to be poor cousins, lost to them forever.   Weekes obviously wanted to make this clan seem as unsympathetic as possible, so it would be okay for Celene's party to abandon them to be ripped apart by a demon but even that Keeper says of Briala "Is she at least a mage?" implying that he would have been more enthusiastic about her joining them if she was.   So the idea presented in DAI that the clans will dump surplus mages runs totally contrary to all previous lore.

 

I would point out though that Minaeve and Vivienne aren't the only source of this story as Bull says the same things about Dalish, who appears to confirm his account.

[In Exile]

Yes it is. Or at least a sizable minority, given that no other clan anywhere exhibits that feature; Zathrian's clan had more than three mages and never exiled anyone, which we're certain of, and Clan Lavellan didn't do so either. The other four we know about didn't have it mentioned one way or another, but nothing in any universe indicates that Minaeve's clan is anything more than an aberration.

 

This is the retcon debate. Bull's Dalish mage was also exiled for being mage #4. And it's common knowledge that the Dalish do this - see Vivienne's rants. It's not up for debate that in DA:I, this is the standard Dalish practice. 

 

As to DA:O, no. Zathrian's clan had, at most, three mages, if we count the enemies we meet during the massacre of the Dalish by the werewolves as reflective of the number of mages in the clan rather than a total gameplay contrivance. Wynne's apprentice wasn't part of the clan. Otherwise, Zathrian's clan had two mages: Lanaya and Zathrian. 

 

Merril's clan appears to have had three mages - Merril, Marethari, and that other old woman who I think replaces Marethari if she dies and Hawke doesn't click one of the two "accidental genocide" options. 

[Xilizhra]

This is the retcon debate. Bull's Dalish mage was also exiled for being mage #4.

She is a ****** liar. She has vallaslin. She was exiled after she became an adult, and unless she came into magic at an incredibly late age, she was exiled for some other reason.

 

 

And it's common knowledge that the Dalish do this - see Vivienne's rants. It's not up for debate that in DA:I, this is the standard Dalish practice.

Vivienne is also a ****** liar, in addition to the fact that the Dalish PC can flat-out deny her statement.

 

 

As to DA:O, no. Zathrian's clan had, at most, three mages, if we count the enemies we meet during the massacre of the Dalish by the werewolves as reflective of the number of mages in the clan rather than a total gameplay contrivance. Wynne's apprentice wasn't part of the clan. Otherwise, Zathrian's clan had two mages: Lanaya and Zathrian.

No. Lanaya mentioned competing with others, plural, to become First. And saying that Aneirin isn't part of the clan is based on, well, nothing at all.

[In Exile]

The story about Dalish clans having only two mages because they couldn't deal with any more than that was an absolute travesty and like Xilizhra says must be regarded as either an exception or a retcon.    The Dalish teach that they were all once possessed of magic (true) and thus those with it are closer to being what they once were.    Magic is thought to be a gift of the gods.    World of Thedas 1 says that magic is a "proud part of their culture".    Given how hard they have fought to retain and relearn their culture, it is actually impossible to think that any clan would actually abandon any child in the wilderness to die, much less a mage.    The Keeper has to be a mage.   That is why Sabrae clan were gifted Merrill by her birth clan because it was evidently considered selfish to have more than two mages when another clan was lacking, not because she was surplus to requirements and it was thus a convenient way to be rid of her.   

 

Mind you, on the whole, the clans we have met in game seem to have been willing enough to take in non Dalish elves who wish to join them.   The shopkeeper in the Alienage even recounts how raiders left him with his goods when they realised he was an elf.   Then in Masked Empire the Keeper suggests that clans that do so are the rarity and do so out of misguided pity but that he considers them to be poor cousins, lost to them forever.   Weekes obviously wanted to make this clan seem as unsympathetic as possible, so it would be okay for Celene's party to abandon them to be ripped apart by a demon but even that Keeper says of Briala "Is she at least a mage?" implying that he would have been more enthusiastic about her joining them if she was.   So the idea presented in DAI that the clans will dump surplus mages runs totally contrary to all previous lore.

 

I would point out though that Minaeve and Vivienne aren't the only source of this story as Bull says the same things about Dalish, who appears to confirm his account.

 

The Dalish ubermensch fantasy about magic has nothing to do with their actual practice. The Dalish trade mages between their clans like objects. One clan is down a few mages, and suddenly a child is torn from their family and thrown to a different clan and culture so that the ubersmench magic oligarchy can propagate itself. It's such a proud part of their culture to be a mage that they complete erase any right of self-determination on the part of a mage if a Dalish clan happens to be down on their necessary quota of mages for a generation. 

 

The Dalish didn't fight hard to retain their culture. They fled into the woods and became immediately irrelevant to Orlais and the surrounding human nations. If you want a group of elves that "fight" to retain their culture, racist and awful though it may be, look at the Scoia'tel from the Witcher series. The Dalish are nomands, and their entire existence is based around avoiding humans and doing everything possible not to antagonize them.

 

It's entirely consistent with Dalish culture to invent a narrative about the greatness of mages while doing something totally different in practice with respect to their treatment. 

 

As to the Dalish prejudiced attitudes about CEs, that's a fundamental part of the setting since DA:O. We see them insist on the total and absolute erasure of any CE culture in their converts - abandonment of Andrastianism, tribal markings, etc. - and their narrative about the CEs is all about their inherent inferiority and lack of worth as a culture. Just look at their DA:O codex entry:

 

 

It is hard to tell our children about those of our people who have decided to live in the shemlen's cities. They ask, "Why would anyone want to be treated like that?" And sometimes I do not know what to say. I do not understand it myself. They were freed, but they have returned to live in the service of their former masters. They are housed like animals in walled sections of the shemlen's cities. They do the meanest of tasks and are rewarded with nothing. Why? I do not know.

 

We tell the children that the elvhen are strong, that we are a proud people, but they hear of these city elves who choose to toil under the humans' heavy hand. How do we teach them pride when they know there are others who would allow themselves to be trampled into the dust? So we tell them that these city elves are to be pitied, that they have given up on their people, given up their heritage. We tell them that some people are so used to being controlled that, when freed, they know not what to do with themselves. They are weak and afraid--afraid of the unfamiliar, afraid of our life of wandering. Above all, they are afraid even to hope that one day we may have a home of our own.

[In Exile]

She is a ****** liar. She has vallaslin. She was exiled after she became an adult, and unless she came into magic at an incredibly late age, she was exiled for some other reason.

 

Vivienne is also a ****** liar, in addition to the fact that the Dalish PC can flat-out deny her statement.

 

No. Lanaya mentioned competing with others, plural, to become First. And saying that Aneirin isn't part of the clan is based on, well, nothing at all.

 

Your inability to handle an unfavourable retcon - if that is what this is - does not make a character a liar. Even in the world where the Dalish abandon their mages to the wild to starve to death, they clearly need to have a bunch of spares up to the point they settle on what three mages to keep. That's just sensible practice. That's not an inconsistency. 

 

Anaerin isn't part of the clan based on the literal things people say about him, and the fact he lives in the forest by himself. More importantly, the timeline does not make sense, because Zathrian's clan was never in that forest at the time when Anaerin escaped. 

[Xilizhra]

Your inability to handle an unfavourable retcon - if that is what this is - does not make a character a liar. Even in the world where the Dalish abandon their mages to the wild to starve to death, they clearly need to have a bunch of spares up to the point they settle on what three mages to keep. That's just sensible practice. That's not an inconsistency. 

 

Anaerin isn't part of the clan based on the literal things people say about him, and the fact he lives in the forest by himself. More importantly, the timeline does not make sense, because Zathrian's clan was never in that forest at the time when Anaerin escaped. 

No, my ability to comprehend Dalish cultural practices and how magic works is what makes her a liar. She cannot have been exiled for the cause of having too many mages, otherwise she wouldn't have vallaslin.

 

Citation needed on Aneirin. Actual quotes, please.

[In Exile]

No, my ability to comprehend Dalish cultural practices and how magic works is what makes her a liar. She cannot have been exiled for the cause of having too many mages, otherwise she wouldn't have vallaslin.

 

You clearly can't comprehend their cultural practices, since it's an established fact following DA:I that this is the cultural practice. You can argue it's stupid, that it's a retcon, that it's inconsistent with other established practices, that Bioware didn't think it through, but you cannot deny that it is a fact of the setting. 

 

I've given you a perfectly plausible reason as to why the Dalish would make someone an adult and exile them. This is a game. Lore mistakes can just be human error. 

[Xilizhra]

You clearly can't comprehend their cultural practices, since it's an established fact following DA:I that this is the cultural practice. You can argue it's stupid, that it's a retcon, that it's inconsistent with other established practices, that Bioware didn't think it through, but you cannot deny that it is a fact of the setting.

Actually, DAI failed to establish it. It's a cultural practice of one clan; that's all we can say. If WoT volume 2 says otherwise, please cite.

 

 

I've given you a perfectly plausible reason as to why the Dalish would make someone an adult and exile them. This is a game. Lore mistakes can just be human error. 

Actually, you didn't. It'd only be plausible if multiple mages showed up all at once and the clan picked and chose among them, which I'm reasonably sure is not how reproduction works.

[Abyss108]

You can play a Dalish mage and say your clan doesn't abandon mage children. 

 

I'm going to need more than the word of one very angry Elf who came from a shitty clan to convince me its a retcon.

[Steelcan]

So whose gonna tell Minaeve that Dalish don't actually abandon spare mages? Was it all in her head?

[Xilizhra]

So whose gonna tell Minaeve that Dalish don't actually abandon spare mages? Was it all in her head?

You actually can say what your and other clans did, but she just ignores it.

[Steelcan]

You actually can say what your and other clans did, but she just ignores it.

because it happens regardless, probably not just in one clan.

[Xilizhra]

because it happens regardless, probably not just in one clan.

It happened in one clan, yes, but probably not in many others, if any.

[Steelcan]

It happened in one clan, yes, but probably not in many others, if any.

based on? The experiences of a few other clans that are also not necessarily representative of the Dalish as a whole?

[Mistic]

You can play a Dalish mage and say your clan doesn't abandon mage children. 

 

I'm going to need more than the word of one very angry Elf who came from a shitty clan to convince me its a retcon.

 

In the end, I think it boils down to what Solas warned us about: Dalish clans are different and are becoming even more different the more time passes. A lot of discussions tend to consider them as homogeneous as Ferelden, but I think the Free Marches are a far better comparison.

 

Occam's razor suggests that everyone is telling the truth about their own clans. Generalization is the mistake. But it goes both ways; it would be a mistake to think every Dalish clan is like the Lavellans (who so far hold the prize of 'nicest Dalish ever').

[Tidus]

My Dalish Elf goes after the mages.. The reason being I have a enemy in my back door so, I eliminate that threat first and destroy the Tevinter threat.. Stop the red Templars with a avalanche.

 

It was a decisive victory. 

[dragonflight288]

Dalish culture is inconsistent as to magic. They worship it in a sense - they apparently see the world where they were all mages as some kind of ubermensch ideal, which is a pretty unhealthy story to perpetrate to the mundanes - but they also treat their mages like cattle, trading them around from clan to clan. It's a different kind of gilded cage, and that's before we get into an argument as to whether DA:I retconned how the Dalish treat surplus mages. 

 

They do trade non-mages as well. It's how they maintain genetic diversity and not have a lot of inbreeding. But because the Dalish respect magic and mages and see them as guides and Keepers of history they try to have them in every clan.

 

The game simply retconned that some clans that have too many offer mages to clans that don't have enough to be abandoning them if the number of mages are too high.

 

EDIT: Someone beat me to it and I didn't read everything. 

Modifié par dragonflight288, 13 février 2016 - 10:15 .

[dragonflight288]

In the end, I think it boils down to what Solas warned us about: Dalish clans are different and are becoming even more different the more time passes. A lot of discussions tend to consider them as homogeneous as Ferelden, but I think the Free Marches are a far better comparison.

 

Occam's razor suggests that everyone is telling the truth about their own clans. Generalization is the mistake. But it goes both ways; it would be a mistake to think every Dalish clan is like the Lavellans (who so far hold the prize of 'nicest Dalish ever').

 

True. It's also a mistake to think all clans are like the ones who are closer to bandits, which we know also exist, or full of stupid like in Masked Empire with the whole demon thing. 

[Abyss108]

In the end, I think it boils down to what Solas warned us about: Dalish clans are different and are becoming even more different the more time passes. A lot of discussions tend to consider them as homogeneous as Ferelden, but I think the Free Marches are a far better comparison.

 

Occam's razor suggests that everyone is telling the truth about their own clans. Generalization is the mistake. But it goes both ways; it would be a mistake to think every Dalish clan is like the Lavellans (who so far hold the prize of 'nicest Dalish ever').

 

This, exactly. Minerve's clan did this. Lavellan's didn't. Just like some clans are closer to bandits, whilst some trade peacefully with humans. There's no "retcon", just different attitudes from different clans.

 

 

 

Since Minerve is the only example we've seen of this practice, and the lore has stated Dalish generally don't have this attitude, I'm going to assume her's is the anomaly, instead of the entire lore of the Dalish being rewritten because of one example.

[dragonflight288]

Minaeve is also apparently the person Vivienne gets her info from, and then applies it as a universal truth to all Dalish everywhere. I would also like to know how she (Viv) knows more about Tal'Vashoth practices than do my qunari Inquisitors. Really annoying that you can't ever correct her wrong thinking and instead have to allow her the last word as if it's absolute fact.

 

That IS quite annoying. 

 

Here I am, a Vashoth Mage never raised in the Qun and taught magic by other Tal-Vashoth and she's preaching to me the practices of the Qunari and their mages.

 

Hello, if I were put of the Qun, I would have a collar, my horns cut off and likely my tongue removed. 

[dragonflight288]

No, my ability to comprehend Dalish cultural practices and how magic works is what makes her a liar. She cannot have been exiled for the cause of having too many mages, otherwise she wouldn't have vallaslin.

 

Citation needed on Aneirin. Actual quotes, please.

 

Dalish could easily have been in a position like Velanna in Awakening or Merrill in DA2. Leave the clan of her own volition (Merrill) or be exiled for a crime (Velanna.) Dalish could simply be giving Bull a line.

 

The real problem in Inquisition however, is that with both her and Minaeve, and Vivienne if the Inquisitor is a mage, is that there are no good examples of the Dalish in the game, unlike Origins with Lanaya, and no counterarguments made against them in-game. The only opportunity to offer counterarguments come from a Dalish Inquisitor. 

 

Minaeve says he clan abandoned her, Lavellan says he clan doesn't do that. We can figure Merrill's clan didn't abandon her, they gave her to a clan that needed more mages as they were short. A practice that is applied to non-mages as well in order to prevent inbreeding. Lanaya had to compete with more than one candidate to become first, and it's quite remarkable because a city-elf who was a slave to bandits becomes one.

 

Odds are over the course of three games that Minaeve's clan is an outlier. 

 

As for Aneiren, he outright tells us he doesn't really consider himself part of the clan any more than he considers himself a Circle mage. He's at home in the woods on his own, but he'll stay nearby and help the clan.

[Gervaise]

The other weird thing is the young age of a lot of the mages when they come into their powers.    World of Thedas 1 says it is usual for magic to manifest itself at puberty.   This would normally occur after around 12 years of age because the onset of puberty tended to be later rather than earlier in medieval times.   So the mage would be given to another clan at around the time they would be thinking whether they did need the bloodlines to be more diverse, whether they were a mage or not.   Every society in Thedas seems to have arranged marriages and even if they are not consummated at that age, who is to say a young person might not be sent to stay with their spouses family until the appropriate time.   So either you say that every society treats people like objects or stop singling out what the Dalish do in such a negative way.

 

However, I'm pretty sure that Minaeve says she was a lot younger than that.   We also have mage Emil de Launcet in DA2 saying he has been in the Circle since he was six and Dorian being sent to boarding school at the age of 9.    I wish the writers would be consistent in what they write as it would avoid a lot of unnecessary argument.  

[Mistic]

I wish the writers would be consistent in what they write as it would avoid a lot of unnecessary argument.  

 

True. World of Thedas mentions the "puberty" part, but we've seen so many examples of mages discovering powers when they were younger that the rule seems to be the exception. It's as if the authors aren't sure themselves if they are more like mutants in the Marvel universe or like mage children in Harry Potter.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Regarding the original topic, it's actually not super hard to come up with reasons for a Dalish Elf, even a Dalish Mage, might have to side with the Templars. Maybe they are just so disgusted by the mages turning to Tevinter to help that they rush to aid whatever the alternative is. Maybe they feel Fiona's Mage Rebellion is a negative influence on Thedas because of all the chaos that followed. Clan Lavellan was threatened by the Mage-Templar war, after all. Or maybe they simply feel that the Templars' powers have the most utility in combating the Breach. 

 

Dalish and Templars have often had a troubled history, but they aren't eachother's central enemy. So perhaps an Elf Mage could see them as well-meaning adversaries or perhaps one enjoys playing an "enemies must unite against a common threat" story.

 

I already have a Templar playthrough so my Dalish Elf Mage is going to side with the Mages, but she identifies as being a Dalish Elf before she sees herself as a mage. As such she feels little particular kinship to the Circle Mages.

 

Oh and regarding Aneirin, he's not part of Zathrian's Clan anymore, but he was once. And he left on his own so that would support the multiple mages idea. It's not like he would have gotten his Vallasline anywhere else.