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[SwobyJ]

...Cerberus and tried to help them take out the Council and weaken the Citadel, because he caught wind of a secret ark project by the rest of the Council since ME1, to abandon the Milky Way, with them and other elites on board?

 

Interesting bits that come to mind:

-sudden Udina betrayal of Council (he may have had Cerberus contacts previously but we learn in sidequests how they 'work' contacts in politics to try to keep them loyal or make them more loyal)

-Udina love for humanity and getting support for Earth "We may have a spot on the Council, but humanity will always be second-rate"

-Manswell expedition being a sort of thing that happens

-Virtual Aliens being in contact with Council, with a virtual ark recreation of a civilization

-Citadel DLC having previously not known takedown of emerging AI(?); perhaps secret awareness of study of them happened behind the scenes beyond overt legal bans

-Citadel DLC flashing of the Ark of Covenant

-Citadel DLC showing beginning of SPECTRES and how willing the Council is of affirming sneaky and unethical means

-Council declaring Reapers a myth and largely disavowing Shepard unless you're the most appealing you can be to them (the originals survive ME1, you're paragon with them)

-'continuity of civilization to consider'

-Council may not initially support a Crucible plan because they think they can already be covered, not just by securing borders, but by maintaining borders until their own plan is complete

-narrative of trilogy keeps harping on how politicians are so bad (this doesn't literally mean it, but it could over time guide audience to accepting Council doing something like this)

-Udina doesn't just try to get away from Shepard, he outright pushes the Asari Councilor away. We know he's a jerk and that things are desperate in the plot, but what if he also specifically disrespects the Councilor because he knows what she's up to?

-Salarians are the most technologically minded of the Council and they both offer the least support (in most cases players will choose) and have the least encroachment of both Reapers (until nearing the end) and Cerberus (except when they specifically targeted possibility of Krogan alliance and I guess if we count the MP map haha). Could the ark be built here?

-this would continue the story of Shepard only being considered a tool by many, even as he surpasses expectations over time and rebels against control and gains a following in short order. The Council would see Shepard as someone who doesn't need to know, so he doesn't know. Anderson is following Cerberus leads so he also doesn't get to know and sniff the trail. Udina is into more typical politics so he doesn't know until Cerberus perhaps tells him.

-Asari: "Have you considered that the Reapers destroyed the Prothians? What good did this weapon do?"; could mean nothing, or it could tip that the Council has already considered that anything Prothian would probably not be enough to defeat the Reapers, so they have to make their own way. "The cruel and unfortunate truth is that while the Reapers focus on Earth, we can PREPARE AND REGROUP." The Reapers at this point are largely in Batarian and Human space and now starting to invade Turian space. Otherwise they're mostly just reaching the borders of other territories. Regroup could still, of course, just mean regroup to fight the Reapers, but it could also mean regrouping to advance the Council's own plan, protected by Salarian intelligence.

-point is made in script that the Asari Councilor is personally involved in the investigation of Udina's office: "I want all remaining files secured and marked for Tentron Clearance only." I could be wrong, but this may mean its only for the Council's viewing.

-Asari hid that they hold a major prothian beacon. We don't know how far their understanding of it may be, but they could have actually had a degree of knowledge that could support the experimental construction of an ark.

-The Council dismissed the existence of the Reapers but STG didn't. There's some obvious reasons for this, but how could it be that they can figure it out but the Council actually goes to the point of "LALALALALA"? There's denial and then there's complete idiocy. If there was construction of an ark, only known to those with highest clearance, this could be learned by STG and further their suspicions. Heck, if the highest level STG was itself protecting the existence of the ark (and they're touted as the very best spies in the galaxy; SPECTRES are more of an aggressive agent), that'd bring up plenty of alarm bells even as they continued to do their job about it.

 

 

This doesn't mean the ark launches in ME3. The other side of this is that the Council clearly gets desperate and does turn to the Crucible for resolution against the Reapers, who are coming too hard, too fast, and need a big galactic explosion in order to properly counter at all. Even in the theory that the Reapers know about the Crucible and have curiosity or plans about it (IT or Literal or whatever else), it could be understandable that the Reapers think that any 'secret' stuff is instead the 'not so entirely hidden except its location' Crucible, instead of a truly more secret ark. The Crucible happens and does a thing, but now there's a big vehicle ready or almost ready, and built for purpose of exploration and living and expansion. So the post-ME3 galaxy decides that it can be used in an effort to understand beyond the galaxy, since the Reapers came so close to killing everyone.

 

Udina could have caught wind of the plan though, seen the Council as spineless cowards with no respect for Humanity, and instead lashed out and perhaps ditched the Alliance Crucible plan for the Cerberus one, since this was still at a point where Shepard's only major success in the war was acquiring Krogan support for a still-losing ground war on Palaven, and there's never any specific love for Shepard from Udina. And for Udina, if Cerberus was correct about the Council, what else could the be correct on?

 

EDIT: When it comes to the Destroy/Control/Synthesis waves, I don't know. I've considered all the other content than that, and I kinda prefer to not think about it for this specific theory.

 

 

EDIT: Most of this isn't really a new theory, of course, but I was just focusing on how it could relate to Udina's behavior and intentions.

 

EDIT: That thread also brings up the idea of a cold war bunker. Indeed, if MEA is like the post-WWII to the trilogy's WWII (especially ME3), then some writing justification would be that there was always some contingency plans in place since at least the Rachni Wars or Krogan Rebellions, only fast tracked since ME1 into a usable form to leave the galaxy (since learning of the failure of Prothians to bunker), and hyper tracked since the Reaper invasion, and still not necessarily complete by the Battle of Earth.

[Draining Dragon]

No. Just no.

[SwobyJ]

No. Just no.

 

That sounds like more of a distaste than a rebuttal. I'm not saying I even like this stuff. When I theorize I try to keep my appeal for the idea out of it, even if that doesn't always succeed.

 

Am I wrong though (distaste)?

[Draining Dragon]

That sounds like more of a distaste than a rebuttal. I'm not saying I even like this stuff. When I theorize I try to keep my appeal for the idea out of it, even if that doesn't always succeed.
 
Am I wrong though (distaste)?

Mostly distaste for Udina.

With regards to your theory, Udina was not a very important or interesting character. He was more of a plot device. I doubt he's going to play a major role in Andromeda, since most of his actions can be explained by him being your typical corrupt politician.

[SwobyJ]

Mostly distaste for Udina.

With regards to your theory, Udina was not a very important or interesting character. He was more of a plot device. I doubt he's going to play a major role in Andromeda, since most of his actions can be explained by him being your typical corrupt politician.

 

I didn't say he was going to....

 

He's dead.

 

My post was about Bioware providing his betrayal as part of writing foundations of how an ark could be a thing. That him turning on the Council so bad wasn't indoctrination (as we're even given examples later about how one isn't necessarily indoctrinated for Cerberus; Volus ambassador, Petrovski), or pure greed (optionally talking with him in his office seems to show someone fiercely though misguidedly dedicated to humanity along with his personal ambitions), but an exact turning point where he doesn't see the Council itself being worth alive.

I'd say that learning that they're intending to step into a special ship for themselves if things get rough enough (a common trope), would be that. Sour opinion about the Council would quickly turn into rebellion, yet he's killed before we learn anything about it.

 

I don't like Udina, I'd want him to stay in ME3 and maybe never come back (even in some virtual representation or whatever), and I don't want him to be important ever again, but this was just a take on the vague events we saw, added with possible Council hints added from the Citadel Archives (the Ark of Covenant more likely being a tease from Bioware than exactly a canon indication of things; I can't see the Council caring specifically about that artifact haha).

[Draining Dragon]

Right, sorry. I wasn't very clear in my post. What I meant was, I doubt he's going to tie into the premise of Andromeda at all. Udina was not a very complex character. The corrupt politician is a well-established trope for writers to fall back on. Your theory isn't absurd, but this just doesn't sound to me like the sort of twist Bioware would write.

[Bowlcuts]

I'm pretty sure Udina only joined with Cerberus out of desperation for help to come to Earth. So, Cerberus told him to secure the council so they would allegedly be forced to send their fleets to Earth.

[SwobyJ]

I'm pretty sure Udina only joined with Cerberus out of desperation for help to come to Earth. So, Cerberus told him to secure the council so they would allegedly be forced to send their fleets to Earth.

 

I think that works in ME3, don't get me wrong.

 

But I do wonder about how much planning Bioware puts into each future game. Not enough for any solid plot, but 'tendrils' of ideas? Honestly, maybe.

 

If there was to be no more ME games after ME3 I'd have to automatically agree with you. Its the fact that that there's a MEA that makes me consider what, well, the writers considered. Again, no solid plot, but ark ships have been a thing since side-ME2 material.

[Kabooooom]

I like the idea of Udina being slightly less of a spineless douche-canoe. I approve of the hypothesis that had he known about the Council secretly constructing an ark (or planning to utilize one previously constructed during the Rachni War, which I find more likely), and had he found out about it indirectly (ie- the others on the Council didnt tell him)...then he obviously would have assumed that they were trying to screw humanity once again and would have taken matters into his own hands.

[SwobyJ]

I like the idea of Udina being slightly less of a spineless douche-canoe. I approve of the hypothesis that had he known about the Council secretly constructing an ark (or planning to utilize one previously constructed during the Rachni War, which I find more likely), and had he found out about it indirectly (ie- the others on the Council didnt tell him)...then he obviously would have assumed that they were trying to screw humanity once again and would have taken matters into his own hands.

 

Yes exactly. Hey I hate Udina too, but I don't find it an un-Bioware thing to add even minor levels of new understanding to characters from previous (ME3 being previous now) games. That's not a retcon by their reckoning - even if it is to many of us - but just an addition to the lore/narrative.

 

Whether its a good one, if actually true, is up to us. Personally I'm....ehhhh...I dunno.....about it. Even just the idea that the Council being 'WHAT REAPERS? THEY MYTH.' since ME2, no matter the sekret reasoning (even if any amazing one), is irksome, so anything tied into that is irksome by association.

 

EDIT: IMO there's a whole 'thing' about Shepard just being a soldier fighting in the dark (literally, symbolically, whatever), so I'd understand Bioware making us, I dunno, an explorer reaching the light - aka getting some new understandings of what happened in the trilogy, even if they're on their own new adventure. This would hypothetically be one of those new understandings.

[ZipZap2000]

I stopped reading at Cerberus. Similar to what I'd do if i were reading something about how Cerberus are in the game.

[SwobyJ]

I stopped reading at Cerberus. Similar to what I'd do if i were reading something about how Cerberus are in the game.

 

I think a lot would. I cringed at reading in 

Spoiler

the supposed leak that there was a shuttle or something with Cerberus logo

. Not for myself because that doesn't stop me from playing, personally, but I know that'd be the case for at least thousands of otherwise fans of the series.

[themikefest]

I like Udina.

[ZipZap2000]

I think a lot would. I cringed at reading in

Spoiler

the supposed leak that there was a shuttle or something with Cerberus logo

. Not for myself because that doesn't stop me from playing, personally, but I know that'd be the case for at least thousands of otherwise fans of the series.

Fingers crossed.

[SwobyJ]

Fingers crossed.

 

I don't mind Cerberus-but-lighter wannabes* coming just as long as they buzz off and let the main plot be the main plot.

 

*Just as I wouldn't mind seeing N7-but-..darker? wannabes coming just as long as they don't smack N7 in my face all the time. I'm personally more quickly annoyed by seeing N7 on everyone as a freakin fashion statement or huge logo for the series, than I am of any single Cerberus thing (except maybe Kai Leng; he was botched badly).

 

*Above both N7 and Cerberus, I really hope we at least move beyond both for the most part after this game. Okay, the Milky Way is hanging on as an ark ship, so symbolically that may mean that versions of N7 and Cerberus does too, sure, but time for the new as well. When I see ARKCON and 'Pathfinder Initiative', I'm curious and worried but also pleased that Bioware is going to give us new things too. If our protagonist ends up some neo mix of an N7 soldier and Cerberus agent but within a new Pathfinder explorer main archetype, all for it - just keep the Cerberus relatively low. I appreciate continuity of setting big time, but I also want this to be at least the start of a next generation (same as how I hope we never see or hear much of Ferelden for a while in Dragon Age, after 3 games with ties to it or directly exploring it; I also hope Wardens get a final day in the spotlight in one more game then fade away in emphasis, etc).

[Display Name Owner]

Honestly I feel like there's no point even bothering to try fleshing out Udina's whole thing. His plan was stupid and I don't see any real need to legitimise it now. I'd rather just keep that nonsense out of Andromeda's plot, even peripherally.

 

Also, this whole thing would both paint Cerberus as the good guys and the Council as villains, which I for one don't much like. I mean, the Council weren't nearly as bad as we were for some reason meant to think they were and personally I don't want any more of the 'damn politicians' thing piled on unnecessarily.

[SwobyJ]

Honestly I feel like there's no point even bothering to try fleshing out Udina's whole thing. His plan was stupid and I don't see any real need to legitimise it now. I'd rather just keep that nonsense out of Andromeda's plot, even peripherally.

 

Also, this whole thing would both paint Cerberus as the good guys and the Council as villains, which I for one don't much like. I mean, the Council weren't nearly as bad as we were for some reason meant to think they were and personally I don't want any more of the 'damn politicians' thing piled on unnecessarily.

 

I do have to say that my imagination includes a lot of ideas of how the Alliance itself isn't so shiny either, mind (though that's somewhat another topic). And I'd actually, honestly, very much understand the Council doing this kind of project in itself. They may be elitist bastards but they also:

1)Clearly went as long as possible to give the galaxy a chance, even if not leaping to the Crucible plan and Shepard's word

2)Lived in a place with the most distance from conflict, and this is an issue for most living there, and a RL issue for, well, anyone distanced from conflict; I can see them doing things that gave them their own sense of control and safety

3)With understandings of the Reapers, frankly, it would make a lot of sense to prepare to bug out and take what and who you can with you; while galactic civilization needs to keep stable until then

 

Does it include the 'damn politicians'? Yes, but in this case, it only continues an existing descriptor of the Council. What it'd also do is  show how they have the interests of many in mind. If the Reapers really seemed so unstoppable from data acquired, it is perfectly understandable that there would be a plan to take what can be taken and put it somewhere safer. That they wouldn't tell Udina isn't even necessarily hating humans, but just distrust of such a fresh member. 

 

I don't see the problem with having Cerberus be sometimes helpful in some ways. That's been true since ME2 and including 'retcon' of Cerberus involvement with creating Normandy SR-1. We can still disagree with and very much oppose Cerberus' Crucible and Reaper intentions, while acknowledging that it was one of the sneakiest political moves for the Council to treat Udina in this way about this theoretical Ark project, and Udina learning of that plus Council hands-off about Earth brought him to be a Cerberus tool for a coup.

 

ME3 contained speculation about Udina's intent but the script did leave it open about why he did what he did. Some bits about indoctrination, some bits about believing in Cerberus, but we don't really know.

 

The plan would have worked if only Shepard wasn't there. We're used to Shepard God Mode Fix Most Big Things, but if Shepard wasn't there, its unlikely that Thane/VS/Kirrahe would have stopped Kai Leng from taking and/or killing the Council, and apparently placing Udina in charge just as humanity has been filling in the rest of power positions on the Citadel.

 

What also just came to mind was Udina getting the VS Spectre status. This could fit the mould as well - seeking a personal agent to investigate the Council and protect him against them if need be. As we see with the standoff, VS can actually (in heat of decision making) be partial to Udina, likely with some gratitude for such an appointment, so you have to have sway with VS to talk them down. Getting Bailey for potential Cerberus recruitment makes sense for Cerberus , but getting VS for Udina seems to make more sense for Udina, at least in any sort of shorter term.

 

Udina 'moving sums of money' so quickly doesn't sound like Udina being totally for Cerberus early on, but doing a quick movement towards a bigger allegiance to them - again, perhaps because he learned something. (Hell, we can actually take the Salarian Councilor's "Otherwise..." towards Shepard as not lightly, but instead an indication that the Council beyond Udina can be dirty in their own ways.)

 

This is getting well into conspiracy theory now so gonnastopnowbye. Just saying there's places this may go, in my opinion.

[SporkFu]

On the first entry of the video logs about Kai Leng at Cerberus HQ, TIM tells Leng to contact Udina and that Udina is 'amenable' to helping them. No further details. I remember the first time I played ME3 I thought Udina was maybe not such a bad guy, because I felt his frustration in trying to get help from the other councilors and getting stonewalled again. Later at Huerta Memorial, when walking in on him pushing the VS for an answer about becoming a spectre, He walked out as soon as I walked in, and without a sideways glance, muttered, "Shepard." I thought, 'ah same old Udina.' and it was good because I didn't want to like the guy, heh.

[Le Pointy Finger Man]

I'd rather he didn't.

[Midnight Bliss]

If Udina joined people could have had free black hair dye.

[Para9on So1dier]

I'll still shoot him when I play ME3 again, he tries to turn Ash against me

 

And if that is the case I say let the original three council races have their Ark, humans can form a new council and build our own Ark full of Humans (our women are prettier than Asari), Krogan (Tougher than Turians without the Genophage, and have equal lifespan to Asari) & Quarians (Maybe smarter than Salarians, maybe not, but they are fairly smart when it comes to tech) And then we'll have a milky way, civil war.

 

More war!

 

[SwobyJ]

I'll still shoot him when I play ME3 again, he tries to turn Ash against me
 
And if that is the case I say let the original three council races have their Ark, humans can form a new council and build our own Ark full of Humans (our women are prettier than Asari), Krogan (Tougher than Turians without the Genophage, and have equal lifespan to Asari) & Quarians (Maybe smarter than Salarians, maybe not, but they are fairly smart when it comes to tech) And then we'll have a milky way, civil war.
 
More war!
 

 
"Yeah, lets follow up war with more war." Prophetic words from Normandy crew.

[Pearl (rip bioware)]

My opinion on this theory hinges on one thing: How deep would Cerberus' involvement in MEA be, using this as a basis? Perhaps you answered this in a reply (or somewhere in the massive block of text that I could barely skim without getting a headache), but I didn't see it if you did.

[Ahriman]

I think you are overanalyze that. This mission was written for shooting things on Citadel, shooting Udina to be specific. Bioware probably didn't have a plan for sequel until Citadel DLC.

 

And if that is the case I say let the original three council races have their Ark, humans can form a new council and build our own Ark full of Humans (our women are prettier than Asari), Krogan (Tougher than Turians without the Genophage, and have equal lifespan to Asari) & Quarians (Maybe smarter than Salarians, maybe not, but they are fairly smart when it comes to tech) And then we'll have a milky way, civil war.

 

More war!

Damn humans. They have entire galaxy to war with, but noo, they need to bring up old conflicts.

[SwobyJ]

My opinion on this theory hinges on one thing: How deep would Cerberus' involvement in MEA be, using this as a basis? Perhaps you answered this in a reply (or somewhere in the massive block of text that I could barely skim without getting a headache), but I didn't see it if you did.

 

Just a guess off the top of my head?: Smaller remnant offshoot. Less big evil army than ME3 but still martial. Maybe like the relatively nicer face of ME2 but more genuine since it may be post-TIM-machinations. Its less that they are a big deal post-ME3, but more that they could still be a variable in some plot, carried along after events of the trilogy. If they knew about the ark, then after TIM and Battle of Earth, not all of them would be husk puppets, and not all of them would be found, and not all of them would give up. They would attach to human prospects, and an ark could be the biggest one for them to infiltrate.

 

Omega comic and DLC was some of the most boring parts of ME to me, but interesting in at least one respect: Cerberus is not just TIM. There are other minds possible, other motivations, other tactics. TIM was the originator with the manifesto but Oleg was the war strategist who operated largely separately, and you could go further with there being loyalists like Miranda was etc. Its definitely a possibility that there's others around that would not just 'let go' of Cerberus. Think post-WWII dramatic shadow/remnant Nazi organization media (HAIL HY---CERBERUS, FOR THE EMPE---FIRST ORDER). A point is even made in Citadel DLC that there specifically are people who are 'post/ex' Cerberus (Maya) but who continue to hold many of its ideals and many of its methods, even under a different name and process and affiliations.

 

Again, when I'm describing this stuff, I'm not necessarily endorsing or enjoying (at least all of) it. I just see it as possible.

 

To be clear, I'm thinking we're done with Cerberus as a big thing. What I think we may not be done with, if there's actually some link between this Udina+Council+Cerberus idea as true, is the continuation of many who don't take cooperation with aliens as given, but who stretch boundaries in order to encourage human supremacy. If they knew about an ark hidden by the Council, they'd put something in there, and it'd possibly stay there. There could be even people who hold the Cerberus logo but use it differently. Neo-Cerberus  .

 

But most of this is a whole other theory and/or guesswork. But you wanted an answer and this is it.

 

I think you are overanalyze that. This mission was written for shooting things on Citadel, shooting Udina to be specific. Bioware probably didn't have a plan for sequel until Citadel DLC.

 

That's partially why I included my sense of things from Citadel DLC. Bioware doesn't necessarily plan so far ahead, but it may also have creative minds that do discuss potential plans, and they may have an approach that looks at previous material and may go "Yes, that works in, lets do that." and/or "Okay, that doesn't work exactly as we used to have things, so lets adjust that so this can happen".

 

For example (not asserting this): discussions could have happened that were like "Udina may have had a specific event that turned him so quickly to such a degree against the Council, but the players don't need to know that in Shepard's story, so neither do we need to know exactly what that is until we choose to address it, if we do.", then months after release they go "Okay we have that ark idea more solidified, lets fit that in and have it work that Udina found out about it". This doesn't mean that Shepard's story (DIRECTLY) 'relates' to MEA, but just that the ME universe keeps a continuity. I mean, no MEA player would need to fully understand an 'Udina found out stuff' reference and all its previous context, but it can still exist in MEA, theoretically.

 

Listening to their stuff about 'what we need to know/don't need to know about the Reapers' made me feel like we might have got an annoying insight of their process; planning to only show some stuff, then internally discuss but not show other stuff, then actually later on figure out most of the things of later stuff down the line. Ark-whatever doesn't even have to be a solid plan of Bioware's in 2011, just a possibility and they can fill in gaps later if they want. We know for a fact that they did this approach about ME1, but we don't talk so much about them also doing it in ME2-ME3 in regards to any possibility of a ME4. Many of us just assume they did a 'torch the franchise and run' and leave it at that.

 

 

Damn humans. They have entire galaxy to war with, but noo, they need to bring up old conflicts.

 

Probably annoying to some players, but I don't have a problem with that concept. Just as long as it doesn't directly interfere with the existence of the 'new' (fresh) plot, Bioware can have all the involvement of 'old conflicts' that they want. I want a new story but I'm more than content with callbacks, direct and indirect, to the existence of the Milky Way's 'story' (aka having new conflicts have to do with the existence of old ones). You'll only see me complaining if it turns the Andromeda setting into Milky Way But We FUBARED It So We Put You Into New Boxed Area. But if the Ark is filled with a smaller selection of peoples that still have the memories/plans/perspective/etc of where they came from (see: my earlier stuff about possible new Cerberus-y characters), well, that's just juicy drama, in how they interact with the other arkmates and the new aliens and civilizations they discover.